Are They LD Issues or Is He Not Trying?

Of course they could be considered different. My kid is ADD. I was told by my kid’s doctor that ADD synptoms don’t always show up. If it is new, novel, or interesting then the kid probably wouldn’t show ADD symptoms. He would be able to concentrate with no trouble. (extracurricular activities) They are probably a lot of fun. If it is old, same, or boring then the ADD symptoms show up full force. (most school work) The student doesn’t get to pick and chose what he wants to do and what he doesn’t want to do.

I would think that it could also apply to LD. If the student finds it “fun”, he is going to try extra hard. If it is “boring” he just won’t be concentrating on it as much.

Your situation sounds just like ours. Our kiddo is 10 yr and in the 4th grade because of a late birthday. Our school connection started back in the first grade when he was writing letters and numbers backwards and struggles to get the phonic base being taught at the time. He qualified for Reading Recovery and Chapter 1 Reading but once this was over we got no where with the school. The “lable” for GT/LD is not stated the correct way for our son because the school personnel only hear the gifted and don’t ever get to the learning difficulties. Our son is dyslexic, dysgraphic and low level of ADD. He is not failing any classes but this year all his grades have dropped a whole letter. The third grade was the most frustrating because we had the principle telling us that he is pulling our leg. He to has extreme problems with organizational skills, short term memory, hand writing and comprehension. Unfortunately we have not ever suceeded in getting an IEP. His MFE was done back in second grade and showed discrepancies but not great enough for special education instruction. The solution at this time was a number and letter line on his desk and to write the numbers and letters once each night and this would solve the reversal problem. In the third and fourth grade the organizational skills have not developed as we had hoped. We tried to get teachers to cooperate by checking the assignment books before they came home and reminders for what was needed to complete it at home. Here again, because he has an outward personality and no discipline problems and appears on the outside very confident he should know better.

Can I ask you something? Does your son handle classroom frustrations well? How do the other kiddos treat him in school? We have our son in private counseling to help him deal with his learning difficulties and trying very hard to convince him that he is very smart, the learning process is just going to be a little different.

Our son is very athletic and likes any kind of sports. His counselor said that he needs to do lots of energy expending things because he keeps things bottled up inside all day long. It was put to me like this: Kiddo is like a jack-in-the-box with a broken crank. All day it goes round and round and the music plays and plays. When the kiddo gets home from school, because he knows that he is loved unconditionally, the jack-in-the-box jumps out. This is why you need to let him have the extra curricular activities.

Come to the chat room with the advocates on LDonline.com
They are great in helping with IEP meeting.

IT SOUNDS LIKE THE SCHOOL ALREADY HAS MADE UP THEIR MIND ON EXTRA RESOURCE. I WOULD GO IN AND REQUEST THAT THEY RE-TEST HIM IF THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO OFFER ADDITIONAL SERVICES. WHEN THEY USE THE TERMS HE “DID NOT” MABY IT IS TIME TO PUT THE BURDON OF PROOF ON THEM AND ASK THEM IS IT POSSIBLE THAT HE COULD NOT? WHEN A LD STUDENT IS OVERWHELMED AND POSSIBLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IS MOST LIKELY TO HAPPEN? GRADES FALL, BECOME DISORGANIZED ETC. AS FAR AS THE EXTRA ACTIVITIES ARE CONCERNED IS IT DOING MATH? PROBABLY NOT. AND REMEMBERING WHEN TO GO TO DAY CARE, AGAIN IT IS NOT MATH AND IT IS NOT WHERE HIS DISABILTY LIES. WHAT DO YOU THINK? MOMS INSTINCTS ARE USUALLY RIGHT ON. DO YOU SEE HIM STRUGGLING WITH ASSIGNMENTS? WHAT ABOUT THE TEACHER? DOES SHE SEE DURING A LESSON THAT HE IS NOT PAYING ATTENTION? MY SON IS LD IN WRITTEN EXPRESSION AND I THOUGHT THAT MABY HE WAS ADD AS WELL BUT HE IS NOT. “ZONING OUT” IS A CHARACTERISTIC OF LD KIDS WHEN THEY ARE ON OVERLOAD. IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING IS GOING ON. LIKE I SAID PUT THE BURDON ON THE SCHOOL. IT IS UP TO THEM TO MAKE SURE HE IS NOT HAVING ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS. IT IS NOT UP TO YOU TO PROVE THAT HE IS. DON’T BACK DOWN IF YOU FEEL IT IS RIGHT. YOU ARE YOUR SONS BIGGEST AND SOMETIMES ONLY ADVOCATE. GOOD LUCK!

They’re totally different issues to me too and I’m disappointed in this guidance counselor. What does failing math have to do with remembering when to go to day care? They’re very different skill sets.

I’d also say in my years of teaching, I’ve never met a young child who chooses not to do well in school. Young children simply aren’t programmed by nature to make that kind of a choice. Young children want to please the adults around them, their parents and their teachers. Sometimes the circumstances of their lives discourage them to the point where they cannot muster any kind of effort but barring that, young kids usually put their best foot forward.

Has your son best tested? As you know him to be Gt/Ld, he has. What did the testing show? How can the guidance counselor look past the testing?

what does your son say is going on? Ten year olds are remarkably perceptive about themselves if given the opportunity sometimes. While I agree with Sara that there are few children who purposely sabotage themselves in school, it does happen, and I would be willing to leave the possibility open that this behavior might be intentional in the sense that he is trying to tell people something.

Regarding the difference in extracurricular and school activities- the skills aren’t different- but the level of intensity and motivation certainly is. Organization is organization, be it work or play. If you are not organized- then you probably aren’t organized anywhere very well. We have different stages in the development of organizational skills and it might be that your son hasn’t quite worked it out for managing the workload in this class. But he does have skills and it isn’t unreasonable to expect him to use them.

I would ask him.

Robin

Thanks for your reply.

I get mixed signals as to how my son is doing socially. He tells me he has a lot of friends. But then again, he also says that he jumps rope a lot at recess because he has no one to pal around with. He is not athletic, so that cuts out a lot of easy-to-join-in acitvities he could do at recess.

The recess activity that he faithfully attends is peer mediation. This capitalizes on his verbal skills, which are very strong. This is completely different from remembering to turn in assignments and bring a math book to class. The other activity involves computer animation, which also calls on another completely different set of skills.

I am not familiar with the chat room. It’s on this site? How do I access it?

LJ

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Yes, he has been tested. He has a VIQ of 134 and PIQ of 86. To me it’s a no-brainer that with scores like these, my son is bound to show issues with organization and have inconsistent performance in school. I truly don’t understand the counselor’s attitude.

LJ

Look at the skills themselves. “Showing up prepared” — is that as involved for the extracurricular activity? Or, perhaps, does it involve bringing the exact same stuff each time? And, how *does* he remember that stuff? Does he take that step (and remember to take it) of going through a “what do I need today” inventory before he leaves for school? Would it be possible to do the same kind of mental inventory for regular class?

If it were me, I’d be more likely to remember all things associated with after school and extra curricular, because they have a big impact on where I go that day. Bringing stuff for class — class has been happening every day… forever. So I don’t think, in the mrning, “oh, today is EC day.” I sure don’t think, “Oh, today I’m going to have Math.” I’ve had math for a hundred years.

But… maybe I could learn to walk through my schedule in my mind in the morning — or have it taped to the back of my cereal box.

And perhaps you could try to convince the school folks that yes, you and the kiddo are willing to “try” — and try various strategies — but that services at school would be helpful as well; perhaps also include your plan for getting the independence skills *not* to need them any more, too. Right now, it sounds like he’s not learning math because of disorganization. Is he learning organization even? Folks sometimes, somehow believe that failure is what kids will respond to… and actually they’re right sometimes (just not that often). Report cards *can* make a kiddo willing to try something new that he “didn’t need” before. However, what’s he supposed to be learning int he meantime — is he supposed to sacrifice that? If services will mean that while he’s “catching up” with the org skills, he can also be keeping up with the math skills, then it sounds like a good thing. If it’s only the grades hurting — that he’s getting all the skills, but it’s not counting in the grade because homeworks aren’t getting in, etc. — then I’d ask for some kind of assessment of his skills that would go on his report card to say exactly what the “grade” was assessing, and get them to include in writing something about not keeping him from continuing to advance.

THis may make no sense, since I haven’t had my tea yet…

I was curious too and did ask my son because I sometimes have trouble keeping track of his activities (and my daughter’s). He just said, “Mom, you just know because of what day it is.” My daughter (no LD issues) was there and echoed the same sentiments. It’s a common sense kind of thing for both of them.

I have noticed that when there’s a change in routine, he’s very concerned with finding what will happen and when it will happen for the day, and what he’s expected to do that day.

It’s like he has macro level life skills, but at the micro level, they break down.

Math requires a level of organization that he simply does not have at this point. He really does try. He changes class for math, so he has to remember to bring his binder, a pencil, his homework, and his book. Classwork has to be labeled as classwork and must include his name and the date. Classwork is handed in the next day and must be stapled with that night’s homework labeled as homework with the date. If the date is not included, no credit is given. If the assignment is not done in the manner assigned (even if the answers are correct), no more than half credit is given. My son also has CAPD issues, so he sometimes misses verbal cues, such as when to hand in an assignment and when to get out the math book and begin working. He has a very difficult time when there is a substitute and the routine is different(which is at least once a week, usually more frequently). Almost certainly, he will not hand in the assignment or write the assignment down. The teacher says that he pays attention and participates meaningfully in class. He can do the work. He can’t measure up to the organizational requirements.

LJ

Thanks. The reply was helpful, even without the a.m. tea.

Showing up prepared for the extracurriculars are not as nearly involved as being prepared for class. For peer mediation, he needs to remember his T-shirt. He does this (AAAAkkkkkkk) by never bringing the T-shirt home (one can only imagine what it looks like at this point, but he won’t risk bringing it home). It stays in his cubby. A couple of weeks ago, he spent hours at home working on some drawings for his after school computer activity. True to form, he forgot to put them in his backpack and bring them to school. He then had to quickly draw something in its place. The LD issues show up in subtle ways in the extracurricular activities.

I am always willing to try a new strategy at home. Generally, he’s doing what he needs to do at home, but then is not getting support he needs in school, so assignments etc., don’t get written down or turned in.

LJ

Wow. Neither do I. That’s a remarkable difference between visual and performance. How does the counselor explain that? I agree with you. It is routine to expect issues with organization among other things when you have a deep split in IQ like that.

Do you have a school psychologist?

The school psychologist is the one who tested him and obtained these results. She has not contributed much to the meetings—she knows who butters her toast. She didn’t label him GT/LD, despite the scores. I got the test results in a review meeting and I looked at them and said, “Wow, these results show that he’s GT/LD! He qualifies for the Center program.” Everyone at the meeting quickly disagreed, saying that the kids in the GT/LD center program had severe behavior issues and that I wouldn’t want to enroll my son in the program. This past summer, I had more testing done privately. The results also showed that he was GT/LD and the report labeled him as such. I also visited the elementary level center program and the middle school level center program and these kids were just like my son and did not have any worse issues than he does. It’s that the program only allows a max of 15 kids per grade, so it’s tough to get in. Lot’s of gatekeeping,etc. Any suggestions you can provide would be very appreciated.

LJ

Can you explain how a split in IQ, with performance being much lower, influences organization?

Have you ever heard of Non-verbal Learning Disability? Your son sounds much like mine, including the VIQ/PIQ spread. (BTW, I don’t think it was you who made the mistake, but someone called this “visual” IQ… It’s actually verbal vs. performance.

I heard the same things you are hearing this year all last year. I actually had a guidance councilor tell me that maybe a little failure would motive him. They put him on a “behavior contract”, not because he was doing anything disruptive, but because he wasn’t getting his work done in school. They took away his recess time and computer time, and told him he’d have to “earn” it back by completing his work. Since he knew he COULD’T complete his work, he simply adusted to the fact that he would never have recess or computer time for the rest of the year.

Finally, a group of these “behavior” forms came home to me, and I saw a number of days where not one single thing had been listed under work completed. I called and asked whether this meant that he hadn’t filled out the form, or whether he really hadn’t done ANYTHING all day long. I was told that he hadn’t done any work at all on those days. He sat quietly at his desk, managed to look busy, and got NOTHING done. I hit the roof. I asked them what, in Heavens name I was sending him to school for, if they weren’t managing to get him to do ANYTHING all day long. Worse, I was then spending 3 hours a night on homework with him.

The school refused to do much, though they did ask the classroom aid to help him keep on task from time to time. During the summer, we had a private Neuropsych eval, and first learned about NLD. The Neuropsych came to school with us for his team meeting at the beginning of school, to answer any questions the school staff had. She had made a very complete list of recommendations for supports and accomodations for him. Fortunately, they listened to her.

He is now on an appropriate IEP, and with proper accomodations and just a small amount of SPED help (30 minutes daily in the regular classroom) he is doing great. It took some training as far as the teachers were concerned, but we provided literature on NLD to all concerned. Of course it helped that we had a teacher who was very willing to learn about NLD, as she had never heard of it before either.

He still needs organizational help, and probably will for many more years than the average kid. But he _is_ getting better at it. More importantly, because he is not so overwhelmed, he is doing very good work, and feeling more confident in his abilities. Success breeds success, and he’s producing more as well as better work.

NLD kids tend to do worse and worse as the complexity of work increases unless they are appropriately accomodated. By the time they are teenagers, if they haven’t received the help they need they have been so beaten down by the system that they are at serious risk for depression and even suicide. With appropriate accomodations and supports they can do very, very well.

Can you talk to the person who did your private eval and ask if they are familiar with NLD? If they are not, try to find someone who is. If you want to read more about it and see if it fits your son, you can visit NLDontheweb.org. There are a number of good articles on the site, and links to many more.

Karen

Well- my first thought was that I am not sure that I could measure up to those organizational requirements either- I know I would have been sunk when I was ten - and I am not LD that I am aware of. What precisely is all this excruciating detail teaching students I wonder.

I agree with all the other respondants- the psych is singularly unaware and your child needs support with organization. Someone could check his assignment book at the end of the day and make sure what needs to be there is there, and then check him in again in the morning if needed. He could have different colored folders for each class- actually some schools require this anyway- or a three ring binder with dividers and his own personal hole puncher. There is a lot that can be done. LD InDepth has some really good articles on this.

Good luck…
Robin

Karen,
It sounds like you have made great progress. Could you share what some of those recommendations and supports where? I also have a ten year old in middle school who has a large discrepency in his visual/auditory. We have just completed is IEP and I am always looking for new things to try.
Thanks,
Sue

Well remember, NLD isn’t necessarily a discrepancy between visual and auditory, you often (though not always) see a discrepancy between verbal and performance. (although most NLD kids _are_ better auditory learners) Besides _usually_ having the VIQ/PIQ split, they usually have problems in 3 different areas. Visual/spatial, motor, and social. The ones that don’t have bigger social problems often do very well in early grades because of strong vocabulary, decoding and spelling skills. (all the areas that schools focus on in the early grades)

As they get older, they have trouble with problem solving and inferential comprehension. The combination of fine motor and visual/spatial problems often makes written work a nightmare, and their lack of ability to read non-verbal communication leads to more and more misunderstandings and social problems.

My son’s IEP states that ALL instructions must be given verbally, and he is to rephrase them and explain what needs to be done. NLD kids are often great parrots, and can repeat something word for word without having a clue what it means, or having completely misunderstood something that wasn’t carefully and clearly explained. They take instructions absolutely literally, and are masters of misunderstanding ANYTHING that can possibly be misunderstood. He also can’t follow a series of instructions without prompts. More than two in a row, and you’ll lose him.

Obviously, standard LD things are included such as preferential seating. (particularly important in his case as he also has a hearing loss in one ear) He is not expected to finish all written work if he shows he knows the material, and we have found that work that he is not required to finish has to be taken out of his desk by a teacher or he gets very stressed about it piling up. (He really WANTS to do his work!) If he takes a test and doesn’t do well, particularly on essay questions, the teacher will usually orally re-test him to see if he really does know the material.

This particular teacher is wonderful about providing detailed rubrics for all long-term assignments to all the kids in the class, but it is written into his IEP that these must be provided if it is not a standard classroom practice.

Homework is limited to a maximum of 40 minutes a night, and should be done pretty independently. If it takes longer, I we make a decision together. Sometimes he WANTS to finish it, and I let him. If he seems to be getting frustrated, we put it away, and it goes back to school with a note for either the teacher or the SPED teacher to go over it with him. This has made a HUGE difference this year. We no longer battle over homework. He does it willingly and quickly, because he knows that there is an end in sight. No more 3 hour homework marathons thank you!

Either the classroom teacher or an aid helps him organize what he needs to bring home, and makes sure his assignments are written down. (he has trouble copying from the blackboard because of the visual/spatial thing) In the beginning of the year they did it for him, but now he’s mostly doing it by himself and they check it to make sure he doesn’t miss anything. They also help him keep his desk organized. He has an agenda that goes back and forth daily with his assignments and a space for notes from the teacher to me and vice versa.

His SPED time is in the classroom, and is focused primarily on two areas right now. She helps him with math, particularly word problems and geometry, both of which are very difficult for him. They also spend a fair amount of time on inferential comprehension, going back over things that he reads and write to find the real POINT of the material instead of the trivial details he often focuses on. (He can tell you what everyone ate at every meal in the entire book, but can’t often tell you what the main problem was. Similarly, he can list every character in the book, but can’t tell you who the MAIN characters are)

The SPED teacher is in the classroom half the day, and there’s an aid for the other half of each day. They both help several kids on IEP’s, and will also work with other children who have a problem in some area, so that the SPED kids don’t feel singled out in any way. I dont think he even realizes that he gets help that other kids don’t.

He has a pragmatics skills “lunch bunch” once a week with the guidance councillor and 2 other kids. He loves it because she makes it fun, and it also keeps him out of the lunch room, which is pretty overwhelming for an NLD kid. The IEP also calls for the teachers to keep an eye on him to watch for bullying. It also requires all school staff that have contact with him to read material (that we have provided) on NLD.

They also keep a closer eye on him getting on and off the bus than most kids because he has a habit of not noticing his bus stop and forgetting to get off. He missed the bus home one day too, and I think they’re watching to make sure that doesn’t happen again either. He’s the first stop getting off the bus, so the bus driver just uses that as an excuse to get him to sit up front where it’s easy for her to make sure that he DOES get off.

I have to say that I think we are very, very lucky to have teachers who actually have taken his IEP to heart and have made it their business to learn about NLD. Most of the accomodations in his IEP would be very difficult to enforce if a teacher decided they just weren’t going to bother.

Karen

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Do you have a chance to observe the playground during school without him knowing? You can see for your self. I did this. Talk to other parents in his class, usually there is at least one or two that are right where he is too. Let them ask their child about your child. We were also told that swimming is a good activity for this type of child because it used alot of energy and you don’t have to do it for competiton.

Does your son have an IEP? or receive any services from the school?

Let me know by my e-mail.
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