Davis Approach? CAN ANYONE GIVE ME SOME INSIGHT?

The stories are sweet and/or painful, the anecdotes lie thick on the ground, and the facts are few and far between. When a Davis employee tried to justify the claims academically on this site, I found several direct untruths along with a lot of misdirection and BS.

If the Davis people only taught kids and taught them welll they would be getting all sorts of positive reports like LMB and PG.
But they also have a highly aggressive public relations (?) approach which includes internet attacks on people like myself who question them, a lot of claims that don’t hold water when investigated, and a lot of people who claim to have fantastic success with the program but who do not actually demonstrate the reading and writing skills they claim to have learned.

For your friend’s son, the question arises of *who* is evaluating him as being on grade level. I could work with him for a year and give him a test I made up myself and claim he had made six years’ progress according to my own tests — would this be trustworthy? Then there’s the question of how much his present success is based on the basic skills he learned at the Reading Foundation last year — many kids take off after getting those basics straightened out — and how much on a miracle cure.

Victoria,

The public school board assessed him at the end of this year. He is still on an IPP, yet has come up to his grade level in reading.
From all the reasearch I did yesterday on this “Davis Approach”, I have not found too many good comments. Even on Shcwab Learning, when I also posted a question on it.
I just wanted to make sure I was going in the right direction. It is always nice to meet someone where they have had a good success rate with a program. I wish I didn’t have to go through all this trial and error stuff with my son, it is always disappointing when something does not work for him. He wants to read so bad, he will pick up books at the library, that he can’t read, but brings them home anyway and tells me that he will read it soon. He goes to bed with his books in his hand.

I think I will stick with my 1st instinct and go with the Reading Foundation, where Dr. Trush and his techniques are well known, there are clinical studies done with Phono-graphiz, LiPS, and his own program.

I would go to the Reading Foundation myself.

Again with regard to your friend’s child, a year of basics can lay the foundation for a lot of progress later.
I have had this happen to me; I work hard with a student for months on end, and then just as we are getting a grip on the problem the parent gets a new idea and goes to try a new system elsewhere; then when the kid blossoms out it is never all the foundation skills that I worked so hard with him on, it’s the new miracle cure.
Be cautious about claims of overnight miracles —they are usually based on something longer-term that doesn’t get mentioned.

Victoria, I thought this was interesting. I went back onto The Reading Foundation site, and there is a link to “Clinical Studies”. Anyway, I read this article on Visualizing Verblaizing (here is the link if you want to read it

http://www.readingfoundation.com/10subcat/content/study_hyperlexic.pdf

But this paragraph is interesting:

Terms like “dyslexia” have been used to describe students with specific reading disabilities
in word recognition. In fact, the 1994 revised definition of “dyslexia” states it is
a phonologically-based reading disorder.

I agree with you, I think I better just stay away from the Davis approach, or at least until I know more about it and read his books.
Thanks for your info.
Terese

Perhaps it’s already occured to you — that
that “overnight” gain really came from all those earlier efforts.

One serious problem is that the quality of the teacher is a huge factor. A really good teacher can make a mediocre program work well; a poor teacher can make a good program stall out. Just to complicate matters, some teachers are great with students that learn the same way they do and a disaster with others.

One-man & one-family programs have built-in problems since the authors don’t have the advantage of outside perspectives and input (I’m thinking of PG and Davis; PG has an even worse record for aggressive self-promotion). When somebody has several options up their sleeves (such as the person you describe), I figure it’s far more likely they’re going to teach the student, not their program. I suspect the Davis program may work wonderfully with a good teacher, for students with learning needs similar to that of Ron Davis. I’d read the books and see how my kiddo compares, wiht an analytical eye.

When somebody gets great results, they want to share them — but there’s a real tendency to see all problems as “nails” when you’ve got a hammer, whether they are or not. However enthusiastic your friend is, your experience could be totally different.

You quote:

Terms like “dyslexia” have been used to describe students with specific reading disabilities
in word recognition. In fact, the 1994 revised definition of “dyslexia” states it is
a phonologically-based reading disorder.

OK, you are opening up a huge discussion here.
Since the problem with dyslexia/ reading disability (same thing, don’t get led off into an argument on semantics) is that the kid looks at the page and doesn’t seem able to figure out the meaning of the word symbols he sees, the obvious first assumption is that something is wrong in the visual area. This theory is reinforced by the fact that many kids with reading problems write all mixed up and reversed; it was assumed for years that they saw things reversed. Also the style of the time from around 1900 to 1960 or 1970 was to stress silent reading and de-stress the oral factor.
But after decades of studies, from teaching experiments to brain scans, it has been found that for 80% or more of kids with reading disability, the problem is NOT in seeing the symbols, but in translating the visual symbols to the sounds of language.
Please note that the other 20% who DO have visual problems (and some who have both visual and auditory) do exist and do need help, of different kinds. There is a common fallacy of “80% equals all”, which causes a lot of trouble in education.
It has been found that programs such as for example Lindamood Bell and Orton Gillingham which train students to analyze sounds and relate those sounds to the written symbols are the only ones that make a real change in students with dyslexia/ reading disabilities. So, the focus has been changed to concentrate on phonological training, because this is what works.

Visual problems and visual problems combined with phonological difficulties are a field that is still very controversial. Some people swear by vision therapy and others get nothing at all out of it. Others have had luck with sensory integration therapy, and again some have had no success with it. There are really no definitive answers yet here.

Now to Davis.
You say you are going to read his books. Well, just read them with your analytical faculties in high gear. He tends to make a lot of statements as established fact, when really they are no such thing, just his own personal theories.
Davis still thinks that dyslexia is primarily visual, a theory which has been rejected by most others on solid scientific ground. He rejects the slow and steady re-teaching of phonological skills which has been proved to work with the majority of people, and instead proposes his own mental refocus (never very clearly defined) as an instant cure. He takes sight-memorization approaches to reading (rejected since the 1960’s as inefficient and a dead-end by most knowledgeable people) repackaged under new names and claims they are his own new discoveries and inventions. He also does a lot of attitude and self-esteem counselling, and I have seen some negative results out of this. He claims that dyslexia is a gift and implies that dyslexics are gifted, superior people, which can lead to other problems.
One thing Davis did invent that a lot of people seem to have gotten some value out of is forming clay letters. Instead of making pencil marks on paper, students are encouraged to form letters out of clay as a way to learn the symbols. This is a nice tactile-kinesthetic exercise, a way to concentrate on the letter shapes, and a way to get out of the cycle of pencil-and-paper failure. I’m sure it is a valuable tool. But you can’t hang an entire theory of teaching and an entire program on one tool.

WOW…I am so impressed with the information I get here.

Victoria, don’t get the idea that I know what I am talking about…cause I don’t. :) I am all new to this. My son was recently diagnosed with Mild Cognitive Disabilities. So, I have just begun my journey! I am just trying to gather as much information as I can. He was in Sylvan Learning centre for a year, and $4,000.00 before I really understood what “cognitive” meant. I am upset that Sylvan did not realized that they could not really help him.

My cousin is doing her doctorate in Pschycology, and she has spoken to a lot of her professors, and there are some that have heard of “Davis”, and some that have not. Obviously this is not a well grounded study of his.
One Professor emailed her this: Can you tell me if you have heard of this book which he mentions.

I’ve always had difficulty finding good books on intellectual disability.
The best one (and it’s great) I’ve stumbled on is “Sexuality: Our sons and daughters with intellectual disabilities by Karin Melberg Schweir and
> David Hingsburger. The title can be scary for many parents but it’s much more than a “Birds and Bees” book. The book does cover some aspects of sexuality but it also does a great job of making the point that people with intellectual disabilities are human beings deserving of respect. There are a number of very positive, affirming stories in the book that parents really appreciate.

I thank you for your information. I am still learning, and will continue to read more and find more information.

I have no idea why that book was mentioned. I just did a search on that Author, not exactly what I was expecting, and not sure why they would suggest that book..makes no sense to me!

You say,
“He wants to read so bad, he will pick up books at the library, that he can’t read, but brings them home anyway and tells me that he will read it soon. He goes to bed with his books in his hand.”

While you are working on remediation, please consider letting him listen to books on tape or MP3 player. That at least opens up the world of literature access to him. If you can get your hands on a IPOD mini, he could even download books in MP3 format and listen to them. He would be very cool with a device like that which is an extremely popular tool. Give him a copy of the book to follow along with the tape and he can “read” in bed before he falls asleep.
The easiest, no-cost solution if you already have a tape recorder, is to borrow books on tape from your library.

The Davis method will work with kiddos that are visual-spatial. If I had a child with troubles that fit the “Davis” pattern, I would look into it. A good provider should be able to tell you if the Davis program will be beneficial after seeing your child.

I know some who frequent this board are skeptical, but I’m not.

I have heard alot of good things about the Rocky Mountain Davis Facility — I suspect we have here the combo that Sue speaks of — a really good, intuitive teacher can work wonders with most students, because such a person will automatically use a variety of tried-and-true techniques, focused upon the individual learner. Davis methods in the hands of such a person are VERY effective, provided the follow-up work is done at home — Davis is NOT an ‘overnight’ method — LOTS of hard work goes into a full Davis program, after the initial week. This ‘mis-perception’ is too complicated to explain here — but it is a ‘MIS-PERCEPTION’!

I have done alot of research on Davis, and have used the methods to some extent with my child — Ron Davis is no charlatan! BUT…Victoria does have some points, and I agree with (I think it was Sue) the point someone made that a person who finds a method that DOES work ‘miracles’ in specific cases, tends to expand their method to fit ‘all kids’ — let’s remember, we have some posters on this site whose kiddos were not ‘saved’ by PG or LMB either. I DO BELIEVE that Ron Davis has some very valid methods for certain learners. They are not THE ONLY methods — and not for EVERY learner — but they are NOT snake oil!!!

I agree with other posters that, if you have a good teacher and she has the tools you have mentioned, TRY HER — don’t second-guess yourself. You will know if it is helping, quite soon, by your child’s attitude. What counts is not the method, but the results — after 100% reading failure in Gr. 1 (fully whole language classroom!) I sent my son to a local private school summer program — we found one of those ‘SUPER’ teachers (a ‘Victoria-Sue’, you might say!) and via Spalding (an OG based program, I believe) plus lots of bits and pieces, from her 20-year career ‘toolbox’, he was reading ‘Easy Readers’ in FIVE WEEKS…this was a kid that could NOT learn one sight word reliably for 24 hours, NOT ONE!!!!

I’d also like to mention that this wonderful dyslexia/teaching expert RECOMMENDED the Davis book and methods! They are also used by the SPED dept at that private school. Late in Gr 1 they were also recommended by a sped teacher at my son’s school — but I had chosen the private school by then, so did not bother to look into it. When they were AGAIN recommended, I finally read the book, and I highly recommend it in turn. Not as EVERYTHING — but as a good solid brick in the wall of understanding reading problems and what to do about them…

So, my opinion, for what it’s worth — go with your plan! The teacher you mention sounds like ‘just what is called for’. But get the book ‘Dyslexia: The Gift’ and read it…any kiddo who is suffering reading failure will not be hurt from learning that he may have an ‘engineer brain’ or a ‘artist brain’ or a ‘salesman brain’ that is WAY above average…just as his visual/phonological skills may be less than average…sure helped my sad little man back in Gr. 1! I agonized whether to share the term dyslexia and the lessons in the book with my son — I am so glad I did.

BTW…he is now reading VERY WELL, according to his teacher, at the top of his class in Gr. 5. He reads for pleasure, typical 5th-6th grade books, on average about 2 hours a day — reads more than he watches TV most days! We still have spelling problems to unravel, but we’ll get there — SO WILL YOU! Hope you’ll keep us posted — best wishes for a great summer.

KTJ,
Funny, I tried that and he was just not interested. He does like following music. If he is interested in songs, I will try to find the music / words for him on the net, and print it out for him, and he will try to read it from the paper and listen to it on his discman.

We have probably every type of “Leap Frog” stuff, the books he can read and follow along, do the activities/games. He likes that, but only with his head phones on. It only lasts a short period, then he gets “bored”. He loves it when I read to him. It is our time at night. Mostly Cat in the Hat books, because I make them fun when I rhyme the words. I know he knows some of the words, and if I try to get him to read, he will turn his head the other way.

Maybe if he had a new toy as a mp3, it may work, but who knows how long that would last for though.

Anyway, it is a great suggestion! Mind you, we tried this a couple years back, when someone else suggested it, maybe he will change his tune. I will try again.

My son won’t even play computer games. I have bought all the Reader Rabbits, etc, but he gets fustrated easily, and quites. I try to help, he just gets “Bored”. Don’t know what else there is that I can do! Can you believe this, he DOES not watch TV. I can’t remember a time where he watched a whole program…..Pshycologist tell me to get thim to watch learning programs (Magic School bus, etc.), do fun games on the computer, but how am I to do this, when he does not watch TV, or do computer games. All his friends love coming over because we have Play Station, X-box, Nintendo, Gameboys…..but, my son will not play. He will watch his friends play instead.
In the last little while my son calls himself “stupid” and will hit himself over the head! I tell him that he is not stupid, that he is the brightest boy I know….He asks me why people don’t understand him when he talks, he asks me why he can’t get the words out of his mouth that he wants to say. I hope that this Reading Foundation will give him the confidence he needs to pick up a book and try.

One of my ‘moments’ was when my nephew came home one day in Gr. 5 (this was when my son was in Gr. 2, late winter, and we had just found “Captain Underpants’ so we had turned the ‘I WANNA READ’ corner and were moving ahead rapidly.). He had been with a new reading buddy, and said: ‘it’s really sad…he HITS himself when he makes a mistake, remember, like Davey used to?’ HOW could I forget??? The pain of watching that brings tears even now!

We were way past that horrible stage, by that time, thank goodness, but I just wanted to tell you: you are at the beginning of the END of the ‘I’m hitting my stupid head’ stage! You are now tracking down his difficulties, and you will conquer them, one by one.

Just remember — even if the Dr. Trush program doesn’t work, you WILL FIND what does! Keep reading aloud — I SO believe in that.

I also wanted to say — hang out at these boards — look into Vision Therapy, and maybe post a request for input on the Parenting A Child with LD board — some very knowledgable people post here, and there. Not everyone reads all boards, so it can be good to post on both. We never went with vision therapy, since my son’s problems seemed to resolve during Gr. 4, but it has got to be some kind of red flag that your guy is not wanting to watch TV or play video games in the way his peers do…maybe some of the vision therapy experts will have similar kids…

What exactly is Vision Therapy?

No question in my mind that I’d go to Steve Truch first. However, let me say this. Has your child had a comprehensive evaluation? Were the IQ subtest scores about the same across the board or were some much higher than others? It would be helpful to know about your child’s strengths and weaknesses. But I’d be very unlikely to spend my money for Davis, with the exception of reading the book.

Janis

You need to ask Rod, who posts here occasionally, or LindaF who used to post here a lot, about Vision Therapy; Rod is a tutor who refers many kids to a good vision therapist and LindaF is a mother who has been down the same path you’re on and has come up on the other side. The search option on this board will find you a lot of their old posts and they can be very informative.

A rough outline from second-hand information: vision therapy consists of exercises to re-train your eyes. Your eyes are moved by a complex set of tiny muscles, and like all muscles they can have coordination problems and weaknesses, and like all muscles they can be strengthened by repeated exercise. As in any other kind of exercise, you have to do the right kind of exercise and the right amount; too much can cause strain, too little can have no effect, and doing the wrong kind of exercise can strengthen the wrong things. So it is important to get someone knowledgeable and experienced to guide you. Two websites which I have NOT seen myself, I am just passing on second-hand information, be very careful buying from strangers, are covd.org and childrens vision (forget if it’s org or com) There is also a book and a CD which have been recommended for home exercise, names will be in old posts, again please be careful.

Janis,

My son had a WISC III test done a year ago, in grade One. On all of his subtests he scored in the 1%. The write up that they Psychologist did, had a description of what they tested for, and in all the test, it mentioned a “Significantly below average”.

Verbal Comprehension - 2nd percentile
Verbal Scale was at a 66 (1st percentile
Perception - organization area - 2nd percentile
Freedom from Distractibility area - 1st percentile (in both subtests)
Processing speed area - 2nd percentile
WJ III -2nd percentile
Letter Identification skills - 2nd percentile
Written language - 20th percentile
Quality of written expression - 1st percentile
Math score on WJ III - 1 percentile
Auditory comprehension - 1st percentile
General adaptive composite score on ABAS fell in below average - 12th percentile.

Ok, so not too many strengths here !!! If there was something that I could find on strength I would work with it. He does have a great long term memory. He can notice things that others would not. EG: He loves cars, he knows all the makes of cars. If he were to see a car, he would notice that there were honda tires on that car. He can tell if we have driven through a certain area of town, even if it was a couple of years ago, he would say “Mom, we’ve been here before”.

Now, mind you this WISC was done at the end of grade one, he just finished grade two. He has made some good gains….but, even when Dr. Trush assessed him a month ago, he was still below average. Dr. Trush uses some of the Lindamood bell tests.

So, for the Davis approach to work, I am not sure if he needs to be more aware of his visual capabilities. I am not sure what The Reading Foundation will do. Dr. Trush told me that they will be able to tell within a few days if Braydon will be able to grasp their program, and if not, they will modify it to fit him.
I really feel lost about all this. He is my baby, I want him to succeed!

I was wondering if this would help? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671631985/ref=ase_familyeducati-20/002-9469300-8342441?v=glance&s=books
I have this book. I bought it for my daughter who is not LD but I wanted to teach her to read because she was constantly asking “how” to read.
The book is set up so that it tells you exactly what to say and when.
Not hard to do at all. I do not know if this would help you but I do know it is set up for LD kids. I dont think it could hurt to buy it and take a look at it to see if it would help. You can always return it.
In case the link does not work the book is called “Teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons.” It’s set up for a direct approach to teaching.
I truly hope you you find the help your seeking….I can just see your child cuddling up with a book instead of a teddy bear…breaks my heart!!!
Lisa
By the way..my daughter is 6 and is reading at a 1st grade level now.
My sister who has her doctorate in Sp. Ed said it was fine to use with kids who are not LD but it may be a bit anoying to them…she said it was set up for LD kids.

Everything you say about Dr. Truch sounds really good to me…your son is young and you will figure out what he needs, especially if you hang around here and keep asking questions as you go along. There will be speedbumps, and a few high hills — but you’ll get there!

I agree with Janis that you should definitely go with Truch — but I hope you will read the Davis book, it may give you some insight into your son’s difficulties from a ‘positive’ point of view. This is what I value most about Davis: that he speaks for a group of people ‘like himself’ from the point of view of recognizing their strengths (like your son’s memory skill for cars and related objects, and recall of his surroundings) instead of calling them ‘disabled’, as the ‘rest of the world’ often does.

Davis philosophy teaches a dyslexic to believe that ‘Hey, I’m NOT a broken lawyer — I’m a perfectly fine, visually spacially gifted engineer who has to learn the skills necessary to function in the academic world’.

Not all humans are wired for speech/reading/writing with the same level of talent — just as not all humans are wired with a memory that can recall visual spatial information with the level of talent your son can. Can most of us recall info like that? NO. Is that valued at school? NO. Is talent like that of value to the human race? YES!!!! But talent like that does not come from the type of brain that is naturally good at reading and writing!

Davis believes that in fact, it is their GIFT — their way of thinking and processing, and what leads to the talent — that leads to the DISABILITY — problems with language, sequentiality, etc, especially in the academic world. This is an important facet of Davis’ work — this is the part I believe whole-heartedly. THIS is why Davis tells dyslexics they are gifted — because they ARE! They don’t need to ‘accept their disability’, they need to ERADICATE/COMPENSATE for their difficulties and hone their strengths, in order to one day take their proper place in the adult world.

Post a request for info about Vision Therapy, on the Parenting Board and on this one, as Victoria suggested. It is a slow time of year and some folks are away, but you are bound to get some answers. You could also try searching the site for archives.

You might ask Dr. Truch about Vision Therapy — I bet he’ll have an answer and an opinion! It might even be that they will incorporate activities that will improve his visual skills into the program — as they said, if it doesn’t work, they will adapt their program, and quickly too — THIS to me, even without the great feedback from others on the site, says that you have found the right type of program/tutor for your son.

I predict you will soon be feeling very ‘found’!

Guest — here is MAYBE something — when you mention your son knows all kinds of of things about cars but scores very low on academic testing — this kind of pattern MIGHT be PDD. PDD is considered to be a mild variant on the autism spectrum. I can not diagnose this at a distance from one sentence on the internet, but it is something to look into. If this is the case, then you may be able to get therapy and extra help for him, and other parents and teachers with experience in this field would be able to give you practical advice. The Reading Foundation could still be a great help; just make sure the pace is appropriate and they don’t put excess pressure on him.

Victoria,
I will look into that, but would this not be something that would show up on the numerous tests that we have done with Pschycologists? Braydon (My son) has had with WISC Test done with one Phschycologist, we have been to another Phschycologist and educational specialist ( yet they have only seen all our test results, and spoken to us in depth for a couple of hours), Dr. Trush has assessed him, spent an hour with him and an hour with me. Plus numerous doctors, pediatricians and speech therapists.

I know you are only saying this is something just to look into, and I will. He was tested for Fragile X, which is negative, we have done chromosome tests, etc.
I have really never heard of PDD, but guess what I am going to do today??? :)
Oh, instead of calling me guest, my name is Terese.
I dont know why it comes up guest, I filled in everything to register :)

Hi I think you need to log in to have you name pop up instead of just guest.
At the top of your reply you can log in under username and put in a subject. Give it a try:)
Lisa

Ooops, that would make sense wouldn’t it!
Thanks!

just put your name in the USERNAME spot…if you leave that blank, it will come up ‘guest’. I never log in…was never able to make the registration work some time back when the board changed, and gave up in disgust!

I disagree that such a visual-spatial memory is a ‘marker’ for PDD — it is common to visual spatial learners, including those who have no ‘LD’s —lots of engineer-type boys have unbelieveable skills to recognize things visually. Visual-spatial talents may often be seen in persons with communication disorders, but I disagree that visual spatial talent is a marker for ANY disorder, unless other common markers are also in place.

Extreme problems with social interaction/empathy are more a marker for autism-spectrum disorders, plus meaningless repetitive play - i.e. rolling the little car back and forth for hours while exhibiting a trance-like demeanour, as opposed to playing appropriately with the little car, even if ALL you want to play with is little cars. To me, appropriate play includes driving around the furniture or a toy obstacle course, taking toy men for rides, maintaining an obsessively organized toy dealership all over the basement floor, etc. BIG difference in these types of play — although we all do the trance-like thing occasionally, if we ONLY play that way, it is a red flag.

But your response is good, Terese — you need to know about ALL the difficulties/disorders to find out where your kiddo fits/does not fit. The science of understanding how/why we communicate, learn, and behave is NOT complete and even many respected Drs. could make a mistake — you need to educate yourself in order to make sure they don’t!

READ, READ, READ…you’ll find yourself and your kiddo through learning…

From what I have read already on PDD, my son does not seem to fit that description. He is very very sociable. Has his group of friends, and seems to be the “leader”. He loves his friends, and has no problems socially. Symptoms of PDD, vary, yet one major sign is social interaction, communication, and behavior. Looking at this for the last little while, my little guy shows no problems with his behavior, at all. He is a normal 8 year old. He is one of the politest kindest considerate little boys.
This is the type of person he is. In grade one there was a little girl with Cerebral Palsy, no one really paid much attention to her, but Braydon was always there to help put her chair up on her desk, hold the door open for her at recess, play with her at recess, and become a very good friend to her. Her parents even phoned my house to thank me for a wonderful boy, teacher conferences, they told me how special braydon was. He is always trying and always helpful. He communicates fine, yet not very well verbally because of his speech delay. He can talk just has problems putting his sentences together.

Anyway, I won’t close my mind to this, I will keep searching this out.
Thanks again, all of you who have posted. This is so great having a place to talk and ask questions.

Terese — the reason I suggested you might look into PDD is NOT the fact that it is visual (I’m afraid, Elizabeth, that you have read too much of Davis and you are reading things into my post that were NOT there, I never mentioned visual at all.)
The reason it occurred to me is that your boy is * almost exactly* the same profile as a young adult student I have, age 18. This student has had a fixation on cars and anything to do with them since he was a toddler. He knows all sorts of things about cars, can name makes and models and so on. He is verbally OK, not great but in the low normal range. He is social in a certain way; he has a group of friends and hangs around with them a lot, although many of them are much younger than he is. He wants desperately to make friends with me and says goofy things to try to make me smile and laugh, keeps offering me food, etc. He works when the company can afford him at his dad’s company and gets along well with the other labourers and the secretaries. Despite his weak reading he does know the alphabet and he helps with filing when there is nothing else to do. He drives and likes to drive, is quite competent, finds his way around a major city in two languages, and runs errands for his father’s company, including even a solo drive four hundred miles across the US border; pretty good for age 18, he is quite competent and trustworthy. School was hell for him, he was teased and bullied and victimized and he doesn’t know what to do about it; he is a nice and friendly person. He acts goofy and says weird things to try to make people laugh and some people treat him as a clown, unfortunately reinforcing it, while others bully him. He hardly learned to read at all, basically memorized three or four hundred words by sight, not very accurately, learned to write about a hundred words by memory, and that was all he got out of twelve years of school. Working with him individually, off and on in between his work for the last six months, he is starting to use phonics skills and is amazing himself that he can actually spell words by himself and write things that people can understand; he is reading more like a Grade 4 level, a huge breakthrough. I am using some good ESL materials with him because they have adult subject matter and highly structured grammar exercises; he takes four or five questions not understanding at all what is going on here, and then he clicks into the pattern and finishes the rest quickly. He has never been officially diagnosed but after the fact his family are starting to think it was unrecognized PDD.
When you described your son, I thought he looked an awful lot like this young man must have been twelve years ago: fascinated by cars, friendly but not always able to communicate, wanting to please and fit in but not knowing how, low normal in speech, islands of brightness in among the disabilities. This young man is definitely teachable and should have gotten a better deal in school. That’s why I made the suggestions I did for your son: definitely the Reading Foundation, be very careful to avoid pushing and stressing too hard as he is already working at max capacity and will learn better if he can relax and take time to get the patterns straight in his mind but he *will* learn, and look into variant forms of PDD or??? to see if you can get appropriate therapy and counselling. Also look into Occupational Therapy and cognitive mind/body things such as Interactive Metronome and Sensoty Integration; if your son is like my student he may be having problems with coordination and dealing with sensory input. Almost certainly not Davis, which would probably be highly confusing and stressful for him.

WOW, sounds familiar. So, out of curiosity, who would I mention PDD too? Pediatrician? Phsycholgist? Tutors at the Reading Foundation? Who can diagnose this?

Victoria, what is your position? are you a tutor?
One thing in his WISC test, the Psych. stated that “although the explanations given to him were very basic, he had difficulty understanding what was expected of him, despite much re-explanation”. Here is an example of the stuff that confuses me with him. Right now he is in a hockey camp, all day. One mother takes the kids in the morning and I pick them up at 4:00 after work. They started on Monday, last night, he must have asked me 3 times “Who pick me up tomorrow”? The last time he asked me, my whole thought was, “My god, is he listening to me, why can’t he remember that I am picking him up”. He asks questions like this all the time.
Sometimes he says things and I have to sit back and go ‘Oh, my god, where did that come from”? Sometimes my husband says he can be in a ‘twighlight zone”.
It is like he is trying to say something, but gets it out the wrong way, and then I have to guess what he is trying to ask of me. He will get so upset at time if I can’t understand what he is trying to say. Eg: Mom, you have that watch on your hand”? I will say, yeah I have a watch on my wrist, and he will get angry “NO MOM, WHY YOU HAVE A WATCH ON YOU”. I will try to understand what he is trying to say to me, then I will start guessing on what he is trying to ask me “do you mean, when did I get this watch? “YES” he will say. Do you know what I mean. Things get Gummbled up in his brian and it just does not come out right.
Very fustrating for him!

Ok, I am still a “Guest”. Do I have to log in all the time, even though I do not close up my internet brouser?

This is one peice in the summar from the WISC that I did not even really notice.
So, he does have some strenght, although little, but there is something there.

“Average skills and personal strenghts were suggested in visual details dependant on familiarity on common objects”.

[quote=”Anonymous”]KTJ,
We have probably every type of “Leap Frog” stuff, the books he can read and follow along, do the activities/games. He likes that, but only with his head phones on. It only lasts a short period, then he gets “bored”.

I have bought all the Reader Rabbits, etc, but he gets fustrated easily, and quites. I try to help, he just gets “Bored”. Don’t know what else there is that I can do! Can you believe this, he DOES not watch TV. I can’t remember a time where he watched a whole program.
[/quote]

Anonymous;

Have you considered hearing problems in you son? Or perhaps Auditory Processing difficulties (APD)?

What you describe sounds like my dd before she completed one round of FastForWord (FFW) - therapy for APD. After completing FFW she’s been enjoying computer, TV (perhaps even too much :roll: ), and is reading at high grade level (she just finished grade 2 and her reading is at high grade 2 - grade 3 level). Her spelling and sight reading have also improved greatly (both above grade level now) after completion of FFW.

Good luck!

Rubby

Ruby, we have done numerous hearing tests, and everything seems to be fine.
In grade 1 he had an amazing teacher, who thought that the kids would listen better, so she had a seperate corner with the read along books, and ear phones, she found that this worked great to get their attention. I think my son just likes the idea of ear phones. (Maybe). Out of all responses I have had here and suggestions on what to look for why would doctors or pediatricians not mention all this to me …eg: PDD, APD….? would they not look for this stuff?

Terese — your questions:

(1) I am a private tutor. I have lots of degrees, which I don’t usually hang out on the line here, but just to let you know I’m qualified I have a BSc, a BA Honours Math, a BA Languages and Linguistics, and an MA in Education, all from very reputable universities (The BA’s are from Bishop’s :) ). I also take other courses as possible, and I keep up with my reading here online.

(2) You need to talk to a neuropsychologist who works with kids with developmental delays. You’re in Calgary so you have university resources and the Foothills Hospital and others, so you should be able to get something there, or if not there you could also look in Vancouver — UBC would certainly have people. Look around and see if you can find someone who works with Asperger’s, PDD, and other autism spectrum disorders. I’d start at the universities, use both web search and personal calls/visits, and get referrals to neuropsychologists from there. Or, your family doctor may be able to do a referral if you can figure out who to refer to. It may take some looking and you may need to make a few visits before you find someone both up-to-date and positive. Leep up the good fight.

(3) The reason you are getting so much confusion is that it’s a very confused field. The human brain is complex and people are just beginning to understand some things that have been mysteries for all of history up to now. The whole field of autism spectrum is pretty much new; in the 1980’s, less than twenty years ago, a UBC instructor was firmly telling us that autism was just mental retardation. It takes a while for new discoveries on what is going on and even newer discoveries on how to treat things filter down to the field. So it is absolutely vital to do a search for somebody who is both up-to-date and open-minded about new approaches, and not give up when you get the brush-off.

(4) The business of repeating and repeating the exact same question and not seeming to connect to the answer — that is *exactly* like my student. Drives me up a wall. I’ve tried to talk to him about it and I think some things are sinking in, but slowly. He has a bear-trap brain: takes a two-hundred pound force to get something into it, but once something is in he snaps onto it and it’s in forever.
Since we started the off-and-on tutoring eight or nine months ago, he has shown notable improvements in a number of areas: he is more self-confident in general; he’s keeping his clothing and rooms cleaner; he is speaking of himself as a worker and has worked as many hours as they can pay him for; he is phoning me and making and breaking appointments with confidence and keeping track of a complicated schedule. Here’s an odd thing — this young man speaks more normally and communicates better on the phone than in person. He wants to take a heavy-equipment repair class, and the problem is that he needs a Grade 10 equivalence to get in but his abilities were too low for the adult ed class, where he reported that they just yelled at him. I’m trying to get his basic reading and writing up to a point where he can get into some training programs and succeed, and we have already made him more employable so that is a huge success right there.
I do want to point out with this student that, even with no appropriate help at all and a schooling that was terrible, he is a nice guy and has a number of competences, such as being able to run a four-hundred mile cross-border delivery; if your little guy gets better help, he should be able to develop all sorts of abilities, maybe not become a university professor but might be a darned good truck driver and/or mechanic.

Victoria,

I am taking my son to a doctors app’t today so I can get a refferal to a SLP through CHR. Do you think it would be a good idea to speak to him about PDD, or getting a referal for a neuropsychologist, or is this something that I should look into myself?
Honestly, he is a younger doctor, and just a family physician, I am not sure how informed he would be of all the different aspects of LD, PDD, etc.

I would second looking into Auditory Processing Disorder—the child may do fine on ordinary hearing tests, but his ability to process various sounds into words may be impaired. Can he easily follow multi-step directions? Can he follow the sort of rapid conversations you might have with a close friend? There are special tests for auditory processing, which, as these things go, are fairly cheap and give relatively objective results. A good SLP could refer you to a place for the testing—they are often universities as they require special equipment. I suggest you do a google search on APD and see if what you find matches up with what you observe in your child. Unremediated APD children often do poorly on IQ tests. Fast Forward can be (but not always) incredibly helpful for these children. APD children often are dx’ed PDD, but in their case it’s not terribly helpful as it doesn’t help you to sort out useful remediation.

DEFINITELY get a professional evaluation for Auditory Processing Disorder, and yes, stress that you can have ears that work fine physically bit if the signal gets mixed up with static on the way to the higher brain you still have a serious problem.
Your family doctor may not know about all these things, but if he is a good doctor he will be willing to work and research for you. You could start by printing out this discussion and info from the LD In Depth page and anything you get from a googfle search and taking it to him as a basis for discussion. He may not be able to help directly but he should be able to direct you to other people who can. Keep working and keep looking and don’t take the first pat answer.
And do please let us all know how things progress.

Mariedc,

My son does not follow direction easily. A three step direction would be ok for him, but much more, he gets confused, or may forget. Sometimes if I am speaking to him, or trying to explain something to him, it is like I have to speak very slowly, or expain myself in great detail what I am trying to say.

We had a doctors appt’ today, but after an hour of waiting I go pissed off, and left. We will be back on Tuesday night for the app’t. I have my son and his close friend in a hockey camp, so his friend came with us to the doctors. They both went to the corner to look at the basket of toys that doctors ususally have in their office. I watched them both (both the same age 8yrs old), and his friend went for a book, more of an advanced book. My son grabbed a car (he loves cars), got on his knees, and drove the car on the floor, he went back to the toy box, and grabbed some “Baby” toys, while his friend sat there quietly and read a book. There was a stuffed Barney there, and the two boys started talking about Barney, and his friend said something like “Barney is not real, you know that right”, my son looked at him and looked at me and said “Mom, Barney not real?” I couldn’t believe he thought Barney was real. His friend started to laugh at him. It made me think about how behind he really is. Kinda a wake up call.

Victoria, if I would have gotten into my doctors today, I would have asked him about getting a referral to a neuropsychologist. I will do some research, but how will I know if someone is “up to date like you said?

Your son can follow a three-step direction?? My daughter, gifted excellent student and nice young person age 21, still can’t follow two steps verbally!! She learned early on to tell people one thing at a time and to double-check herself. So your son does have some abilities there.

The mismatch in play with his friend: yes, this is a sign of problems. He’s into the teasing age and unfortunately it’s likely to get worse before it gets better. Absolutely definitely keep up things like hockey camp and other sports and other guided activities as much as possible so he keeps up a social life and freindships where the focus is not on his differences.

Getting a doctor who is up-to-date: go in with the information you have gleaned about APD and PDD and ask the doctor where he thinks you should go from here —
Very bad reply, get out of the office and don’t go back: Just accept that your boy is slow, don’t put your own expectations on him, and let him develop at his own pace, he’ll figure things out when he is ready.
OK, possible, you can work with this: I don’t know much about this field but let me look into it and I’ll get back to you next week with what I find.
Very good, you may have a winner here: Dr. X at Y hospital works with this area; let me give you a referral to him. (Note that you will also have to check out Dr. X and may have to ask for another referral — it took me three endocrinologists and that’s an established field.)

Victoria,

I think he is fine to follow an easy 3 step direction. Eg: Go upstairs, brush your teeth, turn off the light, and get your pj’s on. I would always test him on this when he was younger, because it was starting to worry me that he was having problems following a 2 step direction. But, he is much better than when he was 4 or 5 years old.

I am not sure what you mean in your last paragraph:
possible, you can work with this: I don’t know much about this field but let me look into it and I’ll get back to you next week with what I find.
Very good, you may have a winner here: Dr. X at Y hospital works with this area; let me give you a referral to him. (Note that you will also have to check out Dr. X and may have to ask for another referral — it took me three endocrinologists and that’s an established field.)

You dont know much about what field? Dr X? at Y hospital.??

There is so much that is confusing me about all the LD’s out there. PDD, ADD, ADHD, APD …and more that I am not familiar with.

Well, if I told my daughter to go upstairs, brush her teeth, and put her PJ;s on, I would have some doubts whether the teeth would get brushed. Or she would come back and ask me what she was supposed to do. No joke. This is a good sign for your son.

My last paragraph there was just sample answers someone might give you. A bad answer would be to just give up, a fairly good answer would be that the doctor will research and work with you, and a good answer would be that he knows about the field and can refer you to someone. We use X and Y as blanks to fill in later, Dr. X just means the name of some doctor, I don’t know because I’m not there.

Thanks for all your information and support.
My son will start with The Reading Foundation tomorrow and I do an update later on during his time there.

I will also talk to the doctor to see what his suggestions are. I just hate not knowing if these “family” doctors actually know what really is going on with the different LD’s out there.
I am actually going to print this out for myself just for reference :)