Do I just give up on teaching my son to read? --WJIII test s

How old is your child, what grade and what specific tests of reading have been given?? Is this the first time he has been tested? My son had the WJIII and while it told a lot, it didn’t assess his reading ability in the real world; he was given the Gray Oral Reading Test that looked at accuracy, fluency and comprehension(of passages of differing reading levels). It took my son a long time to learn visually what the letters looked like and what they represent; his reading rate is still slow, despite lots of private intervention.

I am sure there are plenty of educators and parents here who can interpret these scores. Most of them seem in the average range, there are a few that are below that and can be addressed!

I just wanted to tell you that as discouraging as it may seem your son will be fine! The best thing you can do for him is to become educated about his needs and get him the services to help him achieve his goals. There are so many programs around for kids who have trouble learning to read, Orton-Gillingham, Phonographix, Wilson, Lindamood Bell, etc! Don’t ever lose hope, your son will read, everything happens for a reason and everything eventually does happen!

K.

Of course you don’t give up!!
Email me with more details (this board has so many posts it’s a full-time job to keep up) and I’ll tell you what are some straightforward, simple, and not very expensive things you can do right away to start teaching him. No miracles, but there *are* methods that succeed, given those dirty little four-letter words, time and hard work.
Details needed: age, present official grade level, present reading level, other diagnoses and problems.

Laura, hang in there. My son also had high phonemic awareness on the WJIII, and yet other tests indicated low phonological processing. My take on the whole thing: tests are just tests and don’t tell the whole picture. Don’t assume that the tried and true methods out there (OG, LMB) will fail him. You may need a one on one tutor who can really integrate the different pieces for him but he will read!!!

( BTW we are looking into private special ed. b/c I think an immersion program where you get language arts 4 times a day is the way to make it stick!)

Laura, There are very few reading programs are based on phonemic awareness. If this were the case, there wouldn’t be the high percentage that aren’t reading on grade level. What programs have your son had. Again, how old is he? You have to remember, that decoding is only one part of reading and the longer that he is not reading on grade level, the more programs you may need to get him on grade level. Also, a lot of kids need lots of practice to become good readers. Again, what programs has he had and when? This is very important. Not all reading programs are created equal.

Ah, fer crying out loud! I would have cheerfully given my left arm for those scores when my kid was six, and I have at great cost and effort now merely achieved NORMALCY at age 12!! YOUR kid is already smart, with excellent auditory processing and phonemic awareness. He has lags in Cognitive Fluency 71, Visual Matching 89, Retrieval Fluency 80, Rapid Picture Naming 65, and Pair Cancellation 86. Notice how all of the above rely on visual skills?? Get thee to a developmental optometrist, lady, and fix the “vision thing”.

NT

One of my children now reads on a 2nd grade level. (He is in 4th grade.) As noted in another post he doesn’t seem to distinguish the vowels sounds in words. He leaves out the vowels of words when he writes. (when is whn, what is wht, fish is fsh, etc.) I have had testing in the past but do not think the testing actually showed his level because there were many tests conducted a certain way which he absolutely bombed on, but when the test was presented in a different way, he did better on it. Credit was given to the proper way to give the test. I have slowly been getting him private help as I learned more and more about what he needed. He has had speech for 7 years now; he had OT for 3 years, had OG for 2 years - benefit was minimal in OG, did FF1 and FF2, is now doing vision therapy (has amblyopia, far sighted, convergence defficiency) I have seen progress with the VT because he had a big jump and actually began reading more and more without complaining. (Before he would read only half of a page in the beginning readers and complain that eyes were tired - this was with glasses but before VT) He is in self contained at school and the teacher has commented that he reads much better than he tested out. Her main concern is his seat work. She will teach a certain concerpt and during this time he will join in class participation and seems to understand the concept being taught then pass out a worksheet and it will be a total disaster. She will seat him next to her and have him redo it, without any further explanation or intervention, and he will get an A!! He also does this at home. He will not do his assigned work - whether homework or chore - unless someone is with him. I always have to go over the directions with him and do the first 1 or 2 problems as an example and then sit next to him to get him to do the work.
Any suggestions?

I am not familiar with those subtests myself, but the pattern that Shirin noted………those subtests all rely in visual input. So, it appears to be a reasonable hypothesis that this channel is not working efficiently. I’m in agreement with Shirin, this looks like a child who may benefit from an evaluation with a developmental optometrist.

nt

Both require a solid base for categorization of images. It is really really difficult to remember (retrieve from memory) the names of things for which you have no solid image. That’s why when you are trying to remember the name of some NOUN which is on the tip of your tongue, you say, “Wait, wait, I know it, it’s red, goes on wheels, has a siren, I know, it’s a fire engine!” Now think about building a solid image when you can’t focus easily. (This is why kids with visual processing issues are such crummy spellers.) Even lesser problems can be quite crippling. For example, I am really terrible about associating names with faces. There are people I’ve worked with daily for years whom I walk right by in other settings because I can’t recognize who they are. Tammy, my nurse, wearing scrubs and in the hospital is completely unrecognizeable when she is wearing jeans and at the library. I understand most people recognize each other by the pattern of the skin creases on their faces. What I go on is basically the outline of the hair and face, body build, general coloration, typical clothes, and above all the voice. I am quite good at recognizing voices.

He sounds like he got multiple hits in auditory, visual, and vestibular functioning. If he can do the work with somebody sitting next to him, than I would probably think about ADD. If you haven’t tried stimulant medications yet, than I sure would think about doing that. I also would think about Interactive Metronome www.interactivemetronome.com and check him out for sleep disorders, which can cause the same sort of pattern. If he has big tonsils and adenoids and a receeding chin and sleeps with his mouth open in the rescue position, (typical picture in kids with allergies) than I would get him a T&A and drag him to the orthodontist for an evaluation. I’d also think about vigorous physical activity in something which requires patterned motion, e.g. gymnastics and/or karate.

Hi!
My son is 8 and his reading fluency is extremely slow with lots of pauses. Also, there’s a large amount of inaccuracy. He has difficulty with the simplest words and lots of reversals. He also has some difficulty with reversing numbers although he has an easier time with math (as long as it’s not a word problem!).

Because fluency is so low, comprehension is not very high. Although I’m sometimes surpised at what he can understand. Although he often has difficulty expressing this.

I’ll bring up the Gray Oral Reading test at his IEP meeting (finally we have one scheduled!).

Thanks for your postive encouragement! :-)

Hi Karen,
Our boys really do have a lot in common. Good luck with choosing a school! It’s very difficult knowing what’s the best course. My frustration with my son is that I’ve spent enormous amounts of time on reading and it almost seems like I’m just “beating a dead horse” (figuratively speaking of course!). Instead of spending hours and hours on reading (and building his phonological and blending skills ablilites sky high — without affecting his reading!!!), I feel like I should be concentrating on strenghts more instead of weaknesses. If he’s good in math (and I think he may be, or at least he has an easier time with it). I need to work on building his math abilities.

I’ve basically ignored everything else in the quest to get him reading and this frantic “zeroing in” on a weakness, doesn’t seem so healthy. He needs to have something he’s good at.

Not give up entirely on reading, but start thinking a little more about strenghts.

I wish my son knew he was smart and felt smart. But he’s at the very “bottom” of the class, appears much slower than the other kids and tells me he’s “stupid.” The auditory processing score was a big surprise. I really thought my son had some mild CAPD. He seems to miss alot of auditory information.

I’ve questioned vision, but have been unsure about this. Last year on the Test of Visual Perceptual Skills (TVPS-R) his visual perceptual quotient was 121 (92%ile). I then thought perhaps there was a visual processing problem. But then I wondered, how does a person develop good visual perceptual skills if they have poor visual processing? Are the two related or are they seperate? I even contacted some university researchers about this and never did get a clear answer.

Other than this, or in addition to, I’m thinking this is sensory motor (SID…although it seems unsual that SID could have such a tremendous impact on reading and memory).

I feel like I’m closer and yet, I’m still not quite there.

And yet, maybe you’re right. Maybe it really is visual. Thank you for pointing out this connection.

SID is integration. My son’s primary problem is integration and it has had a tremendous impact on his ability to learn. He has difficulties in integration at a cognitive level as well but that has improved as his more sensory based integration problems have been resolved—piece by piece. So I think, in some kids, SID can have tremendous impact on their ability to learn.

The other thing I thought of is that your son could be fine at at least certain aspects of visual processing, yet be weak integrating that with auditory. Visual-auditory integration is a real issue, although much improved for my son. A kid like this can be normal at individual tests but still have issues with integrating. It is possible for your son to have CAPD and have some normal auditory processing. My son’s auditory processing, after much intervention, tests normal except in integration.

Beth

I can totally relate. I tried vision therapy, Phonographix, Sylvan, Wilson, Fast Forward and my son still wasn’t reading. He knew all his letters and sounds and could blend, but got stuck on double vowels. He couldn’t read past a first grade level.

I homeschooled my son last year. I saw that he could not concentrate very long on reading or any task involving intense concentration. I put him on Concerta (has no side effects) and his concentration was better. He could now pay attention and focus better on the sheet work.

My last resort was the Lindamood Bell clinic. They told my why my son couldn’t read — weak symbol imagery. (No one else identified this). I took a chance and they did it. He can now decode at a 6th grade level. They worked. He can now learn words and hold them in his head. They truly are remarkable.

I really think the people at the Lindamood Bell clinic understand LD and how these kids learn to read. I’d highly recommend the testing.

My thoughts exactly… I have checked into Interactive Metronome and have also thought about possible sleep disorders. He has been a snorer for several years but when I brought it to the attention of our pediatrician, she really didn’t have too much to say about it. Then he stopped for awhile… but now it has returned in a big way. On the nights that he snores the loudest, he is also restless and he is very grumpy the next day as if sleep deprived. He can come home, take a nap and his is a different person! His dentist/orthodontist just told me he would be in braces soon. He still needs to lose quite a few baby teeth. And yes he has a receeding chin. What is a T & A? I am also checking out 2 locations near us for karate. Thank you for all of you input; it’s so nice to have thoughts confirmed.

After reading Shirin’s post I wondered if LMB Visualizing and Verbalizing would help with a RAN and fluency problems. Did your child have word retrieval problems?

Helen

How interesting… That may be my son’s difficulty too. I know he even now will on rare occassion forget what a certain letter or number “looks like.”

Thanks for pointing this out.

I too wonder if V/V might help with this.

I have remediated many older kids and dipthongs and digraphs were their problem as well. I found that it wasn’t so much as a problem with symbol imagery but with not understanding the concept that more than one letter represents a sound. My own daughter, at 19, was amazed that though, was just /th/ oe/. She thought it was /th/ oe/ u/ g/h/. As soon as I told her that more than one letter represents a sound, she had no problem with learning how to read using PG. I have been told that I present PG differently than most and how I do it, I emphasize visual memory and symbol imagery. It can be done and is faster than LMB and a lot cheaper. If anyone wants to know how to do it, email me personally. I will be answering email this week, was away for the weekend.

My son scored in the 98% for gross motor skills but I know he has dyspraxia.

If you saw him swim you would see it too. He definitely has visual motor deficits that are related to sensory integration. He can do certain things very well, he can do the monkey bars, balance beam etc. He is exceptionally strong. He falls apart only in certain areas. I think some of these kids have strengths that can hide their deficit during testing. My son’s physical strength definitely played a factor during the motor test but it can’t help him coordinate his arm muscles to swim in a synchronized way.

I wonder if your son has some sort of severe tracking issues. If you hold his head and ask him to read, can he do it without turning his neck.
My son can do this but would prefer not too. I have been having him do this to improve his tracking.

Hi Linda,
I’ll give that a try. It’s funny, I’ve questioned my son about his vision. And I’ve done it in “sneaky” ways because I know he had at one point been afraid he might have to wear glasses (I don’t know why this would worry him, he doesn’t have a clue about fashion or vanity— maybe just the idea of having something on his face. Something that might “bother” him).

Anyhow, he really doesn’t show any signs of visual problems. But I’ll try holding his head. Perhaps vision therapy might be helpful. I did take him to an evaluation and they did note some problems. For example, the visagraph showed he was all over the place. But it’s hard to know if he was rereading because he was lost, or if he was rereading for comprehension.

At this point, it might not hurt to give vision therapy a try.

Don’t ever give up, and believe me I know it seems much easier.
I think what made me decide not to give up was when he was 8 and the school physcologist said, you’re son will probably be a non-reader. GRRRRRRRRRR, that made me decide he would not be a non reader. It took alot of time, but I think he is finally getting it, with the help of the Wilson Reading Program.
K is right, you have to learn what your son’s rights are and you’ll have to fight, but remember, if you don’t know one will.

And how is he doing. There are several of us with 8-9 year old boys and your experience would give us inspiration!

Whew, should have read my post before I hit the post button, I made a big mistake, should have said no one will.
Anyway, my son is 14 now and in the 8th grade. He still only reads on about a 4th grade level, but two years ago (before the Wilson Reading Program) he was reading on a 1st grade level.
Believe me the road wasn’t easy, it got worse before it got better. I also think along with the Wilson Reading Program another thing that really helped him was the tutor I hired just this past summer. She said his self esteem was the lowest she had ever seen (thanks to so many “caring” teachers), She told me when she started she didn’t know if he would learn anything new, but she would make him feel better about himself. She did, she gave him work that was a little to easy,but it gave him confidence, she praised him constantly(something he wasn’t used to from a teacher) she told him daily how he was a much better reader than he thought, she taught him to take a big task and break it down. So that when he saw a big assignment, he didn’t just feel overwhelmed. She worked wonders, as a matter of fact, the teachers commented on how different he seems this year. He has the same teachers as last year. He was so used to failing, he had given up. So hang in there and try to find someone who will work with him. I still find it amazing that teachers know so little about learning disabilities. If I had a dollar for everytime a teacher said, he’s just lazy, if he would try harder, I’d be rich.

Laura,

There is a difference between tracking issues and visual processing. Maybe that is the area of discrepancy.
I think my son’s own tracking issues (diagnosed by dev optomotrist) really affect his ability to read for extended periods. I have vision therapy floating overhead as a possibility of something to try if this does not improve over time.

All these balls in the air. I can only focus on one at a time.

Linda

Yes, it IS hard to focus with all those balls floating in t he air…and, yet, maybe it really is just a matter of time and huge amounts of reading.

Tracking is definitely somehting to consider. I’ve noticed my son will start off reading okay and then get worse the longer he reads.

Today I had a conference with his teacher (we’re at a new school) and it was soooo bizarre! This teacher thinks my son is doing wonderfully and that his reading is typical for a third grader!!! I don’t understand this. She told me if he’s still having reversals and problems by the end of third grade that’s when I should be concerned. The only thing she was worried about is his work is “sloppy.” I came out feeling like the teacher and vice princial think I’m crazy!!! I even spoke with my son’s teacher last year (from his previous school) and she was very surpised about this as well.

At the very least, I definitely need to help my son with his word finding difficulties and that’s not entirely impossible. I found a site on word-finding difficulties and there’s a couple of books that offer information and exercises. I’m going to order one.

I can’t tell you if you are crazy, or if the school is. But let me share with you my experience today touring a local (and high regarded) special school for kids with language disabilities. There were about 5 families there today looking at the school for next year , and we all had kids currently in 3rd or 4th grade. And the director said that the problem with most current schools is that they tell parents that there is nothing wrong, especially if the child is bright, because they get by on memorization and intelligence. Until eventually you have a child in 3rd or 4th grade, and they can’t read at grade level, or write well, or read for pleasure. So they get hundreds of applications for kids like ours because finally as the children approach middle school, and the reading becomes less about decoding and more about comprehension and higher order thinking the kids hate school, can’t learn etc etc. So my point is - don’t ignore your gut.

Laura,

If your son gets worse as he reads, that suggests that he is putting forth a huge amount of effort to read and that he can’t sustain it. My son is like that—I have been told that the core of his problems is integrating the various pieces—especially the visual-auditory. He tests as having a auditory integration problem as well. We are working on endurance but it is clearly an issue for him.

Beth

Karen,

What did you think about the school for your son?

Beth

Thanks for asking… sometimes my friends with NT kids (neurotypical…) just don’t get how big a deal this is.

Well, its the first special school we’ve looked at so we have no basis for comparison. Also we are comparing it to his present school which is a selective private school with a progressive philosophy. SO its a bustling, multimedia, diverse kinda place. Compared to our present school the special one is like a monastary. Quiet, small classes, a little antiseptic. But its clear they know what they are doing. The kids do language arts 3 times a day (orton based remediation) and the quality of the work we saw was truly amazing. Obviously there is less time in the day to do other things if you are doing that much language arts. So despite the fact that it doesn’t have the same visual appeal I think we would be blessed if they admitted him. Its very difficult to get into, but he made it thru the first cut. On the one hand I am praying he gets in , and on the other I am praying we don’t have to send him.

I just had an absolutely awful meeting at school. They say he can’t do work in school that I know he can do at home. He is so much more focused at home but it seems he is not holding it together at school.
I know he is afraid of this teacher. She really is the wrong teacher for him. I am wondering how much anxiety is playing a role here. She yelled at him for standing up when he wasn’t supposed too and for not getting his book out on time. My son has never had anxiety before. He is usually pretty tough. The football coaches knock him over when he stands wrong and it doesn’t intimidate him, he thinks it is funny.

I want him away from her but I don’t know if I achieved that goal today. I thought the regular ed teacher was great but he can’t work with her because according to the tests they showed me he isn’t doing reg ed level work. This doesn’t make any sense because at home he can do it.
One test showed where he couldn’t do a simple addition problem yet on the next line he did an addition problem adding numbers in the hundreds. I said how did he get the easy one wrong and the hard one right. They didn’t have an answer for me. They still insist he needs to be in the lower math group with the mean teacher. At home he knows most of his multiplication facts.
In reading they are sending home books that are too easy. The book he reads independantly in class is on the fifth grade level. The reg ed teacher readily admitted that he was comprehending the fifth grade level book because she asked him questions about it but still he stays in the lower reading group.

They say he has trouble focusing; I think he can’t focus because he is worried about getting yelled at. When I said this in a very diplomatic way I got totally brushed aside. The reg ed teacher was somewhat sympathetic, she said that they need to provide an environment where he feels safe. They haven’t yet explained how they are going to do that.
They said they don’t differentiate sped and reg kids that it all depends on where you test. So the ultimate catch 22 he tests low because he is intimidated, since he tests low he has to stay with the teacher who intimidates him.

Those tests did not reflect his actual skill level. I think I will ask the psych to retest him with the same tests in an environment, like her office, where he does not feel intimidated.

I can’t believe this. He has come so far. I feel like they just put him in an environment that is taking that all away.

What is T & A?

..

Karen,

Oh, do I understand—the praying you won’t have to send them!!! I didn’t meet the deadlines here for the McKay scholarship—which defrays private school cost for kids with IEP’s. I just wasn’t quite ready to face that tune, if you know what I mean. So, you are being much more proactive than I was when my son was in third grade (he is in fourth now). Also, there is nothing standing out as the kind of place I would want either.

My son is doing well this year—but I am sure a Florida public school is not as difficult as what your son is contending with.

How do they select the kids?

Beth

Linda,

It sounds like your son is horribly inconsistent—which is a hall mark of LD. I also wondered about ADD. That could be one explanation for why he does better at home—quieter, more one on one attention. Just fishing—not diagnosing.

Teacher does sound like the wrong match for any kid!!!

What grade is he in?

Beth

The first step was submission of a 12 page application (with short answer questions like ” how does your child view his/her learning difficulties”) along with a neuropsych . evaluation and it had to include projective (emotional) testing. This school is very clear about not wanting kids with emotional problems. They also wanted school reports. Based on that file they decide whether they’ll see the child. So now he goes in for 2 mornings of testing, and participating in one of their classes. Then they meet with us and tell us what they think. The answer could be 1) your kid doesn’ t need special ed. 2) your kid needs special ed but not here or 3 ) your kid belongs here. And even then there is no guarantee there will be space. There are other schools that are easier to get into, but we haven’t seen any yet. We will just in case, but I’m starting to think more about getting his present school to allow us to remediate him there. We’d have to provide our own tutor but at least he could stay where he is. I’m also going to send him to Lindamood for 4 weeks in december and see how that goes. The reality of pulling him out and putting him in a school that is totally special is starting to freak me out.

Karen,

I know it is scary but think of Socks. She has her two boys in a special education school—they are gifted but LD. They have really propsered there. So, I think with the right match, it can be a marvelous opportunity. I think that the careful selection process would be reassuring—they won’t take him (or even admit him), if they don’t feel they can help him.

You also can wait a year. I wasn’t ready to make that decision last year. I basically decided that I would give him through elementary school because once they hit middle school, forget it. But then I panicked last summer when the LIPS tutor didn’t work out.

I don’t think it is unreasonable either though to try and get more tutoring at the school you are at, even if you have to provide the tutor. I, perhaps like you, consider a special education school as a last ditch effort. Of course, if I could send my son to the school Socks kids go to I might not feel the same!!!
I do think from your posts that there is something visual going on with your son. That actually has been the longer struggle for us, ironically since we entered this journey through auditory processing.

If you want to email me privately, feel free to.

Beth