update on lets stump the educator

My son reads better if he is interested in the book. They gave him this low level book about of all things GIRLS, well as you can imagine, his little third grade attention went right out the window and it seemed he was having trouble reading the book.

At the same time he got a 5th grade level book out of the library he read it with good comprehension despite some errors in reading the text. The regular ed teacher acknowledged this and I think if it was up to her she would have moved him up a reading level. No matter what I did, the sped teacher would not let him move up in reading groups. He was in an inclusive class and the sped teacher was rather rigid.

Since then, I had him moved to a regular class. He was behind the rest of the class in reading the assigned Horrible Harry book. He caught up quick and the teacher thought his comprehension was just great. Well surely a third grade boy will comprehend horrible harry before he will comprehend a book about a little girl who wants to be in her teachers wedding.
The latest book is really hard. It is about an indian girl. It has alot of inference and many words he never heard before like a hogan and a mesa. He is doing fine. I have found that he tunes out when he is not challenged.

On getting the teacher to change reading groups, I don’t know what to tell you. I couldn’t do this so had to change teachers. Just to be clear there were a few other reasons he needed to change classes.

He is now in a regular class without accomodations and holding his own.

Hi Scriabin,

I’m with Linda on this one. He’s probably bored stiff and using all his old, well-learned, defense mechanisms when he’s back in the old environment.

I’ve got an “off-the-wall” theory on kids who actually had (or have) problems with their binocular vision skills, by the way. I call it “off-the-wall” because I doubt if you’ll find it anywhere else, but I think I might be right anyway.

Basically, I think that the reason so many poor readers have these great spatial analysis skills (“He can’t read, but he can take anything apart and put it back together!”) is that they learned them as a coping mechanism to deal with their lack of binocular vision. Try the following and see if you can see where I’m coming from on this:

Patch one of your eyes and start studying objects around you. Then start trying to figure out how far away they are (a difficult task without stereoscopic vision…two eyes, that is.) Now, after doing that for a bit, pay particular attention to your eye movement while you are estimating distance or location of the object. I think that you’ll notice that you are scanning from side to side, figuring out how various lines of other objects are running relative to the object you’re assessing. Pretty soon you should realize that you are dealing in three dimensions, but with one eye only, doing a lot of comparisons of the lines of objects related to one another, i.e., visual spatial analysis…with one eye.

So, if I’m right, (and I actually think there’s a better than even chance I am, but who knows) there’s an upside to starting life with a binocular vision problem (if you get it fixed eventually) in that you learn an important skill in a natural way. Makes me wonder if it wouldn’t be a good idea to patch a young kid’s eye for a day or so every week and let the poor kids who aren’t visually challenged learn the same important skill. Of course, if I’m wrong all you’ll get is a lot of kids walking into tables and doors….*s*

As Linda says, change teachers (or schools) for your son….Rod

interesting comment on spatial ability. One reading specialist I took him to had him doing work tracing geometric figures. All went well until she gave him something that to me looked like a picture of a 3d cube composed of one square and two diamonds. When she pointed to a diamond within the “cube” he said he saw a square because he was seeing it in three dimensions. She thought it was a sign of a problem at which point I said that I saw the figure as 3d also and I thought he just did not understand that she wanted him to visualize each part of the cube as a separate 2d object. She was quite taken aback and insisted that she did not see it as 3d and we were not supposed to. I have binocular vision problems too and did not see in real 3d until college when I got my first pair of glasses.
Unfortunately, due to financial circumstances, putting my son in private school is not an option. This particular teacher, unlike last year’s, does have a good reputation and my son likes him. I can only hope that he is willing to give the kid a chance to prove himself and not go into “I can prove your kid can’t do it” mode. I have not had teachers conference yet. I’m hoping for the best. Another avenue I’m considering it talking to guidance or maybe the school psychologist. Trouble is its such a small school everybody is friends with everyone else so you run into a problem with one defending the others position in a way you might not see with a large district where the tester does not eat lunch every day with the teacher. Rod wrote:
>
> Hi Scriabin,
>
> I’m with Linda on this one. He’s probably bored stiff and
> using all his old, well-learned, defense mechanisms when he’s
> back in the old environment.
>
> I’ve got an “off-the-wall” theory on kids who actually had
> (or have) problems with their binocular vision skills, by the
> way. I call it “off-the-wall” because I doubt if you’ll find
> it anywhere else, but I think I might be right anyway.
>
> Basically, I think that the reason so many poor readers
> have these great spatial analysis skills (“He can’t read, but
> he can take anything apart and put it back together!”) is
> that they learned them as a coping mechanism to deal with
> their lack of binocular vision. Try the following and see if
> you can see where I’m coming from on this:
>
> Patch one of your eyes and start studying objects around
> you. Then start trying to figure out how far away they are (a
> difficult task without stereoscopic vision…two eyes, that
> is.) Now, after doing that for a bit, pay particular
> attention to your eye movement while you are estimating
> distance or location of the object. I think that you’ll
> notice that you are scanning from side to side, figuring out
> how various lines of other objects are running relative to
> the object you’re assessing. Pretty soon you should realize
> that you are dealing in three dimensions, but with one eye
> only, doing a lot of comparisons of the lines of objects
> related to one another, i.e., visual spatial analysis…with
> one eye.
>
> So, if I’m right, (and I actually think there’s a better
> than even chance I am, but who knows) there’s an upside to
> starting life with a binocular vision problem (if you get it
> fixed eventually) in that you learn an important skill in a
> natural way. Makes me wonder if it wouldn’t be a good idea
> to patch a young kid’s eye for a day or so every week and let
> the poor kids who aren’t visually challenged learn the same
> important skill. Of course, if I’m wrong all you’ll get is a
> lot of kids walking into tables and doors….*s*
>
> As Linda says, change teachers (or schools) for your
> son….Rod

most and i say most, i realize not all, but most reading teachers and classroom teachers do not like kids to read books that are “too” hard for them, unless the kid reads perfectly fluent, they assume reading a hard book will frustrate the kid. they restrict kids to books with certain color circles on the covers and tell them they can pick from this pile only,

my experience has been just like yours sciarbin, i prefer to see kids motivated and having fun reading whatever book they choose, writing a note to the teacher will most likely do no good, she will see his less than fluent reading as a sign of a weak reader and condemn him to the easy books.

too bad, your son sounds like he wants to read and for me as a tutor that is the biggest plus i see in my students, the fact that your son wants to read is a very very good sign,

keep it up at home and help him understand that his teacher wants to see fluent reading and does not understand that his less than fluent reading is not frustrating him, quite the contrary, he probably does not even notice it,

good for your son, keep him reading, i have no idea what his level is, nor his age, but if he is 10 or 11, get the book Holes and buddy read it with him

i would rate it as the best book i have ever read, including the Potter series and Spinelli books, Holes is just one perfect little book and very good for boys,

i have raised two grown boys, and i know first hand, finding books for boys 11-13 is not easy, the Redwall series was big when my oldest was 11
my now 18 yo, said Huckleberry Finn was the best book he ever read, he read it on his own in high school as it is now a banned book,

but many books kids read in grade school are for girls, but the boys are made to read them, Tuck Everlasting is big now, Bridge to Teribethia (sp),good books but seem not as much fun for boys as they are for girls,

if he is in 5th grade and studying American History , get Jump Ship to Freedom, great book about slavery but this one is different, it is about kids and the effects of slavery, very good and very exciting and very cool,

get the Zack series for just plain fun and easy reading, something he can keep beside his bed and read before bedtime, i always kept a big pile of books beside by kids’ beds, that way there was always something to grab, including Sports Illustrated for kids, Nintendo Power etc, the world almanac„ Guiness book of records and Garfield joke books, not everything has to be a novel

keep your son reading, whatever he chooses, good for him

libby

My daughter loved “Holes”. when she was younger! She didn’t like Bud, not Buddy as much. Tuck Everlasting was another of her favorites at this age. Thanks for the suggestion. Actually he can read difficult material with more speed and fluency believe it or not so maybe a videotape is in order.

My daughter, remediated in reading skills and vision skills, but a reluctant reader was pointed to a great website www.readingadventure.com by a reading specialist. We are able to input reading level and genre types and the site spits back an extensive list of possible books. We took our list and went to the library. She was paid to read a certain minimum amount daily and paid a bonus for finishing a book. This reading scheme was recommended instead of another summer of reading tutors as what she really needed was more reading experience.

I think my daughter equated reading with labor instead of joy. Finding more pleasure in her reading has helped immensely. Her class has a reading incentive program (10 books by Dec. 6th for a sleepover in the library) and she is going for it! I agree absolutely with the post that said almanacs or Garfield-just get’em reading and get’em equating reading with fun.

Scriabin, we too yoyo-ed around in the reading scores. I assume that we have to supplement what happens in school-tutors, vision therapy, summer programs, etc. If the teacher is good in other respects, make your reading program his allowance scheme-pay for reading instead of pay for chores. I do wonder that you have not had a conference by November. I like to touch base with the teacher more often. Really important, do not challenge the teacher but do ask questions about your son. Reading group placement and the titles of class novel sets is not top secret information. Sometimes the book assigned is the one they have a class set of-my daughter’s grade level rotates sets through the classes.
PS I found Rod’s comments on vision very illuminating. And we loved Holes.

If this kiddo learns, this year, to rebel against the limitations teachers put on him and define his learning in his own terms — then that teacher may have done him the biggest favor in his life. Build on this — take it past just reading books and into learning in general.

This topic always gets lively discussion on librarians’ groups — there’s a whole group who steadfastly maintain that bribery robs students of the joy of reading since they are only doing it for the bribe (whether it’s money or Accelerated REader points or the incentive of your choice).
Like anything else, it’s got its place (and, by the way, you can’t rob somebody of joy without their permission…)

I would agree except that my child finds no joy in reading of which to be robbed!. I actually have never bribed him for reading but it strikes me that LD kids at least don’t fit this picture at all.

(BTW, I have bribed him for other things—like doing Fast Forward.)

Beth

How is this different than tracking problems or convergence or focusing? If you have very strong visual-spatial abilities - would you potentially have Binocular vision problems or is it that kids who don’t have strong visual-spatial would have this?

Hi Dea,

All I mean by a binocular vision problem is that a person has trouble coordinating both eyes together. While it may be part of a focusing problem or a tracking problem, I suspect that the problem that contributes most to poor reading is in the area of convergence problems.

That is, the continual demand of making saccade after saccade (moving across a line of print a few letters at a time and refocusing) is too difficult for some kids to accomplish easily. They may be able to do it briefly, or even for a few minutes, but eventually they simply wear down and lose the ability to see the same group of letters simultaneously with both eyes.

This is when the double vision, moving letters, watering eyes, squirming, fatigue, etc., is likely to kick in. It’s called convergence infacility. That is, they don’t have the facility to carry out the continual convergence demands required at near point when reading. One of the reasons the reading research is so down on vision therapy is that the researchers have optometrists check for an ability to converge, but they don’t follow up further by checking for the facility to maintain the continual convergence demands required by reading. This is, to my mind, why we see so many poor readers do just fine for a few lines when they change pages or for the first few minutes of reading. It gives them a brief interlude to relax and start again. Then the fatigue sets in again. These kids will likely never like to read, because reading is physically stressful to them…..unless their visual skills finally develop, or they finally shut down the input from one eye.

Everything I said about relating a deficiency in this area to a visual spatial strength was absolute, rampant speculation (even though I believe there might be something to it) so taking it one step further and trying to conclude anything about one skill based upon the degree of the other is getting way ahead of things.

Having said that, what I was trying to explain is that the normal process of compensating for the lack on one skill (poor binocular vision as in convergence infacility) might result in excellent development of another skill (visual-spatial analysis.) Dyslexics often write that they look at words from all angles, turning them around, looking at them from behind, etc., as if they were moving around the word itself. Ron Davis in his book, Gift of Dyslexia, even talks about the need to establish a central point of reference (I believe he called it a “mind’s eye”) so that a dyslexic would know from where he should be looking at something when reading.

Again, I’m just speculating that some dyslexics have a naturally over-developed ability to look at the world from different points of view due to an inability to see it as the rest of us do, in stereo vision. A person with good binocular vision skills generally has good depth perception, whereas someone with a deficit in that area will have trouble reading and may also have poor or non-existent depth perception. It’s the lack of depth perception that would lead to the development of the compensatory strength in visual spatial analysis.

Take this all with a grain (or block) of salt…..Rod

Hey Rod,

I read your first message, and thought about responding - then I read your second one. I realize not everyone is the same (understatement), but I have NO depth perception (didn’t discover this until I was 35 years old). I am an architect. However, I probably also have a classic case of NLD (my young son has been diagnosed with it - per my research). I was an extremely good early reader - with almost no instruction - and to this day will devour books - one or two a day - depending on what else is going on. I think I read your theory correctly, and unfortunately, I am an example of something that doesn’t fit your theory :-) and an example of something that does fit your theory.

Lil

Lil wrote:
>
> Hey Rod,
>
). I am an architect.
> However, I probably also have a classic case of NLD (my young
> son has been diagnosed with it - per my research). I was an
> extremely good early reader - with almost no instruction -
> and to this day will devour books - one or two a day -
> depending on what else is going on. I think I read your
> theory correctly, and unfortunately, I am an example of
> something that doesn’t fit your theory :-) and an example of
> something that does fit your theory.
I was also a very good reader although i never liked to read a lot. My problem did not really become bothersome until high school when it reached the point where I could no longer control the weak eye. I might get 10 pages, maybe only 2 pages in to a book when I had to deal with 2 books merging and separating in front of me. I had a chemistry teacher who liked to walk back and forth along the blackboard and demanded our undivided eye contact. Again, within a few min there were 2 teachers merging and separating. That is different than seeing without true 3d close up because the brain is suppressing the image from one eye because the other eye’s image is blurry. It’s very hard to read two moving targets. When you loose control, you either close one eye or you stop reading.

Rod,

I believe this is my son’s problem. He is a good reader for his age but he does tire easily. He complains of headaches and moving print. When he finds a book he really wants to read like the Goosebumps series that he is currently working on he will read for an extended period without complaint. To be clear, the majority of the time he does not like to read.

He has binocular vision picked up in a screening test. The optomotrist told me that his problem with saccadic eye movement and pursuit eye movement are probably related to the binocular vision. To make this even more complex he has sensory integration issues with real problems in bilateral integration. My question is: Does a problem with bilateral motor integration lead to binocular vision? It seems reasonable that someone who has a problem coordinating both sides of his body would also have problems coordinating both eyes.

Have you seen senory integration issues in these children with binocular vision?

Do you have any ideas for exercises that would help? We currently are doing the circle e described by someone else here. It involves tracking nonsense text and circling the ‘e’s.(He finds this particular exercise very difficult which I am guessing means he really needs to do it.) We also do a block game that is supposed to help with saccadic eye movements that I bought from www.balametrics.com.

He is going to be evaluated by a developmental optomotrist in January (this will be the third DO that has seen him.) I would like to do as much as I can on my own before we go for that evaluation.

Sorry for all the questions. You are a whiz on this subject!

Hi Lil,

It’s not a foregone conclusion that a lack of binocularity would result in poor reading. In fact, if you were using only one eye exclusively (either by the brain’s suppression of the input of the other eye, or by physically obstructing it with your nose, your hand, etc.) then you would probably easily learn to read, given normal intelligence. I hope this makes sense?…Rod

Hi Linda,

First, to remove some confusion, let me clarify that “binocular vision” is the desired state, not the problem. (bi/two, ocular/eye, in other words two-eyes working.) A complete absence of binocularity is monocular vision…only one eye in the game.

The “problem” is “poor” binocular vision. In other words, both eyes are working, but they are not working on the same part of the page simultaneously. See Scriabin’s post right above here for a cogent discussion of what one goes through. Unfortunately, a kid rarely realizes what is happening, thinking his vision is just like everyone else’s, and even if asked, is usually incapable of describing what’s going on. Although, after the problem is corrected, some can then describe what they were experiencing.

By the way, just so you understand, I’m a layman here. I don’t do vision therapy or optometry. But I see the results of it being done well nearly every week because I get referals from vision therapists. The behavioral optometrist is your best bet, given your son’s complaints, but even then, please ask for the names of some satisfied parents before you spend a bunch of money.

By the way, I’m betting that your son has developed a way of dealing with his vision problem while he tackles his Goosebumps books….probably covering one eye. You might ask him and see what he says…..I’m curious….Rod

P.S. As to the sensory integration issues, yes. Binocularity is a developmental process, just as walking and talking are, or at least that’s my understanding of it. To the extent that certain gross motor developments precede fine motor development, it’s likely that the two might sometimes go together. Similarly, kids with poor fine-motor development in the visual area are also prone to have poor fine-motor development in areas of speech and handwriting. They don’t necessarily go together, but in many cases they seem to. In particular, handwriting depends on good fine-motor development of fingertip controls which in turn depends upon “seeing” what’s going on, so poor binocularity can probably cause poor writing. In fact, I’ve seen handwriting improve significantly following vision therapy, though not in every case. (The same “layman” caution applies here incidentally.)

Rod - I think your ‘hunches’ are many times better than alot of people’s ‘research’.

What is your theory on kids being able to grow out of or ‘fix’ themselves with lots of reading practice? esp. if they only have moderate problems?

I think my dd does have some kind of tracking issue, but I don’t think it’s severe. I just can’t face more therapy right now! I do need to at least get a diagnosis to find out if there is a problem to address.

Hi Dea,

Thanks……I really don’t have any “theory” on kids growing out of reading problems though.

For a kid to outgrow a modest problem I would want to know two things are happening:

1) They actually want, and like, to read. If they don’t, they won’t and if they won’t, they’ll fall farther and farther behind…..and,

2) They can segment the sounds in words. I agree with libby’s recent comment that segmenting ability is essential to understanding the code that is English. That’s because it’s such a messy code that few teachers teach it sufficiently well for kids to learn it in school. Instead they have to assimilate it from their day-to-day reading, i.e., learn it on their own. The ability to segment out the individual sounds in words they hear is essential to that process, in my opinion (and in the opinion of a heck of a lot of researchers too, for that matter.)

If both of the above conditions are met, I would say that the chances of a child becoming a decent reader in time are pretty good, even if they have some visual or auditory issues to work through first. If their visual issue is too severe, they simply will not voluntarily read.

Good luck….Rod

Hum - as far as liking to read - it depends on the books. I will find her reading on her own every once in awhile and she tells me she likes to read once she gets going. Reading is just not 100% natural or automatic yet - it’s like she has to concentrate real hard. I also think she can segment the sounds pretty good.

My personal theory is that because she has a high visual-spatial ability(of which was probably due to a binocular problem like you indicate), she tends to see words like pictures or as a whole. It’s not her nature to decode left to right - she has had to be ‘trained’ to do this. I think that unless her other ‘senses’ catch up to her visual-spatial ability (and they probably never will) - it will always be her 1st sense to read words the way she does.

A part of me thinks the mistakes she makes are now more due to habit -but I’m not 100% sure. I need to get her checked out on this. Thanks for all your posts.

Hi Dea,

Yes, you could be dealing with an unreformed sight-word reader. With a vision problem, kids will fall back on sight-word instruction as something that works relatively well for them in the lower grades (1st and maybe 2nd grade.)

Then, even after vision is in place and solid phonics instruction has been digested, the old strategy of “guessing” may still remain dominant. This can be a bear to correct, and, in my opinion, involves aggressively demonstrating the many failures of the “old” strategy.

By that I mean, you have to point out mistakes and demonstrate how they could avoid similar mistakes by decoding the words instead of guessing them.

Also, until a child actually makes the switch, they will not really tend to enjoy reading because a sight-word strategy simply won’t enable them to read higher level books as they mature.

I have found that a child who doesn’t switch strategies can sometimes be detected by their poor performance on learning “the code,” that is, the sounds associated with various letters and digraphs. Once they make a conscious decision to switch, their code knowledge begins to shoot up, because they are actually using the information that they were exposed to in phonics instruction……Rod