Oh, and this is a different problem.

NO you are not overreacting. I’d be fuming too. It hurts. Like you, I pulled out my sons testing and looking them over too. One is missing the entire Woodcock Johnson Testing, which explains alot about his LD. At the end of an iep meeting, I was told they would copy & send. My son passed testing & no longer met the criteria to stay. I just plain forgot about it. I’ve always just tried to help them & make sure their on track. Because of this chat line & Ohio asking a question about trusting, she led me to Parents Info. Center(PIC). They have sent me documentation & followed up with a phone call. The PIC rep. told me not to beat myself up about not understanding all the testing or knowing all this lingo, after all we all can’t understand everything. “You can’t expect to be a human dictionary” she said, “you’re not alone, and we’ll help you understand.”
It was nice to hear another voice, especially to let me know I’m not overreacting. Maybe you could start with a place like that.
May I also say, I have read your emails over the last couple of months (and have really thought about your situation) & you are going through H E double hockey sticks. And so hasn’t your son. I feel bad this is happening to you. Its wrong. The have “labelled” you (the negative way) & your son. Kathytoo, I’m not a quitter, but is there any chance you can get him out of there?? These battles are taking alot of time your son does not have at his age. Do you have school choice?? Can you get them to pay for another school that can meet his needs?? I have a co-worker whose son (at 14) could not read. The school tried to blame him & his wife & tried to take their son away. In the end, the courts found that the school had failed. A 14 year old should be reading or in an enhanced program that is teaching them to read. Their son is now going to a private school in another state and the offending town is picking up the tab. (40,000. a year). They also did not want him boarded, so the school-bus does all the driving. (Miraculously his behavior problems have disappeared and he is learning to read).
The Right to an Adequate Education - they are not meeting your sons needs and maybe they just honestly don’t know how….maybe there is a better place…I’m not a quitter.. I’d look at this as survival. If you want to stay & continue to fight in your community for the other children, more power to you, but your sons in trouble and it sounds like its not getting better. This is just an opinion, I had to move, so I’ve been there. It was the best thing I ever did, and yes, I still have issues. But none that make my children not want to go to school. Please read this as just an opinion, & know that I’m writing sincerely and with respect as another parent.I don’t have all the answers, I don’t even understand all of it all the time. You’ve been through alot. Take a deep breath & Get out & enjoy the weekend with your family!! The school is taking up too much negative time.

One of my sons really has a hard time organizing, writing, and “notetaking” is a severe problem because if you don’t have all the notes then he (we) can’t even study for the tests. He does not do it on purpose, as he forgets party invitations, try-out schedules,picture day notices, Game schedules - things he loves and does not benefit from forgetting or losing.
In our Middle School the kids meet with there team sped. teacher 3 periods a week. The remainder of the time she/he go into and float through-out all the classes, in an aide type position and they get all the notes (and may even break them down) and pass copies to the kids. One year a sped. teacher even got all the missing assignments for the week & emailed, so there was no lost papers. She also gave heads-up to projects etc. Some I never even heard of before that. Why did my son get this treatment when he was in Middle School and not yours??

Hi I’m with Bren on this. Have you had your surgery yet? Hope everything Ok on that side at least. I moved in to my parents house in my hometown to be close to a tutour for my son. He’s still little so slightly easier if you call being middleaged and living with your parents easier) and i gather you farm. I do think we lock ourselves into situations because that’s often what we have to do. But if we do stop, step back , and say if there was anothr possibility what would it be-we find following tangent threads leads to unexpected solutions. I know farm families around here have sent kids to live with other family members and friends so kids could get soccor or classes in other interests. Could you even consider something like this?? A retired teacher in the area that might be interested in tutouring?? A homeschooling group with kids his age where another Mom might be willing to let your son join in exchange for somethig she needs???

Okay,
1. It is possible that the pages were innocently removed.We are NOT talking about rocket scientists,Kathy.This school has not exhibited an highten sense of expertise. We all know that.In other words these are really not smart people.
The thing you need to do is a little research.
2. You have the right under two different laws to access your son’s educational file. My first stop would be a visit to the school and tell them you must see his files. I say files,because there are more than one. One file will be at the school,it is generally termed the cumulative file. I have also known of the school having a seperate”behavior file” the other file would be at the school board or a main special ed office,whatever your district does,there are at least two files. You want to see ALL of his files. DO NOT TELL them what you are looking for. Once there,smile and say I need to see my son’s educational files. When they say no one can do it,or you will have to make an appointment,tell them you will wait. Bring a book,let me know you plan on camping out until someone has the time to allow you access to your son’s file.
Look at every piece of paper,then ask for a copy of the entire thing. Date every piece of paper. Of course check out the eval report,make sure all pages,if there are more than two are there,if not ask why.Then ask if their are any more files kept on your son. They will generally say the psych file is not allowed,tell them it is,but you are aware that you cannot copy the protocols.( answer sheets) But according to FERPA laws you have the right to view them. Next ask if they have behavior records seperately. You could ask for a written statement to this effect,but you could also write a letter afterward,whatever,you want documentation that they told you there were no other files.Then ask if the school district maintains files and where they are located. Do the very same thing there.

Okay if it is an innocent mistake you will soon find out,but if it isn’t,then you will have documentation .
Look at the file,put them in order according to school years,then really look at them. A pattern usually develops and you can gleem info.

This WILL be the only way to get him out of there. Prove he made no progress,prove things weren’t handled appropriately.
Or believe it or not,possibly the school made a mistake,if not,they really did make one:-)

Kathy,

I’m not even sure it’s a mistake. For example, different tests are listed on different sheets. Some of the forms may not be applicable to your child. We have forms that would only apply to EMD or Behavior, etc. We leave those forms out if they are not needed. It would be unlikely that they would have deliberately left something out anyway, knowing that parents have access to their children’s files. You need to ask to see his special ed. file. That would contain the paperwork you are referring to. The cum folder just has the old report cards, immunization records, attendance info, etc.

So anyway, the page numbers are not necessarily important. Can you tell me the names of the tests (the ones he was actually given) that are listed on the sheets you DO have and I can tell you if it is enough for placement?

Janis

Kathy,
It sounds like your district is useing the old forms, the new forms in ohio are not marked with single numerals. While useing the old forms is a problem, its not nessisarily a major problem. Im gonna have to dig through old box’s, the forms your talking about have not been used in ohio for years, but im a pack rat.
The old forms were done in such a way that the mfe would have gaps, for example page the old page mfe-3 might have been the page they used only if the child was suspected of haveing a “severe behavior handicap” if that were the case then you would not have it in a LD evaluation, MFE-9 might have been a “team judgement” page- if your child had a 2. discrepency then a team judgement page wouldnt be nessisary in your MFE.

I will look for my old model policy and proceedure manual, but you really should send your mfe into LDA, 216-749-0133, they will go over the mfe, if it is missing any pages that should be their for an LD evaluation they will let you know. If they see any violations of the law, weather by ommision or by addition, they will let you know.

useing the old form in itself is a bit of a problem, but so long as they put all the new required info on the old pages it might be ok. The only way your gonna know if that mfe has all the correct info is if you send it to someone (I dont even think you can get the old model policy and proceedures anymore).

I know LDA isnt the closest of the agencies to you, but even if you work with the Ohio coalition, I would still send it to LDA as well, LD is their area of specialty, because the specialize in just the one disability area, they may pick up more then the agencies that work with all areas. They can help you a lot over the phone.

OK, I’m breathing now LOL I’ve calmed down some. All this testing stuff is greek to me, but here’s what I found.

WIAT Subtests St.Score Confidence 90% Percen
Basic reading 68 61-75 2
Math Reasoning 87 79-95 19
Spelling 63 56-70 1
Reading Comp 60 52-68 0.4
Numerical Oper 69 60-78 2
Written Expression 68 56-80 2

Composites
Reading 59 53-65 0.3
Mathematics 74 68-80 4
Writing 58 50-66 0.3

Brigance Diagnostic Inventory (see Protocol)

General Intelligence

Results standard score 90% Cofidence Percen
avg=100 S.D. =15 Interval

Verbal 93 85-102 32

NonVerbal reasoning 71 65-80 3

Spatial 91 84-98 27

GCA 82 77-88 12

OK, this is all the test scores I have from the MFE, so it might make sense to all of you, but to me….I’m still lost.

Thanks

What you have are two measures of achievement; you need to ask for the individual intelligence test results, probably the WISC III, so you have something to contrast with the achievement results. Good luck.

Yes, bb is right, this is the achievement portion, but let me clarify…is this the initial placement or a re-eval? A WISC must be given with the initial placement but not necessarily each time you have a re-eval. As a matter of fact it is very dangerous to let the school give another WISC. The IQ could fall a few points, mess up the discrepancy, and kick the child out of the program.

Janis

Wait a minute, I just misread something Kathy. I thought I was reading Brigance results but it DOES say General Intelligence. That is not the WISC, it is some other kind of IQ measure. Technically, those two tests could have placed him.

Janis

hey kathy me again, I cant find my old policy and proceed manual, but I have tracked down some of your missing pages,

the old MFE page 8 was the page on communication status- in ohio all children who are tested for learning disabilities have to have an assessment of communticative status-
(you need to get this done on your child- if I recall correctly he has a split between his verbal and preformance IQ- ask the school, in writeing, for a full language evaluation including receptive, expressive, pragmatic and auditory processing tests)

the old mfe page 10 was a “social and emotional status or behavior/personality report- Its been a while but I think this was also a required page in an old ohio mfe for a child suspected of haveing an LD.

I havent been able to track down 9, 7 and 13

but my greastest concern is the pages with the roman numerials, I dont ever recall haveing any roman numerials as page headers in Ohio MFEs, some of the pages had numbers at the top and then had roman numerials, but to the best of my recolection they never had the pages themselves idetified by a roman numerial sequence- this makes me suspect that in addition to haveing pages missing, your mfe might actually have additions that are unusual.

My understanding- which could be wrong but I just did an ERIC search- is that the Brigance Developmental Inventory is for use with children who are under the age of 7or 8. If these are the results you are using for your son’s LD placement and he is now a 7th grader then he needs to be re-evaluated. I would never - no matter how risky I felt it might be- base something as important as my understanding of the way my child learns on test results that were five or six years old. Children that age are surging developmentally and the profile they present at that time may be significantly different than the the one presented at the age of 12 or 13. His overall capacity may not be too different- and likely is not- but you still need current information. The rule of thumb that I was taught about this stuff- as a Special Educator and as a diagnostician is that you need at least two points to draw a line… You don’t need to IQ test endlessly - but you do need results that you can sort of guarantee are stable. Results from a 7 year old or an 8 year old are probably not. BTW- the other posters are correct and the principal is out of line in your other thread.

Robin

We were also told by a psychologist in private practice to get two IQ tests(three years apart), making sure they were after age 7 years, because after that IQ is more stable and predictions can be made from valid (WISC III) IQ tests; the achievement tests are more varied although starting this year our school is using the new Woodcock-Johnson III.Don’t base educational changes especially new schools,or classes on results that are old.

The WJIII also has a cognitive test that is as acceptable as the WISC III- and is designed to be in line with what the current regulations ask for relative to documenting processing deficits. Almost all states will accept the WJIII score.

Robin

Ohio, guess I didn’t make myself clear, imagne that, with the state of mind I was in last night LOL
The pages are numbered at the top, and the roman numerals are within the body of the papers. Thanks for looking into it and I hope this helps clear some things up.

Also, this MFE was a reevalutaion, it’s two years old now, so would have been done when child was 11.

And on the other issue with the prinicpal, after calming down a little I’ve decided to call the special ed. director on Monday, because she was at the meeting and not the prinicpal. Plus, the
prinicpal is one of those ppl who tell you want you want to hear, but never acts on it. I am also going to write a letter and send it to the principal and the superident, stating that I don’t want issues concerning my son’s IEP discussed solely with him. I want a formal meeting called and then the IEP team can decide as a group what would best benefit my son’s education, regardless of how much extra time it requires on the part of the staff. And, when I call the special ed director, I’m going to start the conversation by saying I believe my son’s IEP has been violated, or something to that effect, what would be the best way to say this? I’m also going to let her know that I’m very upset with the manner this situation was handled as well as the demeaning things she said to my son. She just set him back so much, I think we were finally making some progress with his self esteem and then she tells him, doesn’t matter what we do you fail anyway. GRRRRRR! I’m also going to tell her that someone must not be doing something right, if a child with an IEP is still failing, then we need to make some major changes to that IEP. I don’t have a clue what changes to make, but I’ll bluff them unitl I find the answer. I’m calling the LDA as Ohio suggested on MOnday and also some of the other names she gave me, maybe they can help.
Wouldn’t you think the school would realize by now that the more they mess with me, the worse I get? I guess they just keep thinking that they’ll give me a hard enough time that I’ll give up and go away. They sure don’t know me.
Does anyone have a magic cure for not getting upset and crying at these meetings? I do pretty good, until the whole room starts blaming my son for all his problems. Then I get mad, and then I start feeling so bad for him, it breaks my heart to watch him struggle and then they say…he doesn’t try. I”ve even considered asking my family doc for a mild nerve pill before I go, don’t know if it would help, but I hate for them know they upset me.

Thanks again, don’t know what I would do with out you guys.

Kathy,

Have you ever thought of just taking him out and homeschooling? Other than the LD teacher using Wilson, it sounds like it’s pretty negative for both of you. When people have to fight and fight for, at best, inadequate services, I wonder why they keep doing it. Maybe you are working and can’t homeschool…I don’t remember. (Thats me right now, too). I just read some happy homeschooling posts yesterday and thought how wonderful they no longer have that stress!

Anyway, when I said not to keep repeating IQ tests over and over, that did not mean to not give achievement tests. As a matter of fact, I will be having the WJ-III acheivement test given to my child each May, so we can accurately assess her progress. Yes, the school DOES have the responsibility of making the learning situation suit the child’s needs so that the child does not fail. Honestly though, there are many teachers like your son’s who consider special needs children a real inconvenience. Some also feel accommodations and modifications for one child are unfair to the other kids. Yes, that is dead wrong of them, but it exists probably in almost every school in America. At those achievement levels, your son is going to be struggling the rest of the way unless this LD teacher is really making big strides. I strongly suggest you hold them accountable for the academics by requesting a yearly WJ-III. If you can show they are making little progress, you might have grounds to ask for a private LD school.

Janis

Kathy,

One more thing. I don’t know what would help you stay calm, but you are very rigth that it is the best thing to do. I have been in plenty of those meetings. The most respected parents are the ones who have knowledge of their child’s disability and can speak calmly and firmly if necessary. The school usually will try harder to work with parents like that since they know the parent is knowledgeable and wants to be helpful and not an adversary. That is why it is in your best interest to keep this special ed. director on your side. Let the prinicipal and the teacher be the ones who look bad. As a matter of fact, since the special ed. director was the one who wrote the homework accommodations in the first place, I’d be SURE she was there when you have the next team meeting at the school.

Janis

Kathy,

Your son’s acheivement scores are extremely low I have a hard time seeing how he could do much work in a regular classroom. If he has been on an IEP since is it 2nd grade and is not progressing you should consider either asking for an IEE or getting one on your own.

Helen

I hate to sound stupid, but what is an IEE? You’re right it is almost impossible for him to do work in a regular classroom. At my last meeting with this “wonderful” teacher of his, I ask, “would you expect a 4th grader to come in here and do this work”, of course she said no, and I said, but you are. “Would you expect a 1st grader to do this work” adn that was another no, but she is. He’s reading on a 4th grade level and writing on a 1st grade level. His LD teacher just told me the other day, that he thought he was making progress in reading, but I needed to face it, he’s never going to learn to spell. But he still gives him a spelling test…..every week, that he fails. This is what bothers me, they are constantly telling me, he will never be able to do this and that, but they still keep pressuring him. His LD teacher has told me several times, he needs to find a trade he likes because he will never be able to go to college. So sounds like they’ve given up on him. My son used to say he wanted to go to college, to major in baseball and football, LOL. But even he’s given up on that goal now…..wonder why? NOw he wants to go to the army and be a sniper, but that might be a problem, since he’s 13 and still won’t spend the night away from home.

It stands for Independant Educational Evaluation. You request it and it is done at the school’s expense by an outside evaluator. If they don’t want to do it they have to demonstrate why- but it is usually cheaper to do the eval than to go to court not to so the eval. Somewhere in your paperwork you have a copy(s) of something called “Parental Rights”. You are supposed to get a copy of this at least once a year- Vermont gives them out at every meeting- and all this stuff is in there. I would have someone help you find out if the Brigance is a valid test for an 11 year old- I am not sure that it is based on what I found.
Robin

I’m not sure that this test wouldn’t have been considered an IEE.
When they did the reevalutaion 2 years ago, the school pyschologist at our school system did the testing, When my son came home from school that day, he said they gave me that test today, would have been nice if the woman spoke English. When I ask what he meant, he said she’s from some other country and I couldn’t understand her. I called the county office and inquired about this, they said yes she is from India, but she speaks English well. So I waited until I got the report. When the report came and I started reading it, I found another childs name mentioned in the report, not my son’s name, I ask my son if he had ever heard of this name and he said yeah, it’s a boy in my class. So once again, I called the county office, they had the pyschologist call me. Yes she did speak English, but with a strong foreign accent, I told her I didn’t mean to offend her but I was having to really concentrate to understand her, and I’m sure it would be ever harder for a child that was being tested with a learning disability. I then mentioned the other childs name in the report. She said that was just an error, that she puts all the reports in her word processer and she must have just put the wrong name in. I said I don’t like that explanation, how do I know this is my childs assesement and not someone else. So the school agreeded to have him re-tested by the regional office of SERC. That is where these results came from. I”m not sure if they will consider this as an outside IEE or not. Any ideas?

Kathy,

This is not an IEE. Plenty of school systems contract with outside psychologists to come in and complete evaluations if they have too many for the staff psychologist(s) to complete. If it was done at school, it most certainly not an outside evaluation. An outside evaluation will be done at a private agency or a university testing center. These people will be totally independent of the school system. I agree that you need one, regardless of who pays.

Robin,

You know, there are several different versions of the Brigance, so it is possible that they didn’t even put the right name down. But even if they did, all the Brigance Inventories are what I believe is called criterion referenced (shows what skills the child has and which ones he doesn’t) and not normed, so as long as the skills tested were around the level that the child is performing, then I don’t see what difference it makes. There is overlap of skills in some of the Brigance Inventories. I don’t have the catalog at home, so I can’t see content at the moment, though.

Janis

I would call up and ask when the last IQ test was done, and was it the WISC, Stanford-Binet or the new WJ III cognitive portion? If it was done two years ago at age 10 years, the WISC would have been the test most commonly done.

Janis

There are indeed several versions- but none of them look appropriate for an 11 year old and none of them- with the exception of the one for young children- provide anything that looks like an IQ score. That is why I did the ERIC search- because I wasn’t sure. A criterion referenced test is not a measure of cognitive capacity that is acceptable under the law as far as I know. Norm referenced- by age- are the only acceptable measures and you still need- at some point- those two dots to connect the line.

I think I disagree with your interpretation of an outside evaluator though. I am one of those folks who works independantly but has a contract with a couple of school districts to provide evaluations. None of the districts does much testing in house other than yearly goal assessment. I am however, an outside evaluator- as are all the other folks I know who are in my position. I write lengthy and detailed reports summarizing my findings and I am have no particular ties to the district relative to what their service model is or what their available programs are. I only recommend things that make sense given the profile of a particular child and I am not at all shy about delivering unpleasant news or celebrating good news. I am on the child’s side in this process you see- and so are all the other professionals I spend time with. I am in business as an independant consultant- not a school employee.

Kathy:

Request an evaluation in writing. This is too screwy for words and you cannot function without up to date accurate information- much less hold the district accountable for programming for your son.

Robin

Robin,

I didn’t think the Brigance had anything to do with the IQ score. Next to the Brigance, it said “see protocol”, if I recall correctly. I saw the next test (IQ) as being totally separate. I do not think the Brigance had anything to do with the IQ score. You are very right that it would be fairly impossible to get an IQ score from a criterion referenced test! And I used a form of the Brigance through last year with high schoolers. The version I had went up through maybe 6th or 8th grade skills. I used it every year to measure progress and to help me identify areas of concern for the IEP. I am back at elementary, and I still use it.

All I know is that my county, in order to save money, dismissed the full-time psychologists and now have all our testing done by outside contracted psychologists. But that psychological IS the district-provided testing for initial and 3rd year re-evals. It certainly would not be considered an independent evaluation. An independent eval would be provided by a nearby university or private agency that does psycho-educational testing and who does not do the day-to-day testing for the county.

Janis

Thanks for the comments, but now I”m really confused, about this test and that test. I’m just going to put all the testing ideas on hold for awhile. I’ve got to tackle one problem at a time. And tomorrow’s problem is the prinicpal. Maybe after I clear that up and contact the ppl Ohio told me about, they can help clear up the tesing issues. I appreicate your comments, but right now my held is to full of “what to do’s” Thanks!

I read it differently- to me it looked- and still does I guess- like the Brigance score was being quoted as an IQ score. I really don’t know a lot about the Brigance and what sort of numbers and clusters it generates so I am willing to admit I might be off base. It has happened before and I suspect it will happen again:)

The difference in our districts I think, is that we have never had on site evaluators- all our evals are done by outside professionals-though they frequently are done at the school as a convenience to the teachers and the parents. The professionals the school calls to do assessments are just as likely to be called by parents for IEE’s- and most evaluations are ultimately paid for by the district- even the university evals and neuropsychs. There just aren’t that many folks around who DO good educational evaluations and they are all very busy. The schools know that- and they have little interest in going to court over eval results. They use that money more efficiently providing services- or they try to anyway:)- so it makes sense to get it done correctly the first time.

Take care!

Robin