to des -- re Barton

The program costs reflect that you are paying for training which is on video tape. Each book or level costs about $300-350. There are ten levels, but I think it is quite unlikely that anyone will finish all ten levels, unless maybe you work with your own kids (I have heard of it in that case) and the other factor is age. Barton is really geared for maybe the ten year old and plus set (not younger kids). I think 9 is so is workable but there is an age/vocabulary difficulty involved. As for how many levels is typical for a tutor, I would guess thru level 4-5. My experience has been that you get a kid there and they are reading awful well at that point. It is hard to sell going any further. The other thing is that Barton is very scripted, tells you exactly what to say. I rarely do this anymore but it is for first timers and to keep beginners from blundering too far off. And to eliminate things like lesson planning. It does give you specific lists of words and so on that is very nice. And also contains stories and that type of thing. You would almost certainly need to watch the videos, even with your knowledge. There is just enough different or unusual that won’t make much sense otherwise. (most come with 2 videos). I don’t know if she has separate provisions on mailing to Canada.

Actually with your background you could prob. do an online Orton (I mean seriously Orton) program and get the needed skills, since you are prob. pretty much on the same level anyway. You could even make sense of the Orton Gillingham tome from www.epsbooks.com). Mind you I wouldn’t recommend this to anybody (maybe no one else). But I’m thinking you are pretty much doing anythign that Orton folks are doing, plus or minus.

Orton is basically a few things things: it is the specific scope and sequence (no two programs are identical but they are all similar enough); a set of some multisensory proceedures (some common proceedures are air or table writing, some way of marking individual words by tapping, touching; handwriting, etc);a use a specific syllable types to teach decoding; there is also a secret decoder ring and handshake. (I could email you this but I am under threat of death if I reveal too much. :-))
It is even possible the books you work thru (Check and Double check) are Orton based anyway. There is also a neat group on yahoo (mostly parents), you can search thru multisensory reading. These are parents who are doing sort of homemade Orton. There are also some separate resources to get the basic order and syllable division ideas.

As for paying for the program in lieu of the lessons, is that in most cases this will not help you much. :-) ,you are likely to make more tutoring than the program costs. So the real problem is the upfront costs. Unless you are a lot cheaper than I am. (Of course it might be somewhat different if you buy the program for ONE child but still I think the maths— as they say on the continent— are in your favor. But then you could turn around and sell the program to others here or elsewhere.)

—des

[quote=”victoria”]I have a potential new client who wants OG.

I believe I understand from you posts that you can get the entire Barton materials and training at a distance — is that right?
Can you give me an estimate for the cost?

If the parent is motivated enough, I may get her to pay for the program in lieu of pay for the lessons.[/quote]

Yes, I already do stuff that is at least Orton-related.

My problem is getting the secret decoder ring and the right to advertise brand-name.
I might just get the Orton manual; that is possible.
$300 a level for Barton does sound interesting but I **HATE** sitting through educational videotapes — they are just so slow and I get antsy. And both the VCR’s are broken anyway …

The problem is not *me* being cheap — the problem is being self-employed, my ex forgetting to pay the final year of the transition alimony, and the house being foreclosed on.
Everybody else in the world is being cheap on me; what to do, what to do.

Victoria,

I have another suggestion since you don’t really need all the training that Barton would include. I think you can get the Sonday program for much less than Barton (probably about $600 for the whole thing). It has some videos, but not as many as Barton.

http://www.sondaysystem.com/index.shtml

Another option is to use some of the EPS materials in addition to taking the 10 hour online OG intro course offered by EPS. Recipe for Reading is very inexpensive and is given in the trainings of this OG training program:

http://orton-gillingham.com/index.asp

Let me look and I may have an OG book and a Recipe for Reading I could part with at a low price. I have too much stuff anyway!

Janis

Well I think Barton is considered to be Orton influenced, but as I have seen several Orton based programs at this point (the Scottish rite; Wilson; and Spalding) I have to say that she added and simplified vs taking anything away.

I don’t blame you as per videos. I am not really all that fond of them (and as they go her’s are very thorough— much different than the Wilson or LiPS videos that I have seen). She goes thru every lesson, etc. etc. and assumes basically zero knowledge, which is a strength for some I would guess, but a big negative for you. That’s one reason (aside from upfront cost) why I was suggesting other stuff.

I think that Recipe for Reading is about the cheapest (least through Orton based system)— not sure you could claim the decoder ring. The online course or the Sonday system sound like ideas. Another is that the Wilson program has some videos and the materials, due to her superior marketing and just being around longer, are cheaper. The videos are less intensive and I think that you can fast forward thru them more easily. They are not supposed to be quite equal to the 3 day workshop, but with you viewing them, I don’t see why you couldn’t say you had had the basic training. I think the materials in the basic kit are pretty nice with a manual, manipulatives, rule book, and dictation book and 6 student books for about $165 or so. And the videos are another $165. Another plus is that the program is not scripted, so you can throw in what you know a little more easily. There is a lesson plan model and you can just follow that and fill in with your own stuff or their’s as you see fit.

Same would be said for getting the online Orton training (not sure how long it is) and then get the Orton manual. There are materials like manipulatives and books, that are charmingly old fashioned which might appeal to you. :-P I think the Orton online training is pretty reasonable, somethign on the order of $150.

I think the Sonday system, online Orton, or Wilson videos might all allow you to claim the secret decoder ring. You could also cover your bases and say you do Orton *based* reading instruction.

BTW, I would never claim that you were “cheap”, I was being facetious. Any private tutor is going to have to watch their expenses. I don’t even know how you make ends meet. I sure wish I could do it again as I thought I made more of a difference, but alas I can’t really make a living doing it. The public school thing is not so hot, and I don’t think I am doing too much.

—des

Oh yeah, Wilson webpage:
http://www.wilsonlanguage.com

—des

I just reread to say that your vcrs are broken. If you want the secret handshake you have to either get some kind of training in video, DVD,
online, or in person. They cheapest option (unless you can find something in person in your immediate area—depending on what it is) is online or video. YOu can get a new vcr for $100 and prob. a used one for a LOT less. Unless you just say, you do Orton based reading instruction and stop at that. I don’t claim to do Orton anyway, I say Orton based. And answer specifically if someone asks.

—des

Thanks all for the good info. The online basic course sounds like just the ticket for me. After the house goes on fire sale and I get a few cents out I’m going to try to do a few of these.

des, I think the only online Orton training is the introductory 10 hours, and that is really not training, although it is recognized as a valid intro by the Orton certifiers. The training comes after that.

I think Wilson is a good idea because they do have some online or distance training. But they want people to be certified to advertise that they use it, so you have to jump through those hoops if you really want to use Wilson. That would be the primary reason I wouldn’t choose Wilson because of having to say, I use it but am not certified. Better to choose one that does not require certification if you can’t do the certification requirements.

Janis

Well Janis I think there is a difference between certified and trained. I think you could say you had training in Wilson or Orton, but Wilson (as they are bigger and more funded could conceivable object). OTOH, Wilson does offer the 10 hour training which they do call training. So I think as long as you don’t say you are certified you are ok.
I don’t think that some of these things would be enough if you had no background at all. If you had no background at all, I think that Barton is the logical thing. But we are talking about Victoria, who has a lot more background.

The other thing is to use the Wilson materials and then do the Orton online. Really some of the materials are very nice. A little more updated than some of the Orton stuff. I think you wouldn’t need too much familarity with it if you were at Victoria’s level. The manual is pretty good and there is a stock lesson plan/ outline/ scope and sequence to go on. You could say that you had Orton training and used Orton based or Orton influenced methods for __ no. of years.

You don’t overadvertise your training. I was quite honest about my background with LiPS. I said that I had not taken their training, that I had studied the manual for 50-100 hours. I told them that if we didn’t get any results that we could stop and look for someone else. Of course I don’t think the parents were looking for LiPS, but their kids did not pass the Barton screening. I honestly think at that point I had connected enough with the kids/parents that it didn’t matter much. Now if I thought I couldn’t handle it, I would not have taken them on. But I was less sure of myself on the first kid than the second.

I have never said said I had background I didn’t have and never have overadvertised. I think parents accept that. I’m sure there are such people out there.

—des

The real scoop on “certification” is at
http://www.imslec.org/

I am fairly sure that Wilson is “decoder ring” official OG stamp stuff, but Barton isn’t. IMSLEC has lots of different levels of training. I’d look at the options and decide which were going to make me a better teacher, and then figure out the marketing for it. I’d try & talk to the trainer and make sure I didn’t know more than s/he did :-)

Oh gee, certification is a long drawn out process!!! I didn’t think that Victoria wanted to get into all that. If she did it can take years. Even Barton which isn’t as certified (though funny thing I know stuff that Wilson certified folks don’t) even if it is certified. You know that decoder ring can be hard to get. I thought the question was basically how she could say that she did OG based tutoring. I think the thing is how carefully she words it and what she claims.

Wilson training takes about 3 years and you need a student who will accompany you to some trainign sessions. The do this here in ABQ, thru the school district, but not going thru anythign is hard and $$.

The thing is that I think that basically from everythign Victoria says that she does a basically multisensory explicit phonics type program, and has way more background than the typical OG tutor prob. has. Therefore whats’ the easiest way for her to get some “credentials or training” to satisfy this or that parent. The thing is it varies by parent. I can say to one parent exactly what I do and what my background is and to one it is going to be fine and another it won’t be. So you send them on to someone else. You know the people here in ABQ with IDA do not like Wilson and wouldn’t recognize anyone with Wilson (or me), so I think there are political aspects to this as well.

—des

Ya, you betcha. Politics and first and second impressions, previous good & bad experiences, etc.

I try to get into the nitty-gritty of how what I know will help that particular child, and avoid name brands and labels unless that’s all the parent speaks. I’ll talk about age appropriate materials if it’s an older student, all that kinesthetic stuff… and I’m just as concerned about being a good ‘match’ myself - I don’t want to set up false expectations, and sometimes that’s really easy if a parent has a pre-set mindset.

If I were tutoring I would also mention that it’s simply the process that I’m avoiding (though if I were tutoring I probably would get started on it, so I’d say it was a very rigorous, complicated process and I was in the midst of it). I might even say that it’s a very specific process for their very specific methods, and that since I didn’t limit myself to that I wasn’t necessarily going to meet their specific standards, but that what I did worked awfully well :-)

victoria, check this:
http://ortonacademy.org/training.html

there is a person in BC, so you may contact her.

Yikes, Ewa! This would be great stuff for someone researching various ways to get “real” OG training, but it is quite a bit for our Victoria. Victoria really knows her stuff, wants a way to get some bit of training or background so that she can say what she is doing is OG.

IMO, she should stay out of the whole thing. My reason for that is that it would take a long long time for questionable benefit (in her case). Say she what she is doing is Orton based. Show how it is OG based if need be. That might require some background- familariy with materials, scope and sequence, etc.) to be able to show what she is doing is OG and what is not. Funny thing as I go on I start combining more and more of what I know. I’m guessing multisensory explicit phonetics would be more descriptive. Try saying that 3 times real fast. :-)

—des

Thanks everyone. I have bookmarked all the interesting sites. I’ll probably look into the online one soon, after the house sale, moving in Montreal winter, and finding two new roommates, while having more tutoring students than I can schedule, all the little details of life.