Michelle, how is Math U See working out for you?

I think you must mean me. I am seeing lots of lightbulbs in math. The kids like the books. They like the videos. They like the routine. The kids are scoring well on the tests so it seems as though they are progressing quite nicely. The books don’t look babyish so they are not embarrassed to take the books back to their class and work in front of their classmates in the general ed classoom. My student teacher has taken over and it was an easy subject for her with the books/teacher manual. Lesson planning is fairly easy. We shall see how they do on the state tests in May. I feel the students are getting a solid foundation. We may not get to every single state standard but what we do cover is thorough. In my opinion it is better for students to get mastery on skills and have a good understanding vs. covering lots skills that are soon forgotten. I used to try to hit it all but I’m having better success with hitting less but getting to mastery where the kids can usually apply the skill in a story problem which is closer to real life. Yeah!

Some kids need the extra practice pages, others don’t. It works well that everything is right there. We cut back on certain students and move them to their “Individual skill” that is something where they work at their own pace. Those that need additional practice have all they need right in the new math books. We have group time and individual time as well as math facts time.

I love this much better than the Connecting Math or pulling lessons from here and there.

Michelle AZ

Thanks for replying. That sounds encouranging.

Just my opinion, but I think that many of the better programs, and that includes MUS, don’t really cover all the benchmarks. Imo, sometimes not even all the things the kids really need to know (are different things, imo). For example, I don’t think MUS is very strong on teaching money skills. However, I think you can supplement those weaker areas more easily than you can make a poor program like Everyday Math better.
Anyway, to expect kids to learn all sorts of unrelated things and learn them well and have a really good command of them, well I think they are in some cases asking the impossible.

—des

Des or anyone,
I’m curious, have you used Saxon? I haven’t taught special ed with Saxon but I would love to hear from someone who has used both MUS and Saxon to compare. My own children use Saxon but they are not in Special Ed. I like Saxon from what I see. With all the repitition I wonder how it would compare. There are many parents on the Math U See listserv who used to use Saxon and have switched singing the Math U See praises. I’d just love to hear from a classroom teacher since most of the people are still homeschoolers.

I agree with your post by the way.

Michelle

No, I haven’t used it. I did see the texts at the school that I worked at.
(Didn’t see much mention fo manipulatives or in fact any manipulatives in the school— but then they could certainly be doing Saxon wrong.)
I haven’t heard great things about it for LD kids. But I have seen enough posts of parents who are using it with other stuff.

—des

Hi Michelle ~ I’ve used Saxon for a number of years in my resource room, and just began using MUS this fall with one student. I like Saxon. I’ve used grades 2-5, pretty much following the program as is. I did modify the grade2/3 my last year in the section that is supposed to take place during a morning meeting, but that was just in how it was done, without changing the actual problems themselves. The folks on the MUS listserv say that Saxon jumped around too much, but I found that it worked very well. My students had the constant review that they needed to keep all skills fresh. Grades 2+3 do money and time every day as part of the morning meeting (which can easily be done during math time), so those crucial skills are always reviewed.

What was most helpful, and I would never, ever consider doing grades 4 and up without this, is the Adaptations for Special Populations manual. It is expensive, about an additional $200 or more, but is worth every penny. It basically takes all the lessons and put the problems on a worksheet so the students don’t have to copy them onto paper, which can cause all sorts of problems. However, there is much, much more information in there. Students at those levels can more or less work at their own pace. I found that even my LD students only needed help with the newest problems, and then could complete much of the sheet independently. I loved how the 5th grade book gradually integrated fraction sheets (again out of the Adaptations manual) so that students were adding and subtracting mixed numbers in no time, quite easily.

Drawbacks: it doesn’t stress the mastery as MUS does. Multiplication in grades 2+3 goes quickly, especially in 3rd. They introduce some tricks, but the MUS Gamma video gives many more. The students do fact tests every day, so they should be fresh, but you would probably need to go above and beyond for students who need more with multiplication drill. Saxon uses manipulatives for fractions, decimals, and percents at the upper grades (5+), but nothing is included for multiplication and division. I”m excited about how MUS does those skills, and breaks them down into place value for multi-digit multiplication.

I did find, and I would love your thoughts on this, that it was much easier to write IEP objectives with Saxon. They even have sample objectives in the Adapatations manual that I would use at times. I could simply project how far I thought the student would go during the next year, and look to see what was covered in that time frame. I knew that all skills would be covered; with MUS it’s simply one subject per book, and most of Gamma has been a review (as far as the IEP goes), although one that was greatly needed. Would I go back to Saxon in the future? Yes, I think so, but I am loving MUS; we begin lesson 21 tomorrow, and I think it will be fairly easy since my student saw problems like that already. The challenge comes when we begin 2-digit x 2-digit!

I hope this helps!! BTW, I’ve always used the Saxon 2 ed. books; I haven’t seen the newer 3rd edition that came out last year.

Jenn

This was a very informative post. I am printing this out for future reference.

Writing IEP’s in my district is very easy. They are all based on the state standards. There is a bank that we choose from and I usually keep it simple. I write just 2 objectives one in computation and one in math facts. I teach a ton more but just document these. This gives me time to teach. I don’t write objectives to match the program I use so I’m not much help there.

Thanks for posting. Wouldn’t it be neat to have 2 hours of math one for MUS and one for Saxon? One would be solid mastery based and the other light exposure which might get some to mastery for many if that makes sense. I often think I wish I also had 2 hours for reading. One for solid decoding and one for all the other state standards. I just don’t seem to have enough time to get to it all. Our kids have less time scheduled due to resource nature yet they need more repitition. They need manipulatives that take more time to use. I often think we are set up to fail. We have all this pressure to get all these state standards in the brain. Exposure is not enough to get it to stick. Sure we can expose kids to the state standards but getting the kids to master and remember is quite another thing. Good curriculum helps but time restraints kill us.

Michelle

Gosh, I’m so glad the other sped. teachers in my building and I aren’t the only ones who feel that there isn’t enough time! Here in CT we’re no longer allowed to give our LD kids off-level mastery tests (state mandated tests); now they have to take the same grade level, even if they’re reading/writing 3-4 years below grade!!

This fall our sped. director so gently said that since the kids have to take the same tests, we should be doing more in our time to get them up to grade level. And, if that isn’t enough, we’re not supposed to be pulling the kids out ~ all this should be done within the context of our so-called “co-taught” classes, even though some are co-taught in name only. Luckily she doesn’t give us too much grief about pulling the kids out, especially the older ones; but the way she talks to everyone it sounds like we have the perfect program!! You know, I could get everyone closer to grade level, if I could exempt the kids from the regular curriculum and do 2 hours each of reading, writing, and math each day! If you ever find the answer let me know! :)

Jenn

Hey, and since we are almost on the same lesson, you must be rounding off. Here’s a tip I posted a long time ago but looked up again for my student teacher. I thought it was good that we are on the same pace. :)

The post again:

Just got this off teachers.net from Jessica. Thought I’d share as I plan to use it.

Draw mountains!! (I hope this makes sense):

at the bottom left of the mountain is 30, the top is 35, and
the bottom right is 40. If you’re hiking up the mountain
and you stop at 34 and you accidentally fall, where will you
fall? (down to 30). If you hike all the way up to the peak
and you’re at 35, but you accidentally fall, where will you
fall? After all your hard work you don’t want to fall back
down to 30-you’d fall on the other side to 40.
_________________
Mihcelle AZ

They just don’t get it — that raising the bar up so high that they’re standing there looking at it doesn’t teach ‘em squat. Granted that there is a genuine danger in assuming our students have limitations and we need to make sure we don’t grab the pendulum and swing it crashing back so that studnets are mired in moribund monotony, but the band-aid approach only works for the teachers and passes on the problem to the next level, and the person stuck with illiteracy is the student (and the rest of the community/society).

They don’t get the whole idea that you can either cover everything and get nothing or cover a few things and get them well. For some reason this concept escapes the powers that be entirely.

—des

Hi, girls,

Here I am thinking about math again when you probably know that I love teaching reading the most! But I am probably going to have to teach some math soon.

We have the same dumb situation that kids are having to stay as much as possible in the regular class due to the state tests. Of course, we all know remediation can’t happen in that situation. But I have a couple of kids that I am about to make the case for being pulled out for total language arts and math. The gaps are just too wide to keep pretending.

So I may have a couple of kids for math soon. Now I am back to my “what to use?” dilemma.

Jenn, are you the one who has answered my questions on the MUS yahoo group? If so, I appreciated it.

My situation is that the kids are language delayed. They need basic concepts as visual as possible. All the LD resource teachers have Saxon, so I have free access to the worksheets. All I’d have to buy are the homeschool manuals from ebay.

My own child had Saxon in 1-2 and did very well with it even though she has a language based LD. They changed to some textbook this year that I hate. So I know Saxon is better for LD kids than the major textbook publishers.

What I don’t know is whether MUS teaches as much or more than Saxon. Is it better or not as good? I think it is hard to tell.

Also, what if I have two kids at the same time needing different levels?

If MUS is best, I will have to buy it myself. So it has to be much better for me to spend all that money when I’d only have to buy manuals for Saxon.

So if y’all can give me any more input, I’d appreciate it!

Janis

I’m interested in trying Math U See. Does one need special training in order to use the program? MOST OF ALL can the students work independently? I can’t be doing a math lesson and a reading lesson at the same time. Often, I will have math students in when I’m working with a reading group at the horseshoe table. :roll:

Thanks,
Caron

quote=”MichelleAZ”]I think you must mean me. I am seeing lots of lightbulbs in math. The kids like the books. They like the videos. They like the routine. The kids are scoring well on the tests so it seems as though they are progressing quite nicely. The books don’t look babyish so they are not embarrassed to take the books back to their class and work in front of their classmates in the general ed classoom. My student teacher has taken over and it was an easy subject for her with the books/teacher manual. Lesson planning is fairly easy. We shall see how they do on the state tests in May. I feel the students are getting a solid foundation. We may not get to every single state standard but what we do cover is thorough. In my opinion it is better for students to get mastery on skills and have a good understanding vs. covering lots skills that are soon forgotten. I used to try to hit it all but I’m having better success with hitting less but getting to mastery where the kids can usually apply the skill in a story problem which is closer to real life. Yeah!

Some kids need the extra practice pages, others don’t. It works well that everything is right there. We cut back on certain students and move them to their “Individual skill” that is something where they work at their own pace. Those that need additional practice have all they need right in the new math books. We have group time and individual time as well as math facts time.

I love this much better than the Connecting Math or pulling lessons from here and there.

Michelle AZ[/quote]

I did not have any training and seem to be getting good results. The videos/DVDs are helpful.

I think you could do this with other subjects going on if you had to. My students are doing about one lesson per week. Those that finish early move on to their individual skills. There is a whole group instruction but it doesn’t take that long and there is a lot of practice where the kids just need a little help here or there. Of course every kid is different. I have one girl at her own level but luckily she has an aide to keep her on task among other things. It wouldn’t be ideal to have multiple subjects but if you are an experienced teacher I think you could juggle it if you have students who have independent work in reading and if it is not all direct instruction in the other subjects like Read Naturally.

Caron, I think it would be hard to manage if you have kids on different math levels at the same time. Not to mention if you have reading and math kids there at the same time. Of course, any math program would be impossible to teach appropriately under those conditions. I’m at the point I won’t teach in those conditions because I know it is impossible.

Each new topic or lesson is introduced on DVD/video. The DVD is intended to show the teacher how to present the lesson. But most homeschoolers do let the children watch it with them. I think that is a super way to do it as it saves the teacher time! Then there are practice lessons that can last several days before the test and then the child moves on to the next lesson. But this is not just a straight workbook where you plug kids in and they just go along self-teaching. They have to be taught (which is probably why they are in the resource room).

Janis