help! how to pace math curr.

We used Saxon in the beginning as well and were also with a school. I tried to push and he hated math. Here is what we did.

1. All problems orally at first.

2. 1 problem on a page, then 2 until we got up to 4. I would draw strong black lines on the paper dividing it into 4 equal parts. This is the only written math he did, the rest was oral. So we kept up with the lessons by talking through the problems.

3. We got up to doing 6 problems on a page.

4. This year, after 2 years, he is now doing 15 problems at a time with the rest orally. We are still working on getting a whole lesson done, but we feel great about our progress and he is two years ahead of where he is supposed to be.

I would have to say his self esteem is great. He feels like he can really do math. He does it on his own without me asking him. Some days he tells me he really can’t handle it and we do it all orally. We use all sorts of books, including Saxon as a base and adding other problems that I like. I particularly like the mathwordproblems.com site and use it a lot. Please don’t push because I think the whole idea is that they love it. If he can’t do it on paper, that doesn’t mean he can’t do it. Remember that Einstein couldn’t do math on paper either.

Saxon doesn’t work for a lot of children. You can find out a lot about it (and about other math programs) on the Reading & Math homeschooling board at vegsource.com

When I was doing some research, I ran across a professional teacher’s site (ERIC, I think) and saw comments indicating Saxon is heavily weighted on the side of computation, at the expense of concept development.

From what I have seen of Saxon, it is very oriented to sequential learners (the type who thrive in traditional classroom settings). My dd is a “big picture” learner. She does best when she first understands a concept, and then starts filling in the big picture with details. A sequential learner is able to learn one detail at a time, gradually creating a big picture. “Big picture” learners find this type of approach boring, which makes retention extremely difficult.

We started with Math-U-See, which is strong on concept development but weak on computation. Recently we have switched to Singapore Math, which we find much easier to do. Singapore seems to offer us the ideal balance between concept development and computation. The website allows you to view sample pages from the books. Singapore uses two textbooks (A and B) per level, and two workbooks per textbook. The textbooks are colorful and are designed to be worked on with an adult, to develop concepts. The textbook tells you when to do the workbook exercises, which are done pretty much independently by the child. My dd’s skills have benefited greatly from this approach! Singapore levels start about a year ahead of U.S. schools, so typically you need to drop back at least one level when you are changing from a U.S. curriculum. There are online tests that can help you decide which level to start with. Website is http://www.singaporemath.com

Mary

Thank you guys so much for your help. The main problem we are having with Saxon (because of his LD) is that new concepts keep being added before he really has the previous concepts mastered. I’m starting to wish I hadn’t moved away from Math-U-See because I like the way that it kept you with a skill until mastery, THEN you moved on.

Mary, I am very interested in learning more about Singapore. How are the concepts learned? Does the textbook explain each concept? What is the textbook like? Thanks for your help!

Nadine

I was wondering if it was you, Nadine!

You can see sample pages at the website. Concepts are presented in the colorful textbooks. The approach is very visual in the textbooks, and this is enough for a lot of children, but you can supplement with manipulatives if necessary. The textbook is very self-explanatory and incremental. Basically, the parent works with the child in the textbook, working on concept development, until the textbook indicates it’s time to move to the workbook.

The workbook is done pretty much independently by the child, although you can hang around to help as needed. The workbook presents a wide variety of problems requiring application of the concept just covered. The workbook is *very* incremental for the child. My dd needed some help with the first workbook she did, because she wasn’t used to the wide variety of presentation, but after awhile she became almost totally independent with it.

Singapore is actually easier to use than Math-U-See. One of the major benefits over MUS is the number and variety of problems in the workbook. Also, SM is very strong on word problems. They do a lot with one-step word problems and then subtly start introducing two-step word problems. My dd had a lot of difficulty with word problems, and the workbooks have eliminated all of that.

Singapore is very incremental in its approach, and very concept-oriented. As with MUS, first you master the concept, then you practice applying it. If your son needs more practice than the workbook provides (hard to imagine, but it’s possible!) there are several supplemental problem books you can buy at the same level, so he can work additional problems before moving onto the next concept.

The complaint I have heard about Saxon is that it over-teaches the mechanics of problem solving. It may be that your son is not grasping the concept because it’s not being presented in enough depth before the mechanics are introduced.

You could buy just one textbook and one workbook of Singapore Math (you can pretty much tell which level to start with from the contents on the website) for about $20 including postage. If you place them side by side with a Saxon math book, I think you will be astounded by the difference in approach.

We are extremely happy to have found Singapore and recommend it highly. Just wish we’d started out with it!

Mary

one textbook and the two workbooks that go with it. You get a package price that way, and the set constitutes one full semester of math — not counting supplemental materials you might want to add in. (Can’t remember the exact names of the supplemental materials now, but you can probably find them in the product descriptions.)

Mary

Thanks so much for the info! About how much time each day does Singapore suggest for it’s lessons? One of our problems with Saxon is that, especially for as many times as I have to redirect my adhd/bp son, the lessons take at least 1 1/2 hours which is just too much.

Thanks!
Nadine

I would agree that 1-1/2 hours is too much!

We have just been doing the Level 2 workbooks without the textbook. (I don’t recommend this. Thought it would provide a lot of review, which it did, but the textbooks would have been valuable too.) However, I am pulling out our Level 3B package to look at. SM doesn’t really provide a time-frame. In general, you can figure that SM level 3 is around U.S. grade 4, and that a SM level will cover somewhat more material in greater depth than a regular U.S. grade level.

Level 3B textbook would cover half a year of work (one semester). It looks as if you do 1 to 2 pages of the textbook at a time, and then a workbook exercise (which is usually about 4 pages). I see that later on in the textbook, when it comes to graphs, there are 4 pages of textbook before they break for a workbook exercise.

I don’t have the Level 1 books, which is where you would probably be starting (although K level is good also, I hear). I’ve heard that Level 1 is more like U.S. grade 2 in terms of material covered.

However, in general, it seems to me you could cover the textbook material in well under 1/2-hour per day. Since your son is already used to Saxon, I can’t imagine one workbook lesson would take more than 1/2-hour per day. (My dd can do a workbook lesson in level 2 in anywhere from 5 minutes to 25 minutes, depending on difficulty and her attention level that day.) At that rate, you should be able to cover an entire level in 9 months or 12 months, no problem.

You may find that you need to re-direct your son less with Singapore. SM textbooks are colorful, and both textbooks and workbooks use a lot of visual representations that tend to capture and hold attention.

Also, you could break up the lessons. Shorter sessions sometimes work better for my dd, although she’s getting better. For example, you could spend 10 or 20 minutes at most on the textbook, take a break to toss a ball around a bit, and then have him do the workbook exercise — with a reward when he finishes. I have found that breaking things into smaller bits like this, with easily-attainable rewards for each step, help dd get through those days when she’s tired and her attention and attitude leave much to be desired.

Mary

You might want to just order a Level 1A set (one textbook and two workbooks) to get an in-depth look at it. I think the set is about $25 and, if you don’t like it, it should be very easy to sell on the For Sale homeschooling boards at vegsource (but I think you could also just return it to the company).

I just think that — once you get a good look at it — you will really like it. It’s easier on both the parent and the child than any other math program I have looked at, plus the child gets more math out of it than anything else I have seen — both concepts and computation.

Mary (off to the dentist’s office for two hours…groan….)

After looking at the web site, I am totally sold on SM. I looked at the testing and decided to put my son in 5B and 6A for next year. Do you recommend buying both at the same time, buying the workbooks and text books and what about the supplemental material. I am so bad at buying books we don’t end up using. Also, have you tried their science series. It looks pretty neat as well.
Karen

I’m actually thinking of getting their Kindergarten level because I think part of why we are having trouble with Saxon is that we are using a level that it too advanced. I can’t remember where, but seem like somewhere I have read people’s concern about Singapore not teaching money with “American” money and other such things. Mary, do you know anything about this? Thanks!!

Nadine

Hi,
We’re in Canada and using Singapore math. The pictures of money don’t look like US or Canadian currency, but my son finds it fun to look at the different kinds of coins and I use real money for practice (he loves that). All the math problems, though, are in dollars and cents, just like the US. The only other problem you may have is the use of the metric system for measurement. (Not a problem here, we went metric years ago!) My eight year old is working through the level 2b books and really likes them.

Ana

they had a swap board here:)!

http://www.vegsource.com/homeschool/

in case you are looking!

Mary

As Ana mentioned, the money difference is really a non-issue.

Singapore uses the metric system, but it’s pretty easy to supplement with our outmoded feet, yard, inches, pounds. Measurement isn’t addressed a whole lot until Level 2. At that point, it’s very easy to supplement with something like Key To Measurements, which is a set of 4 workbooks dealing entirely with measurements — starting with the very basics and working up through high school level. There are other Key To sets that are useful for supplementation — Key To Fractions, Decimals, Percents, Geometry, etc. (Most inexpensive source for them I’ve found is http://www.rainbowresource.com)

These and other minor differences from our math notation — in large numbers they use periods instead of commas, and with time they write 8.10 instead of our 8:10 — don’t seem to pose a problem.

Mary

I would just buy a set of the 5B textbook and 5B workbook (at that level, there is only one workbook per textbook) to start. If you can save on shipping costs by buying 6A at the same time, that’s fine. Most children do not need the supplementary materials, as there are plenty of problems in the workbooks. One set of supplementary materials (forgot the name) provides many additional problems, and another set is basically tests. I’d hold off on those unless you find out your child really needs them.

One thing people have mentioned is that older children often have difficulty adjusting to Singapore. It is usually recommended that older children be taken back to Level 3 (actually, I think it’s 3B) as that is when Singapore introduces some really important concepts used throughout the course later. If you can afford it, I would recommend starting at Level 3 for a thorough review. You might be able to get away with just the workbooks for levels 3 and 4 (although I have found disadvantages to not getting the textbooks too, even when the workbooks are primarily for review purposes). If it’s *way* simple for your child, you can be selective about which problems are worked. This way, you don’t miss the critical exposure to concepts which are taken for granted later on. Textbooks are re-sellable, if that makes a difference.

There are a lot of people with Singapore Math experience over on the Reading and Math homeschooling bulletin board at http://www.vegsource.com. You might want to ask over there about the best way to switch into Singapore with an older student.

Mary

I’m so impressed with the Singapore website and it looks like something that would really appeal to my ds. I’m definitely going to order it and give it a go. Boy, that is one of the real beauties of homeschooling….if something isn’t working you can try something else and not be stuck with a curriculum like in public schools. Thanks you guys so much for all of your help.

Nadine

Ooops…I forgot to ask…where do I find the “Key To…” workbooks?

Thanks!
Nadine

http://www.rainbowresource.com, which is the most inexpensive I’ve found. If you buy from their online catalog, be sure to ask in the comments section for a copy of their printed catalog. It’s great!

You won’t need Key To Measurements until about level 2 Singapore. There are 4 workbooks in the Measurement set. It’s cheaper to buy all 4 as a set, but this spans something like Grades 1 through middle school or higher.

Mary

Oops. Forgot to post about that. The Science series gets raves too. At the moment you can’t get Level 3 Science as they are re-vamping it. The problem with Levels 4 and 5 (and soon, Level 6) is that they are out of Teacher’s Manuals — stopped publishing them because they are re-vamping all the science levels. You can do Singapore Science without the TM’s. However, the textbooks and workbooks are written pretty simplistically (in keeping with the idea that students read comfortably for comprehension a couple of grades below their instructional reading level). The TM’s are written for the *teacher’s* reading level and go into depth about the concepts and ideas that are being learned — and also a much greater level of detail, so that the teacher can answer questions that come up.

Mary

Miquon is supposed to be terrific at developing concepts and math creativity in the early grades. Several people have started using it alongside Singapore. In fact, there’s a chart at http://www.singmath.com/SM_Miquon.htm
that shows where in Singapore to break off and do the related Miquon exercises.

Miquon doesn’t work with some kids, but most love it. My understanding is it involves a lot of creative exploration of math concepts.

I just ordered the Miquon set from Rainbow Resource even though my dd is 10yo and considered rather old for it. According to the chart, Miquon exercises can supplement Singapore Math through Level 4A, so I figure it’s worth getting for us. (The chart starts with Level 1A, I think.)

Just as an aside, dd is in 4th grade this year. The charter school she attends mornings did IOWA testing in October and again in April of this year, scoring both tests using end-of-4th grade standards (it’s a brand new school that welcomes challenged students, and they want to be able to document progress). We homeschool math, and I started using Singapore Level 2A workbooks around Christmas time, after she finished MUS Foundations. (Dd still hasn’t finished the 2B-part 2 workbook.) Anyway, she went from 6th percentile to 38th percentile in Concepts/Estimation, from 22nd percentile to 78th percentile in Problems/Data Interpretation, and from 12th percentile to 65th percentile in Math Total. Also, her Math Computation score went from 2nd percentile to 33rd percentile. I *love* Singapore Math!

Mary

Wow Mary - congratulations to your dd and to you! Thanks for sharing the progress you dd experienced with Singapore math!

Blessings, momo

Hi Mary,
Your posts are a wealth of information!
I have just ordered Singapore Math (haven’t received it yet) for my 8 yr old ds. I’ve been reading the posts regarding using Miquon in combination with SM on the other boards, and I can’t decide if I should go ahead with Miquon too. I have MUS and we weren’t able to progress very far with it over the last year, but now since doing Audiblox for the last 19 weeks, my son is learning his math very quickly. (It’s amazing how easy everything is coming for him since we started Audiblox!). He is a visual learner and I do have the manipulatives from MUS. Do you know if Miquon would be good in this situation and if so, would I still need the cuisonaire(sp?) rods, or can I substitute with MUS manipulatives? Also, as we haven’t made it to the end of MUS, do you think MUS and SM could be combined effectively rather than Miquon?
Thanks again Mary, I love your posts!
Wendy

Your posts really have been wonderful and I can’t tell you how much they are appreciated. Now I know what to do instead of just worrying.

Thanks!
Nadine

Wendy,

I haven’t gotten our Miquon set yet. However, my experience with MUS manipulatives and Cuisenaire rods is that they are not very compatible. The biggest problem is that they use entirely different colors for the different rod lengths. All of the books written to be used with Cuisenaire that I have seen specify colors frequently, and I expect the same to be true of Miquon. You would have to carefully “translate” every color in the exercises, which could add confusion to a page that may already be challenging for the child. Also, the rod lengths are not compatible. Some of the exercises I have for Cuisenaire have rod lengths printed on the paper, and the child selects the correct rod for the diagram. This kind of exercise wouldn’t work well with MUS rods, which are considerably bigger. (However, I don’t know if Miquon has these kinds of diagrammatic problems.)

I know that some people over at vegsource combine MUS with Singapore. Usually, they use Singapore as the primary program and supplement with MUS strategies only when necessary to get a concept across. It really doesn’t make sense to do the two programs side-by-side because they follow completely different sequences of development. Supplementation with MUS makes sense, as MUS is *very* good in certain areas (such as introduction to place value, and skip-counting).

I am getting Miquon because it sounds as if it rounds out early levels of Singapore by providing creative exploration of concepts. MUS is good at teaching certain concepts, but it doesn’t provide a lot of student exploration — which is what I am expecting from Miquon, based on posts from other parents. (I have seen posts that say children who are perfectionistic and/or obssessive do not do well with Miquon. The creative exploration upsets them, and/or they get confused by finding out there are multiple ways to solve a problem. Children who do best with a single, set way to solve a problem may not respond well to Miquon.)

I think the least expensive route would be to order the Miquon package and basic Cuisenaire rod set from http://www.rainbowresource.com. The Miquon complete set there is MIQSET for $37.75 (includes all student workbooks and the lab annotations book for the teacher). The 155 “No Frills” wooden Cuisenaire rods with sorting tray are #008265 for $15.95. Shipping would be about 12% (10% if you order $100 worth of stuff).

I had rods already because I had ordered the “Mathematics Made Meaningful” kit. This would be a possibility too, as the activity cards that come with MMM are excellent. But *three* early math approaches are too much for us! One thing I like about Singapore and Miquon is that somebody else has already figured out how to combine them via that chart link I posted — big help to me, as I would rather spend that extra 10 minutes a day actually working with my daughter on math instead of trying to figure out what to do next. However, we might pick out some of the MMM cards on a rainy day for fun.

Mary

Mary