Speech therapy or Remedial reading therapy???

I’m not an expert in this area, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

If I were in your situation, I would find a different private SLP. LiPS should be done intensively. Furthermore, it does not need to be done by an SLP at SLP rates. I would find a good SLP who will actually work on the receptive and expressive language problems. Once the language problems have been remediated somewhat, you can find an LMB tutor for LiPS if that is the reading remediation approach you want to use.

I have a friend whose daughter did LiPS with an SLP once a week. It did absolutely no good. This girl did end up being fully remediated in reading — via Orton Gillingham for many years. She still has some difficulty processing spoken language.

As an aside, has your son been tested for auditory processing disorders? In cases where APD is present, I consider it important to introduce sound therapies as well.

One method of working on language at home is to record a story (or purchase a recording) and have the child listen to the same recording over and over. You can even have the child carry around a portable tape player or CD player. This repeated listening to structured language can help establish grammatical patterns and improve listening comprehension.

Nancy

Have you considered Fast Forward? My son made more progress with receptive language in months of FFW than he did in years of speech therapy. He was 1.5 SD below the mean before FFW and has tested somewhat above average ever since.

You can be the provider. It is pricey—near $1000 but that is only 10 hours of speech therapy at the rates you are paying. I am sure you would get more bang for the buck.

Some have reported success with LIPS twice a week but certainly once a week is not frequent enough.

My son learned to read with Reading REflex which we then followed up with Seeing Stars.

Beth

I believe that what you feel inside is either “right” or “wrong”. I really felt good about sending my son to a private SLP. But now……..I am re-considering.

I think having a SLP everyday for 5 days a week would definatly do the trick. But…once a week for 45 min? (the last 15 min they play), I just am not feeling good about this. For $100.00 / hour…….and dont’ get me wrong, I am financially secure, but it “erks” me that just to speak to my childs teachers, she is charging $100.00 it makes me feel as though it is the “MONEY”. I know everyone has to make money, and money is great, but for gosh sakes, you are going to my son’s school 10 min away …..why are you charging me $100.00?? I paid it, but it really put a bad taste in mouth.
I can send my son to a private clinic for $45.00 / hour and this clinic is a very well known clinic (in Canada - The Reading Foundation), and the director of the school uses PG / LiPS and V/V. or I can keep him going with the SLP. Just a little confused.

I like Beth’s idea of FastForWord (possibly preceded by TLP?). You are much more likely to see results with that therapy than with LiPS once a week with an SLP.

Not all SLPs are like the one you got. I would suspend therapy with this one and look for another.

Nancy

From your description it sounds like she wasn’t up front about the cost of those visits until she asked for the big check, and right now thank you, forget an invoice. If that’s truly the way this lady works I think I’d be shopping — and yes, programs such as LiPS work *much* more effectively when done intensively. You’re retraining the mind to process information differently — so one day of retraining followed by SIX of doing things the way you have always done it sort of makes it hard to make efficient progress. It’s not like learning, say, music theory.

We didn’t do The Listening Program before Fast Forward as Nancy suggests, but if I had to do it all over again, I would have. We did it later and it did help with auditory processing and may have made FFW easier (it took us 4 months to get through the program).

If you want to stick to reading instruction, I certainly would take the well known reading clinic over the slt. Realize though that the conventional wisdom seems to be that potential for reading is equal to receptive language—in other words, you can’t read what you can’t understand.

We did FFW before we did Phonographix. I won’t tell you it was a piece of cake then. It wasn’t. He has been a tough cookie. But after FFW, we did have his receptive language skills in place.

Beth
So if he is behind in expresive language, I’d address that first d

So, you are suggesting Fast Foward first? Not PG?
I asked my son’s SLP about FastFoward, because we are actually using Earobics at home that she gave us. She told me that FF is great, but Earobics is very similiar and muvh less expensive. So she pretty much told me to stick with the Earobics. My son seems to fly through it.

Is FF something that I can do at home?

I talked to a few others and I think what I will do is finish off with his Speech by middle of December (seeing as how that is what we agreed on).

Well, I suggested FFW because you said your son’s receptive and expressive language was an issue. FFW and Earobics have similarities. FFW though slows down language artificially using computer technology and then speeds it up as the child suceeds. FFW has more sentence structure with it than Earobics. Earobics is more just phonological awareness.

Your son obviously has better phonological skills than mine did. My son could not do Earobics before FFW. Your son probably does not need FFW for phonological processing, which was what your slt told you.

Can your son do the auditory processing test in the reading reflex book? If he can, I would try PG, if your goal is to get him reading. If he can’t, I’d do The Listening Program and then PG. I found a big difference before and after in ability to manipulate sounds with TLP.

There are other reasons to use FFW (receptive language being one) but a child who can easily do Earobics probably does not need FFW to learn to read. My son could not distinguish sounds at all before FFW (which is why he could not do Earobics).

Beth

My son did the “part” one of the auditory processing test fine, which consisted of the 3 letters. But became confused with the rest. Now I was not sure how much help I can give him (if any), but I when it became difficult I brought out the alphabet magnets. I had to show him first because he was not understanding what I was asking of him.
He was great with the Blending test, but the Auditory test was difficult for him. Also the phoneme segmenting became difficult when there was a word with more than 4 letters. Like in the word “black”, he was not hearing the L sound in it. Again the Code knowledge was also very difficult when it came to sounds like eg; Flew / knew or each / teach

We are trying to practice every night, but he can become very fustrated and unattentive, which causes fustration with me as well.

How old is your son and what grade is he in?

Beth

He is in grade 3 (8.5 yrs old), He was diagnosed with Mild cognitive disabilities in grade 1, he did the WISK III and scored very low with a 74
He has ADD and apraxia of speech

I think I now remember you. Your son did the PG program at the clinic last summer and didn’t make as much progress as you had hoped.

I think you son is having trouble learning. Now the lower IQ is probably part of it but not necessarily the whole story. I guess I would try The Listening Program. It can’t hurt and it may make learning easier. It is also painless—which FFW is not. Then go back to Earobics.

Agape mom posted some resources she has found that are more incremental than PG. I would look into those also. Perhaps the clinic did not take things in small enough steps for your son.

I am unsure how FFW would impact his language development, given the lower IQ. You might try the FFW people and ask what their experience has been. My son’s IQ actually tested 84 before FFW and 99 afterwards. That is because before FFW he couldn’t follow the directions on the performance part of the IQ test. I presume that testing other than IQ was done before he was labeled as having mild cognitive disabilities.

Beth

Yep that was my son. No, he did not make the progress I had hoped for, but maybe my expectations were a little to high. He did go up a grade level in a lot of the catagories after the post testing. So, I guess I should look at the little picture and not the big one.

I think my son needs more of one on one specialized tutoring. He needs more repetition. This private SLP went to my son’s school to ask if they can work with him maybe for 5 min out of the day with some stuff she is working on with him. She called me last night (this is the one I pay out of my pocket) and told me that they (2 teachers and his SP. Ed teacher) have never heard of LiPS or Lindamood bell, and their programs they are using right now with my son seems to be working fine. That is what my SLP got from the meeting. Nice eh? You would think that teachers who are teaching special needs children would looking into programs that have clinical studies, you would think they would get educated about their job and how different techniques can work.

One lesson that is good to learn is to look at the small picture and the small steps, and celebrate them. Don’t stop looking and working and advocating and informing the teachers about what they really should know already, and all the rest of the things we do — but recognize that success is success, and hard earned successes are worth celebrating — it ain’t a race :-)

Sue, well said and well put. But how do I tell the teachers what they should know about LD children or special needs children. I have given them information on PG, LiPS, OG, I have told them how much i have learned just by coming onto these sites and reading. Obviously they are not all that interested.

I don’t want to offened anyone or tell someone how to do their job. It is fustrating to say the least.

Hi,

I am an SLP and I talk to parents and teachers all the time. I don’t “charge” for my time when talking about the kids. I charge for assessment and therapy but not for consulting with teachers and parents. That is ludicrous.

I am trained in LMB programs, yes they work better intensively. But your son not only needs more LIPS but what is missing in your son’s program is the fluency piece. I think if you did something like Read Naturally at home on the computer you would see a bigger jump in his reading and auditory processing. I worked with an Audiologist who specialized in CAPD and we used Read Naturally to help with auditory processing therapy as well. The kids enjoyed it and their reading/processing and language improved too.

Patty,
So, my SLP who sees my son once a week and is trying LiPS has no experience with it. She had purchased some work books, etc and has used it once on another child.
When she told me it was “double” the payment last week, I was blown away. But I did not say anything. I guess it is just the way I am ….But it sure erked me that she was chargeing me $100.00 to go to the school with out discussing this with me first.

Now, let me ask you, what is Read Naturally, I will look it up on the internet, but is this really worth trying? Like I said before, my son is doing Earobics, and he loves it and seems to be flying through it.

Also, the reading clinic that I sent my son to for a month works like LMB. The director of the school is trained in LMB, Phono-graphix. Is this something that you think would help him with not only his reading fluency, but maybe articulation / speech?

I will try and explain this simply without medical jargon. I hope it makes some sense to you…

I have worked with kids who have Apraxia. Some kids are misdiagnosed as having apraxia of speech when what is really the culprit is their deficits in phonological processing which could be due to severe ear infections, or a hearing loss. This can impact their auditory memory for sounds and speech which has a profound deficit on their ability speak clearly, to read, write. Because of deficits in auditory memory they can’t make sense of the phonological system we use for language and speech and also in the understanding the sound symbol relationship we use for reading and writing.

Kids who are truly Apraxic have motor issues, they CAN”T talk because something neurological is impeding the motoric ability to plan and execute their articulators to form speech. If he had a TBI (traumatic brain injury) then perhaps he is truly apraxic…However….

Kids who are misdiagnosed as Apraxic using LIPS along with bombarding them with music, songs that rhyme to build their phonemic awareness and auditory memory they are able to work through their phonological processing to speak and read. It takes a long time but I have kids who are starting to mark syllables and can say hi who were non verbal in September in using this musical approach.

I would take him back to Steve at the Reading Centre. I have read many of his studies and he knows his stuff. I am sure he knows about Read Naturally. It can be done at home but you would need to know what your son’s current reading level is in order to put him in the fluency level that is appropriate for him.

LiPS is easy for SLP’s to pick up from our training in phonology and phonological processes. But what is different about me is that I got my training in LiPS 6 years ago before I became an SLP. I decided to go to a LiPS, Seeing Stars and Visualizing Verbalizing training to help my daughter who had dyslexia/ADD/Hearing Impairment/phonological processes. After talking with Phyllis Lindamood I decided to become an SLP. The rest is history.

Let me know if I can help you anymore…My advice is free… :)

Thank you so much for your information. God, it is so nice to speak to someone who knows this stuff! My son had been diagnosed (when he was 3) with DVD (Developmental Verbal Dypraxia). He did not talk till he was 4. He has been in speech therapy since he was 2.5 yrs old. I had no idea that information you pointed out about apraxia. So, what is the difference between DVD and apraxia. My son can talk but has a very hard time getting out what he wants to say. He will get to fustrated when he tries to tell me something. It is like his brain knows what he wants to say but it is not coming out of his mouth. He says to me “mom, why can’t I say what I want to say”. he gets so upset. Then if I dn’t understand something he is trying to say I begin to guess…..well, that sometimes does not work and he gets more fustrated.

I feel as though out of all the research I have done, The Reading Foundation has been the one that seems to have everything that my son may need. I wish I could keep him going with both, but I do have to choose one or the other. This can just get too expensive. I think if this SLP would have not charged me the exta $100.00 I would not be feeling so ripped off, and I would not be here complaining and trying to figure out if I want to keep the speech therapy going. U know!

Apraxia of Speech. It is a motor planning disorder. Since your son can now talk perhaps he has developed to the next level where his word retrieval problems may be more phonological in nature. That is where the building his auditory memory and teaching him skills to retrieve words will help him.

Get books on tape, where he can read the words along with listening to the tape, Also music with words to read so he can decipher what he hears into meaningful words and then he can eventually sing along with the music. You can participate by having him watch you as you sing along to help him with formulating words.

Also kids that are severely impaired with planning of speech I use Melodic Intonation Therapy and move their hands along with having them watch my mouth as we form words. It sounds like he is beyond melodic intonation therapy, so I would suggest going back to the Reading Centre and have them do LiPS. You could ask Steve if he has a clinician with Speech background or an SLP on his staff that can work with your child.

Apraxia of Speech. It is a motor planning disorder. Since your son can now talk perhaps he has developed to the next level where his word retrieval problems may be more phonological in nature. That is where the building his auditory memory and teaching him skills to retrieve words will help him.

Get books on tape, where he can read the words along with listening to the tape, Also music with words to read so he can decipher what he hears into meaningful words and then he can eventually sing along with the music. You can participate by having him watch you as you sing along to help him with formulating words.

Also kids that are severely impaired with Apraxia or motor planning of speech I use Melodic Intonation Therapy and move their hands along with having them watch my mouth as we form words. It sounds like he is beyond melodic intonation therapy, so I would suggest going back to the Reading Centre and have them do LiPS. You could ask Steve if he has a clinician with Speech background or an SLP on his staff that can work with your child.

Thanks for your clarification on the Apraxia.

I did try the bookes on tapes, and I think with my son’s ADD he just did not find that interesting. What he seems to use a lot is his Leap Pad. It has a ton of books you can buy and games on it to play. He finds that more interesting than the books on tape.

I have emailed Steve Trush to sign him up for more classes after the X-mas holidays. Thanks so much for you input and help

Terese

I was typing a post and my computer did one of its leaps and either lost or posted by itself. To continue …

A lot of the more extreme of the reading teaching theorists believe religiously that spoken language must always come ahead of reading and that the only way to teach a word is from speech. Of course this contradicts all of our experience in high school and college with the extensive vocabulary and complex grammar of English, but when did reality ever get in the way?
If you can get the reading skills down, you can teach language skills via reading and this can be a good thing.

Meanwhile, I think he needs everything that can be done to develop those language skills in every way possible.
Your SLP’s fees do seem rather high — I get frequent nasty criticism for charging $30 per hour (have started to be nasty back and tell people fine, hire who you want and expect to get what you pay for.) Especially since last time I looked Calgary was less costly than Montreal.
Charging for going to the school — well, as someone who is paid for hours of consulting I can see why she wants to be paid for her hours, it is all time and energy and you need to make a living, although at $100 she could more easily stretch a point. However this should have been discussed up front, not sprung on you.
You could look into finding a nice young student of audiology or speech therapy, providing the training, and paying a more reasonable hourly fee; that way you would get many more hours for the same cost, even if you pay for the training. And more time is probably what he needs. I would think three to five hours a week, not one.

Well, I live in NC and the going rate for private SLP’s in the city near here is $130. and hour, so I don’t think $100 is out of line at all. I think most private practice SLP’s, just like attorneys or anyone else, would charge an hourly rate for attending a school meeting. The unusual thing here is that YOU did not request the private SLP to meet with the school! So you could have told her that you’d prefer to give her recommendations to the school in a written report to avoid having to pay her hourly fee.

However, to repeat what has already been said, you never do LiPS once a week, The Reading Foundation is the best place for reading therapy and at a much better cost, forget the school as they will not help him, and an SLP should be working on language with him, not reading.

Do you have any language test scores? I’d be interested to hear his receptive language scores. I attended a very detailed language workshop today, and it was reiterated that kids with unaddressed language issues will continue to have trouble in reading and content subject matter until the language issues are addressed. Depending on the language scores, I’d be likely to do some intervention before going back to the Reading Foundation.

Janis

Sorry I just skimmed the posts and maybe you have explained this already, but I see you mention he has ADD. What is being done to address the ADD?

Janis

I did a S & L assessment on a middle school kid I strongly suspected was ADD-Inattentive (after my gut feeling of working with him)..When I went through the entire speech cumm to write my report I found an old report from over 5 years ago when this kid was initially diagnosed by several different prominent Dr’s a pediatric neurologist and a neuropscyhe as ADD-Inattentive. NOTHING WAS DONE in regards to meds and the Dr. at that time stated if the child didn’t respond to the language tx that the decision to medicate needed to be revisited… They got language and yet the kid is still scraping the bottom of the barrel. Not to mention the IQ hasn’t changed in 5 years, but now processing speed is in the MR range.

I just cried when I came across these old reports…because it reminded me so much of where my daughter was 5 years ago…This kid is in middle school and my kid is in high school they are 1 year apart in age but light years apart in language skills and cognition. But we chose to do meds, tx chose not to retain or put in SDC and got results. They chose to do nothing except retention and SDC placement.

I am trying to help this kid now but the damage is done, he will never make up for the lost time. The irony is he is testing out MR even though my argument is if the ADD is treated then just maybe we can make up for some of the lost time but again…I am not a miracle worker.

This is another case that shows if you can’t get the kid to focus it closes many doors in the long run.

He was diagnosed in grade one. We did the medication in grade one, but by grade two his teachers noticed no difference with him when he was on it or off it. In Grade three the same thing is happening. At the Reading Foundation, they also said the same thing. Sure, they have to give him a “simple” reminder to get back on task. So, why do I keep him on medication if no one notices a difference on or off?

Medication is something I don’t want to do if I don’t have too. I am waiting for our Dr. appointment with the Pediatrician, so that way we can talk more about testing him again.
I had one Dr. come to the school in grade one and view him for 1/2 a day, and she told me he had ADD and he should be on medication. So, that is where I am at with his ADD. I truly believe that there are kids that NEED the medication, but what happens when there is not much of a difference on or off the meds.

They are looking at behaviors…It is what YOU DON’T SEE going on in their heads that is the biggest hurdle to overcome and usually the ADD-Inattentive kids are the ones that get overlooked. when my daughter initially started meds the people working with her at the learning center didn’t see much of a difference. At that point I was spending $1400 for 16 hours of therapy a week. They were looking for ADHD hyper behaviors…What she was doing was tuning out and tuning into what was going on in her head that they didn’t pick up.

It was really noticeable later on when she was catching up and catching on, her retention improved. IT was like it took a while for her to learn how to learn and how to focus becuase for years my daughter had been tuned out and just giving up.

This morning I met with the team for this other kid. And sure enough…the mom is ready to do something now..this kid is 14 + and now she is just kicking herself for not doing something sooner especially after she heard what I shared with her about my own denial and where my daughter is now that I got my head out of the sand 5 years ago. The mom shared that she had been initially against meds for years but now she sees there is no recourse and then she started sobbing because she could sense we really knew what we were talking about and finally she found an IEP team who was working to help her kid and not just say he was brain damaged. Needless to say I cried along with her because I know I can’t fix the damage that has been done, I can’t make up for 10 years of being tuned out but I am going to try and do something to get this kid’s speech and language needs met by moving in the right direction.