Robin, Anitya--IQ score mistake? (long)

Asking Robin and Anitya for their good opinions is the right place to go to. If though you wouldn’t mind someone else’s input I’d always ask -based on what your son is now receiving, what would you like to see continued? What is it you feel he needs and benefits from? Those are the things I’d consider asking for regardless of any test scores.

As to his test scores, his new “scatter pattern” doesn’t strike me as of great new signficance. That his IQ scores have risen and achievement scores have dropped would mean to me that despite his intellectual or cognitive profile, he is not “holding his own” against established norms of learning.

Robin and Anitya though are the best people to ask as to how great the discrepancy needs to be between his IQ scores and his achievement scores for your requests to well-received by your district.

Good luck.

Marie- I am not nearly so fluent with scoring the WISC as I am with the WJR and the WJIII but let’s see what we can sort out. Were I you though, I might be smilingly requesting a meeting with the psych to explain “how do you figure these out anyway- this seems a little odd to me”. I will ask my friend the psyche about how to figure those if no one jumps in to tell you.

The split between his VIQ and his PIQ is 16 points which is equal to just over one standard deviation. So… that is worth paying attention to because it means that verbally oriented demonstrations of learning are not a strength. However, his verbal IQ average is solidly average so he isn’t at any great disadvantage when you compare him to the rest of his age peers. The sixteen points by the way is exactly what the split was three years ago- so he is the same child essentially- but has had some significant growth. Perhaps attributable to the therapies- I don’t know. It might equally be age and developmental. You don’t say how old he is but kids do change a lot over time- and there are greater changes in these scores the younger you begin giving the test. But keep it in perspective. He has the cognitive tools- the mental hardware if you will- and has had them all along- to be a fairly successful student.

Some of what looks a drop in achievement is probably what my friend the psych calls a statistical artifact of the different tests, which is gobbledygook for being careful about literal interpretation of scores from one test to another. Some of it might be that he just hasn’t moved ahead a great deal. I suspect that if you looked at the grade levels associated with those standard scores, you would find that they are pretty close. I rather doubt he has lost skills, but he may not have gained new ones.

Now- I am confused about why you are at the lawyer stage with a child who I would have rather delightedly said was not in need of services three years ago. He does qualify in written expression now I think- I don’t have my tables with me- but if he was unmotivated written expression is a fairly easy test to blow off. I am not saying he did- but he could. That drop would be ringing my bell a little more than anything else. I would likely retest with the TOWL- at least the Spontaneous portion.

Are you the family that we had the interesting thread going about eligbility some months back and I was amazed because IQ has never been used alone for eligibility as far as I knew? How is that for a semantically garbled sentence?

Robin

Marie, I agree with Robin’s comments.

Do not try to score the WISC on your own. It does not score that way, you need the computer software or access to the many charts and tables. I have seen F.S. IQ when scores looked like VS 90 PS 100 come out at FS scores like 93 or 97. It is not simple mathematical averaging, though I am not a psych so I cannot tell you what it is.

Now, the WJ,r (we have a new one called WJ III) always yielded higher standard scores than the WIAT. You cannot compare scores on two different tests to determine growth and regression. You must use the same test. I am not surprised that his scores were higher on the WJ than the WIAT, we always got this result (we give both tests for eligibility).

The low test scores at the present time seem to relate to understanding language. Written language skills will not be good if language comprehension is weak.

Do you have a diagnosis of ADHD? These patterns can sometimes be related to the ability to attend to language and details. This whole area might be worth looking into more.

Sorry to jump in but I have a question on the woodcock johnson test my son was given.How do you understand scores from standard and percentile scores.My son did qualify for services and was determined to have a Specfic Learning Disability.It states on the basisof medical data,record review,teacher input,parent comments,stutdent interview and observation,and norm-reference test data.He demonstrated two stantdard devitions od discrepency between intelligence and achievement.I was only given his scores on paper and the school psy read over them in our meeting (lasted 35 mins) teachers needed to get back to class.My son is 9 and in 2 nd grade his main problems are reading (word recoginion) and spelling and has many reversals even in cursive writing.

Anitya, Robin and Sara,

Thanks for the scoring information, Anitya. I was concerned that PIQ was overstated for son, who is ten and a half and in fifth grade. Also, I suspected that the WJR and WIAT instruments were not directly comparable and it was helpful to learn you get higher scores on the WJR. (On that test taken three years ago, he pretty much scored at or above grade level on every subtest.) As to ADHD—interesting point. Every year for four years he scored at 1%ile on the auditory processing subtest of the CELF-R. Suddenly, a year ago, after two months on adderall, he scored 50%ile and maintained it on the latest round of testing. Also, he never scored above 6%ile on Peabody picture test until last summer (after the increase in auditory processing) when he scored at 40%ile and now at most recent round scored 99%ile. So, my guess is his problem was combination of CAPD (documented by private testing three years ago) and ADD.

I think he’s playing a lot of catchup after years of not attending and CAPD (remediated at least in part by FFW.) Recent LMB testing showed a couple of areas of great weakness: Detroit Tests of Learning Aptitude Verbal Absurdities—mental age:5, Test of Problem Solving-R: <55 (1%ile), Gray Oral Reading Test—Recall stable up to passage: 0. He is doing LMB’s V/V as I pretty much have exhausted language therapy possibilities as sessions are hard to get here due to high demand.

Robin, about the lawyer—son had sudden problems 3 years ago (which turned out to be Tourettes). On the long path to getting a diagnosis, we got a private neuropsychological evaluation. The clinic recommended a special ed school, or at least very intensive language therapy. I live in DC and at that time, there was no way to get services without suing. The cases were pretty easy to win as the district never responded within the mandated deadlines and the lawyers could use the private testing to get services or private tuition paid for.

Right after we started things with the lawyer, the district tried to institute some changes. We heard nothing for 2 and a half years, but continued to submit private therapy bills to the lawyer. Then suddenly we got a check covering a lot of it. And right after that, the school district began a full and insistent campaign to get tests, interviews, etc done, after years of silence. Personally, I was just happy to get the check, but they won’t leave it at that and now for the first time, they are demanding an IEP meeting. (One was scheduled for two weeks ago but cancelled because they gave less than 24 hours notice to his parochial school that someone from there should attend. It hasn’t been rescheduled.)

As messy as the administrative end of things are, actually spec ed services in the schools are worse. They have moved to less than zero to just above nil over the last three years. Almost all kids who get services have parents who have sued to get spec ed tuition paid for. We are about the lawyer’s only clients who just want therapy, not tuition for a private school. (BTW, DC has the lowest test scores in the country.) Getting an IEP for accommodations, rather than remediation, is a little beside the point since the parochial school is pretty cooperative about that sort of thing. (An exception may be untimed achievement tests—he doesn’t tend to complete them due to ticcing. I have been reluctant to ask for untimed as I am hoping we could get the problem under control. I don’t think the school would do untimed unless they had something formal.) So, Sara, to wind up a long story, if they are insisting on an IEP, and I have a wish list, it would be that the district pay for private language therapy like LMB’s V/V.

I have not followed the whole story here, but an IEP is a good thing to have in place for at least several years before he gets to the end of high school. It will make getting accommodations on SAT testing easier, as well as smooth the way in working with the disabilities coordinator at any college he may attend later. Focus on formalizing in writing documentation of his disabilites/diagnoses and the accommodations and services you think he needs now and in the future. Good luck.

I’m going to jump in on your jumping in to mention that lots of letter reversals at age 9 are a red flag for developmental vision delays. It would be a very good idea to take your son to a developmental optometrist for an evaluation. Regular optometrists and opthalmologists are not trained in this area, but you can find certified developmental optometrists in your area at http://www.covd.org.

My daughter had severe developmental vision delays at 8-1/2yo, and this went hand-in-hand with reading difficulties, reversals, and spelling problems. Thanks to vision therapy, PACE (http://www.learninginfoc.om), and Phono-Graphix (http://www.readamerica.net), she’s a fluent reader now, and the spelling is coming along.

Often part or all of a developmental vision exam is covered by medical insurance.

I can’t give you a good answer about test scores, but there is an excellent article in the “LD in Depth” section of this website under “assessments” that explains test scores thoroughly, so parents can understand what they mean.

Mary

Standard scores look like 100, 82, 93. 108…..the average is 100. Most standard deviations are 15 points. So, you generally need to have 1.5 standard deviations between IQ and achievement to get services as LD. Percentile ranks are interesting, but are not used in determining elibibility, nor do I use them to measure progress. A standard score is a standard measure, the there is the “exact same” difference between one number and the next (like inches or centimeters or miles………..). Percentiles compare you child to other children in the standardiation group, so the difference between them is NOT standard. The actually difference between a percentile rank of 50 and 51 may be almost infantesimal interms of actual performance, the difference between the percentile ranks of 20 and 21 could be different.

I always prefer standard scores, we compare “apples to apples” when they are used.

While I am not out to get children drugged in mass, I have read posts from other parents and the occasional study that show higher achievement and even higher IQ tests for children with ADHD and related disorders when they take meds. I would like to see more research on this phenomena, for when we see such dramatic improvements, why would we want to let a child struggle.

I teach a little boy in first grade. His verbal IQ on the WISC is 50! His performance IQ is 100! Yes, he has a language problem, but he is EXCESSIVELY impulsive and inattentive to all verbal situations. He does not have a 30 second attention span. His good mother is now having him evaluated by Kaiser, thoroughly! I suspect that he is ADHD (supposedly they ruled out CAPD at Kaiser last summer). I wonder if his verbal IQ might improve 50% if he were to be placed on effective meds? A language problem that severe makes school so darn hard!

Thanks for sharing with us.

I know many are extremely reluctant to try meds and there are some who are zealously against. I didn’t really have it in mind to try them, but we reached a point in his fall semester of fourth grade where homework became such a problem he began saying the only solution to the homework was to kill himself. Whatever your viewpoint on meds, they look like a pretty good alternative to that. The 1%ile to 50%ile increase in auditory processing from one year to the next came as a shock. It was the pediatrician who suggested that this could have come about as a result of the adderall. I thought the score was possibly a mistake—we’ve worked really hard on language therapy and there have been incremental improvements but nothing so dramatic. Happily, it was not, and then to have the scores on the Peabody Picture zoom subsequently from close to nil to 99%ile was a real shot in the arm. Thinking back to first grade, I really wish now that someone had suggested a short trial of adderall to see if it could help. He would have struggled so much less and maybe wouldn’t have had to do all this therapy that he’s grown pretty tired of to catch up. I’m sure many kids are dxed ADD when they really just have CAPD, but from my experience it would be a mistake to think CAPD rules out ADD. I hope the child you’re teaching can have similar success but, I hope, at an earlier age so he’ll have less to miss out on.

Standard scores are a statistical construction designed to make tests equal (for most purposes IQ and achievement) when you report the results. Scores from 90-110 are considered average range, 80-89 are low average, and below 80 is generally considered low. On the upper end, 111-120 are high averge and above 120 is considered superior.

Percentile rank is a way of clustering individuals in with the norming sample from the test for comparison purposes. AND it is where the standard deviation term comes from So… 35- 65 percentile is generally average range etc. One standard deviation USUALLY and I use that word guardedly because it depends on who you talk to and whether they had to use regression and a whole lot of other stuff- USUALLY one standard deviation is equal to fifteen points. Some tests have different standard deviation ranges but the Woodcock is fifteen points. That is important because the standard in most states for establishing the presence of a learning disability is 1.5 standard deviations from the cognitive capacity in a basic skill area (as defined by state regs). Sounds as if you child met that gate. Does this help?

Wow… I guess that answers my question. What a story.God bless you.

I would be interested in a private sort of email conversation about Tourette’s sometime if you wouldn’t mind?

Robin

Robin, I’ve sent you an email to your address. Marie

Thank you Robin ythis helped explain his scores to me . He scored eiether in the superior range or the low average to low range nothng in the middle.Our area says they have to be 2 standard deviations.Also thet have to have a severe discrepancy between acheivement and ability in theses areas oral expession ,listening comprehension, written expression, basic reading skills, reading comprehension, mathmatics calculation, and mathmatics reasoning.Well my son it says has met theses discrepancies in written expression, basic reading skills, reading comprehension, mathmatics calculation. My son has been also dx with ADHD also and we are trying medicine trials and are on our 4 one he could not take stimulants he had too many adverse reactions.The papers given to me also say my son should be able to master complex skills normally expected of children in 7 th to 8th grade at this point. However he will likely need to bend his will to complete age appropiated tasks and be frustrated in his rate of reading and writing skill development.

I was a teacher years ago when ADHD was not a term yet (late ‘70’s) and very few children who were hyperactive were on meds. I returned to teaching in the early 90’s totally against medication, like many people who have not worked with children. You have lots of ideas and beliefs when YOU are not in the classroom teaching. It is very easy to blame teachers and think they all want the easy way out when they ask parents to get an ADHD eval. I believed all of those things, with all my heart. I also believed good teaching would always prevail for ADHD children.

Today I believe that when we suggest ADHD eval. we only do so when we believe with all of our hearts that the child’s learning is significantly impacted by his/her difficulties and that he or she may be suffering socially and in self-esteem due to uncontrolled impulses. I have seen youngsters dramatically helped with meds. I have never seen anyone react adversely, but we have fewer than 10 kids on meds in our school of about 775 students.

If my child had such difficulties, I like to think I would trial some natural alternatives before I tried meds. There is a wealth of literature out there and many people have reported positive results. Sometimes the ADHD board has posts from people who use such alternatives. However, I would use meds if my child needed them to learn to to function socially.

Nonmedicated ADHD youngsters become at greater risk for substance abuse as they grow older than do those who have received help that includes things like counseling, meds and behavior modification. I also know people who are adults who took meds for years who are functional and healthy adults.

Students with LD’s and especially those with ADD have to bend their will just to get through the school day, much less tackle grade level work on a consistent basis. It isn’t that they don’t want to learn- though this can develop- what they have going on is a combination of the processing glitches from the LD plus an accumulation of missed information from class to class and day to day and year to year. Detail oriented learning- like basic writing skills- suffer in particular. I hope the meds help- when they do it is a wonderful thing to see and I guess a wonderful thing to feel! The groan in the subject line wasn’t for you by the way, it was for the person with the ill considered choice of words. Bend his will indeed…:)

Robin

This is what my sons teacher said he tries all day long and pushes himself to do more than she expects out of him.he takes forever to write so she modifies his work for him in the amount he has to write and he does some work orally to his LD tutor he now has and before he did it with her.She did state in he paper work he does try hard and does not give up keeps going.He has not had any behavior problems in school this year but did the past 2 years his teacher this year sees him getting fustrated usally before he goes off and stops it before it happens.She has been a God send for my son this year she is a great teacher and really cares for how her students do.My son really likes her and this was a first for him he had names for all his other teachers and still call them that at home his 2 younger sisters have had theses 2 teachers since he has and they have them this year.I just hope he gets another great teacher next year there is 6 teachers for each grade at our school and all the students get split up different each year.

and bless her for being so professional and understanding. I hope you get a good one next year too!

Robin