Question about a language disorder

Hi Kathryn,
I was re-reading our discussion from a couple of weeks ago. Where I mentioned; Sub-Vocalising or Minds Ear. Where you: “She does read to herself in her head and she does sound out words in her head when she is reading, so I know she has a voice in her head, but the planning ahead of time is the problem.”

Which at the time I concluded that she is able to sub-vocalise.
Yet I’ve still been researching this, and one issue that I’ve been looking into. Is the use of ‘Visual Cues’ and Sub-Vocalising. Where a Visual Image or the Written Word, is used to retrieve the sound of the word or image, in the mind. Though for some people, they can only sub-vocalise when a visual cue is used.
In the ‘multiple choice’ test that you mentioned above. Were they presented Visually or Verbally?
Geoff,

Both. When we ask her a multiple choice question verbally, even if the choices are yes or no, she used to always give pick whatever was said last, so my older daughter tried to manimpulate her into doing things by saying to her “no or yes” when she wanted a “yes” answer. This year I have noticed her not always giving the last choice as her choice, so if asked if she wants to drink “juice, water or milk” she might pick juice or water, where she would have always picked milk and then when given milk she’d say “No, I want juice”. When given 2 sentences and asked which is correct she gives the correct one. For example,

“the girl and her mom are going to the store” or
“the girl and her mom is going to the store” she will say “the girl and her mom are going to the store” as the answer.

When given fill in the blank she reads the sentence out loud and says the word “blank” for that blank spot. Then she looks up at the choices at the top of the page and doesn’t say anything out loud, so I am assuming that she is reading the words in her head or else she just knows what will work there and is looking to find it on the list and then finds it and points to it with her pencil and says it out loud at that point then she writes it in the blank and crosses it off the list. At this point, she never feels certain that she is right, but I think that is a confidence thing. She says “I think” when she says the word, but then continues to write it down.

Anyway, hope that answers your question. I’m hoping that someone out there knows someone with a language disorder and can give me some idea of how their situation turned out. I know everyone is different, but I guess I am just looking for hope for my child.

Thanks,
Kathryn

Hi Kathryn,
Were the ‘2 sentences’ given visually or verbally?
Though to confuse things, their is an important difference between sub-vocal Recall and Rehearsal.
Where your example with ‘choosing a drink’, she recalls the last one. Though perhaps the recent change, is that she has learnt how to make an instant choice. So after hearing the word: Juice, she ‘blocks out’ the rest?
Whereas with Sub-Vocal Rehearsal, we hold the words: milk, juice, water in our mind. Then talk over the choice in our mind? ‘What do I feel like,I had some milk before, so I might have juice?
Equally, with the ‘sentence with a blank’, she might Recall the word from the list. But not be able to Rehearse the word within the sentence?
It is the difference between Recall and Rehearsal that is a major focus on my research.
Geoff,

Thanks for your response. The drink example was just an example. I often can give her several choices that are unusual, like choices of places to go, etc… Or even what books to read and she can respond to something other than the last choice. The sentences are verbally.

As to fill in the blank, we do read the words ahead of time so when she reads the sentence she either puts in the word that makes the most sense or else she really remembers her choices from the list. She reads the sentence with the word “blank” and then goes up to the list and looks around for a while and does so silently, so I think she is trying out the different choices in her head.

I hope that answers your questions.

You and I can continue to discuss this on this thread, but I am going to post a new thread looking for parents of children with speech and or language issues. Please do not respond to me on the new thread. I think people might see that I already have a response and not respond. At least I can test out that theory. Maybe no other parents out there have children with speech or language problems and that is why I do not get responses.

Thanks,
Kathryn

Hi Kathryn,
That’s a good idea to start a different thread, and keep this one separate.
As I appreciate that this subject of Sub-Vocalising, is rather confusing?
I am currently working with a Mom of 16 year old, where it is much easier to talk about it with him, so that he understands it. Though it is a far more difficult thing for an 8 year old to understand.
Especially if they cant sub-vocalise.

Though I’ve been thinking that perhaps it might be easier for a child to understand, by using a comparison? Specifically ‘minds eye’ and Visualisation. Where young children are more familiar with idea of ‘picturing something in their mind’?
If you asked Michelle to ‘imagine what a dog looked like, and picture it in her mind?’
I would make a guess that she would understand what you meant, and be able to do it?
‘Can you picture a Black Dog? A White Dog? A White Dog with Black Spots?
If so, this could be used as a way of explaining sub-vocalising?
‘Just as you imagined a picture of a Black Dog, can you imagine the ‘sound of the words’; Black Dog? In your mind. White Dog, and so on?

Perhaps you could try introducing it this way, and see how she responds?
Geoff,

Can I just ask her if she can hear the dog barking in her head?

She does read to herself in her head, if that helps. She reads something silently and then answers the question. This is a new skill, however, so I’m not sure if I mentioned that before. Her teacher told me at the beginning of the school year that in second grade everyone pretty much reads to themselves out loud even in class and by the end of the school year it’s pretty quiet in the classroom because they are all reading in their heads. I think she encourages them to read with a whisper after a while and then to read with just moving your lips, but no sound and then eventually to reading silently.

Kathryn

Hi Kathryn,
That is an important factor that she can now; ‘read something silently and then answers the questions.’
As it suggests that she has already developed the basic skills to sub-vocalise.
Though this reminds of some kids that I have helped, who could sub-vocalise in response to a ‘visual cue’, such as a written word or a visual image.
Which is used to retrieve the sound of the word, from their memory.
Though they couldn’t sub-vocalise without a visual cue?

But often it turned out that the reason that they coudn’t do it? Was simply because no one ever told them that people actually did this? The 16 year old I mentioned above, was really amazed to find out that people ‘hear words in their mind, as they are thinking?’ Which he thought only happened to people with a ‘mental disorder’?
Yet, sub-vocalising is really a well kept secret?
Whilst the parallel to this: ‘sub-visualising’, is commonly spoken of, where everyone is familiar with the term: ‘picture this in mind’. Which most children will understand.
Also whilst we have the common term; Visualise, we dont even have a common term for sound? Audio-ise?
Just this obscure technical word; sub-vocalise.

So Kathryn, perhaps the solution might be to let Michelle know about this ‘well kept secret’?

As an exercise, borrowing from your ‘fill in the blank’ exercise. What I’m thinking of for example are:
––––— to the shop.
––––- the fence.
––––– for lunch.
etc.
Though options for the blanks aren’t given.
Where the aim is to practise what is called: sub-vocal rehearsal, and imagine different options.
Perhaps you could try some rehearsal yourself, with the above examples, where the blanks are multiple words.
Then maybe try them with Michelle, where she has to try and imagine as many different ways to fill in the blanks. Which I would suggest would cause to her practise sub-vocal rehearsal, as she thinks of different ways to fill in the blanks?

Though in regard to your other thread, and the ‘difference’ between APD and CAPD, it shows how up to date the school psychologist is?
Geoff,