Sons scores and schools "help"

I am not an expert. Just a parent, as they say.

I would wonder if you couldn’t get some OT for the handwriting/motor issues. Some find that addressing motor planning can impact attention.

Also, look into lindamood bell visualizing and verbalizing for reading comprehension. I

Thanks Linda,
He has a diagnosis of Developmental Coordination Disorder also and occupational therapy was recommended. The school did not accept that diagnosis and will not provide occupational therapy. Apparently he isn’t ” bad enough”. He will be receiving private Occupational therapy through a handwriting specialist/OT beginning the 8th at our expense. Is Lindamood Bell that much different from the Orton. I’m assuming from your post that it should help with comprehension. Frankly, I don’t see the problem with comprehension at all. He can always answer questions about what he has read, and about what was read to him, even making inferences based on his comprehension. I’ll look into LMB, thanks. Should I insist on a 504 for him? His teacher is modifying his work by giving extra time. I just want to make sure we have something in place in case we have to move, or to make sure accomidations are made with his teacher next year. Thanks again for your advice.

Well then the test is wrong. Not the first time.

Honestly my son too has excellent comprehension. We do the VV books anyway because he feels so good about himself when he reads the 8th grade level stories and answers all the questions correctly. The book with the stories is called visualizing and verbalizing stories. If your son can already visualize the story you don’t need the more expensive workbook.

I don’t know that much about orton. I am doing seeing stars for my son and it does help with his spelling and makes reading more automatic for him. He visualizes the big picture of the story well (comprehension.) He needs help visualizing the symbols. We started with phonographix which we also still do to work on the 3 syllable words.

I wish I had incorporated the seeing stars concept of visualizing right from the very beginning. Shay our resident PG expert does teach phonographix using some visualization which I think is a stroke of genius.

Another thing to consider for motor planning is interactive metronome. I thought it did wonders for my son in the area of attention and sequencing. Others have found it to help with handwriting but my son had most of that issue worked out through OT when we did IM.

I’m not convinced that OG is what he needs right now. I see potential issues with rapid naming and comprehension. The testing isn’t great for uncovering word recognition problems, but I’m still more suspicious of his reading comprehension based on the Gray oral & silent. Still, without a very good phonics and word recognition test, we cannot be sure.

Do you notice that he is very literal? Does he understand pragmatics (idioms, jokes) and make visualizations in his head when someone reads to him? Does he predict? Oral vocabulary is okay—how is he at using different forms of a word? How is description? That naming problem coudld have an affect on this area.

Now, I’m not saying that phonics isn’t also an issue. I’m not sure based on the testing information that I’m seeing. If you’ve done basic PG, then that may be shored up for the moment.

When you are listening to him read orally, what does he do when he comes to a word that he doesn’t know? Is he sounding it out or just guessing? How close or far is he from getting it?

Thanks for your insight. Just to answer some of your questions. He has always had an amazing ability to understand adult language and jokes. There is virtually nothing he doesn’t understand, even when expressed with adult vocabulary. His ability to understand and manipulate language is really very good. He really doesn’t have difficulty describing things or using words in different ways. He visualizes everything in his head, when we are reading to him, and when he reads to himself.
As far as oral reading, when he comes to a word he doesn’t know he sounds it out the majority of the time. Occasionally I will catch him guessing. When he does guess, he is off (not close at all )and just trying to guess based on what he thinks the meaning of the sentence is.
We did do basic Phonographix this summer, basically got to beginning and ending blends. The teacher was so impressed that he was so much more advanced than most of her students. (And they wanted to keep him in a 1/2 day Kindergarten program, ha kudos to Phonographix) Anyway I assured the teacher that the only reason he could do what he could was due to intensive Multi-sensory teaching during the summer and I felt that he would hit a roadblock. His rapid naming is the one thing that I feel is really out of whack. He really has to think things through. He gets the correct answer, but typically slower than his counterparts. He has an awesome teacher who is patient and has kept his self-esteem intact. (Something we had to rebuild this past summer). His teacher is also using lots of tricks for decoding like frosting words (magic e) and “chip and cheese” words (two vowels together) He applies these rules routinely without hesitation. I think that he does however get caught up in reading the actual words and may take away from comprehension. I hope the info. helps. I appreciate your input.

I am interested in Interactive Metronome. His coordination and motor planning are atrocious. I guess I’ll ask the OT about it. Thanks for the info. on LMB. I’ll look into it also.

I was just wondering. Is there something that is out there that may be better for my son than OG or Phonographix. Things really clicked with PG this past summer, we just stopped because school started and we had other “homework” to do. I taught 1st grade for 8 years, so I do have lots of experience teaching children how to read. I have been at home for the last 3 years and sometimes feel as though there may be something new that would be exciting for him to use. The OG teacher says that he is not ready for the MTA program and she has another program for letter recog. etc. but he is above that level, so he falls somewhere in the middle. Anything else out there? Or am I going to be subjected once again to those boring Phonographix stories….Thanks again.

Those who’ve been around the BB for awhile will get a big laugh out of that one. I’m one of the OG people—trained and certified in both OG and Lindamood-Bell. Have never used PG.

I didn’t suggest OG because it seemed like his basic phonics skills are in place. That makes me first suspicious of comprehension—or fluency.

I think what I’m hearing you say is that he gets so caught up in the act of decoding that he isn’t thinking about comprehension. What is the reading rate?

If comprehension is intact, then word recognition and fluency are the only other choices. Being partial to OG, that’s where I’d go next unless reading rate is very slow.

You’re about to be subject to an even longer O-G post :)

There is a neat “advanced phonics” program called Word Workshop (http://www.thewordworkshop.com) if he’s ready for multisyllable words. It sounds like he still has some fluency issues though.

There’s a book called “Never Too Late To REad” that outlines reading strategies with older students who already know *some stuff… but more on that in the long part.

There’s a group on yahoo called MSSLathome and it’s all moms teaching older kids to read with O-G type things, and it’s worth getting in the group for all the files and games and activities in that section of the “group.” There are some ferociously creative moms ther e;) If you’re nervous about spam (but frankly, I got a separate mailbox just for it and carefully checked off all the “no I don’t want that kind of spam either” places…. and I don’t get any at that mailbox!) it’s worth getting a yahoo mailbox. Go to www.yahoogroups.com (which isn’t really the right address but you’ll land there) and look for MSSLathome.

Here’s what I do with the “kids in between” —

Get a binder and a couple of cardstock dividers or tab dividers so you can make some sections.
Get some good fiction books that are a little harder than his independent reading — stuff at his interest level, not so hard it’s totally frustrating but not too easy (though that’s almost never a problem).
Get two pencils.
Get teh book _Never Too Late To Read_ by Anne Tuley (or for a much shorter version of this, Tandem Reading by YOurs Truly.) If you were in IL I’d say come by & borrow mine :)
It describes trading off reading and using the pencils to monitor fluency & accuracy (your pencil’s above and his is below the words so you’re following the line together — yes, also good for tracking issues). When there’s a mistake you don’t stop and talk, you just stop the pencil — usually that gets a second accurate reading. And you make a little teeny tiny mark there. (In my training we had the kids tracing lightly along under the words and breaking words into syllables and sentences into phrasing but that’s probably more than you’re wanting to deal with.) Sometimes I’ll point to the “problem” part of the word or split it up into syllables if the reader is stuck. (And often I’ll just say the word — the point is to enjoy the story and know what each word is — but make a little mark there.) Then I’ll look over the words at the end of the lesson & look for patterns in the problem words.
Then I’ll go bakc and make a list of a few words that are worth practicing and learning and put them in the binder in the first section… the second section is for patterns. So if he misses “ahead” I might ahve a list of 10 other “a-?” words or ea-short-e words (dread, bread, dealt, wealthy, health, etc).
BEfore we read each day we read the word list and pattern lists. Five times in a row right and it’s starred and just reviewed eery once in a while. Doesn’t take long before there’s a nice long list of “stuff I know that I didn’t know before, so maybe I’m learning something.”
The _NEver Too Late to REad_ book also goes into the other elements of reading & language for adolescents per Alice Ansara, Orton-Gillingham guress (female guru??). It describes pretty much waht I was trained in at the college prep school for LD kids where I got my training (though we didn’t use that book).

You already have some excellent input. Those CTOPP composite scores are, I believe, standard scores? The mean is 100? If so, then the rapid naming score is very, very weak and this does cause reading problems.

However, I believe a bit more testing should have been completed. I would have liked to have known his WJIII word identification score (probably would be fine, is untimes) and his word attack score. The GORT (Gray Oral Reading Test) is a timed test and reading rate feeds significantly into the standard score. We qualified a child this past fall based on a 79 on the GORT. On untimed measures using informal reading inventories and the WJIII, this child’s scores ranged from less than a year below grade level to grade level. The only issue we could actually pin down was a rate and fluency issue.

Another area that might have been assessed to further clarify comprehension issues is that of listening comprehension. The WIAT has a subtest that offers a standard score. Otherwise, we can use informal reading inventory passages and read them aloud to the child, asking comprehension questions orally. I think when a child can comprehend successfully orally, there is not likely to be a language comprehension issue, but rather reading issues that negatively impact comprehension. It is possible the child is expending so much effort at basic word recognition, little mental energy is left for comprehension. Or, at first grade level a couple of well-placed reading errors can eradicate the comprehension of key concepts or points in the selection and cause a low comprehension score. These are things the examiner can identify and include in her report.

What to do? I really like Ken Campbell’s program “Great Leaps” for students who have rapid naming, reading rate and reading fluency issues. It is so inexpensive you can purchase it and use it at home in about 5 minutes per day. You can even supplement the program, once you catch on to the “system.” I have made a few extra “probes” to insert here and there.

Naturally the ideas you have received from Sue and Susan are worthwhile. If you continue with the support you started at home, you CAN get this bright fellow going successfully.

Thank you so much for all of your insight and kind words. I wish the teachers at his school were as helpful. I’m getting a lot of the “let’s wait until he fails” attitude. Anyway I hadn’t heard of the things you proposed, so I will certainly try it. He is such a good kid, I hate to see him crushed as he was in Kindergarten. So, with wonderful people like all of you helping us, we will try to stay ahead of the curve and avoid those roadblocks. Thanks again and have a very Happy New Year!

There are some good ideas for fluency that I swiped from the IDA journal ‘cause they’re generous with permissions, and put on my site at www.resourceroom.net — look under “reading and spelling.”)

I’m also usually at www.net-haven.net on Thursday nights if you want to chat especially specifics about reading & spelling — as always, everybody’s welcome. (THursday is loosely “education night”)

Thanks Sue,
I’ll be sure to look at the articles,and drop in .
Thanks a bunch.

Just wanted to tell you that, based on your post, I had my son track with a pencil and it makes a big difference. I have tracked with a pencil for him but he really cut down to almost nothing the word skipping when he did it himself.

Beth

Thanks — I’ve been recommending this for years.