visual processing problem?

Has he had any evaluations? I would suggest right off, an OT evaluation. My daughter has dysgraphia. “The farmer loves pigs” would be “T hefar merl ov esp igs”. No spacing.

She has Visual processing problems; however, she had trouble reading as well (dyslexia).

He may have some fine motor issues or spatial issues. Also, is he on meds for his ADHD? My daughter’s handwriting has improved unbelieveably with a combo of OT (public school and private), but if she forgets her ADD meds, it’s worse. Don’t know why.

I would request the OT evaluation at the very least. If he qualifies, I would request an AT evaluation as well. Can he copy from the board?

Any other educational problems?

What is an AT evaluation?

He is not taking meds, currently we are treating naturally. He has the same troubles when copieing from the board. There are no other “educational” issues, he is an honor roll student, with very little effort on his part. However, this writing issue effects all areas of learning.

I have always known he had fine motor issues. We have tried to address these by practice, model building, art classes, hand exercises, etc. All with little to no improvement. He does draw a little better, now it looks like a kindergarteners, but that has not transferred to the writing as I had hoped it would.

The OT looked at him yesterday, will interview him today, so far she is not recommending anything we have not already tried, except for using graph paper. I have read that this is very helpful but that once the child begins to use “regular” paper again the problem returns. I also wonder is he will feel stigmatized because he has to use a special paper.

I am thanful for your input as LD is an are that is totally new to me. Thus far we have only focused on controlling his hyperactivity,etc. So any suggestions or advise you might have or any thing you would like to say would be greatly appreciated.

Acorn

AT means “assistive technology,” i.e. use of a computer or alphasmart for writing. FYI, many children with ADHD have handwriting difficulties. Often they stem from problems with working memory. Has your child been evaluated for LD?

Andrea

I will look into the AT evaluation. That would be great, his teacher in 1st grade let him use the class computer, and he dictated and I typed for him at home. It helped him alot. But after that he has not been allowed to use the computer or have me write or type for him…he must do it him self I have been told. At this new school though, they have been very helpful.

He has never been evaluated for any LDs, he easily make honor roll (with a B in math) every marking period, with very little effort. The hardships he has (as far as school goes) all stem from his writing difficulties, he will often have to rewrite home work 3 times before it is even some what readable. (and I am not picky at all) And his at school papers look just terrible.

I am aware that writing troubles do go along with ADHD and so I have never given it much thought. But this visual processing is a new angle I have never heard of before (disgraphia is often mention in connection with ADHD, people also often mention about how bad a childs writing becomes just before sever ADHD episodes, etc). I am wondering if this is another small piece in the puzzle to improvement.

I spoke with a Opicital Therapist today, she said some symptoms sound like it and others do not. Would have to test to be sure. Test is $605 OUCH! but we can start with a 1 hour test $265 STILL OUCH. If he passes do not need to test further, if he fails would need to finish testing. OUCH AGAIN! LOL Just so many medical expences lately, and insurance does not cover even 1/2 of them. Guess I am going to have to make a priority list, of what gets treated first.

I would be hard pressed to suggest VPD (visual processing delay/disorder) if he is not have any trouble with reading. Is the handwriting any WORSE when copying from the board. Does he read in dim light and/or cover one eye, or have headaches? These are some signs of VPD.

He could, of course, be extremely bright and able to cover his LDs.

I would tend to believe it is a fine motor problem, HOWEVER, I am just a mom. My daughter received OT and her handwriting is now beautiful, but slow and board copying is extremely hard (significant VPD).

I would suggest the AT evaluation; however, without qualifying for OT you may be hard pressed to get any real help.

One math tip:

If the child has trouble with math and I’m not sure he does, try this.

I went to Home Depot and purchased a big piece of bathroom paneling that is dry erase material but it looks like tiles. THere are actual grooves that don’t lend itself well to writing. STRESS, only 1 number per tile space.

I use 2 different colors for dry erase. One for the problem, one for the problem. You can even use perm. marker for the symbols and lines.

Have the child only put one number per space. Do long multiplication on these or long divsion. Long Division is so wonderful this way. The kids love the dry erase for some reason.

Next, after he gets this down, go down to graph paper, large size then finally, to lined paper but use it sideways. No numbers are allowed to touch the lines only the lines of the problem can touch the line..

Works like a charm to keep math organized. Haven’t tried it for sentence writing but, maybe they have dry erase boards with smaller tiles for that.

You can get a lot of boards out of one piece. If you tell them you are a teacher, they will cut the board for free.

I’m sure you’ve tried the one finger space between each word. Or, try to take a piece of WIKy Stix in small circles and have him place one dot between each word. Sometimes the darndest thing like this will do the trick. Each kid is different. I also use the WIki Stix in a small circle to cover the numbers not being multiplied in long multiplication when doing it on paper. It sticks.
Michelle

From your descriptions, it is possible that your son is gifted and has a learning disability. I’m not a doctor though, just a mom to a gt/ld/adhd child, and I don’t know much about your child, so I could be really off-base here. Does your son have any trouble with getting his ideas down on paper? I’m not talking about the handwriting but actually the substance of what he is writing. Does it take him a long time to come up with ideas? Does he write the shortest sentences humanly possible? Does he have any difficulty with spelling, punctuation or grammar? Does his written work seem to reflect the level of his knowledge or is he much better when he can express himself orally? Does he fail to complete assignments and complain that school is stupid, boring, etc.? These might be tip-offs to an LD that he is able to compensate for so far by using his native intelligence. Has he had any difficulty with learning his multiplication tables or other math facts? If there are any warning factors like these, you might consider having him thoroughly tested. If money is a concern, that is where I would spend mine, or you can ask the school to do it. His handwriting difficulties would provide ample support for your school district to test him. OT is a nice add-on, but the research does not support it as an effective treatment for LD or ADHD. Vision therapy is also controversial (the medical community views it with skepticism), although many folks here report good results with it. IMHO, the place to start is with an educational evaluation. After you know what is going on there, you can pursue OT or VT evaluations as needed.

Andrea

He does have an above average intelligence. Although he has never been tested, I know, and so do many other adults he speaks with. He is currently reading (loves to read) at a 7th grade level (in 3rd) and loves to do science experiments, etc.

Yes, aside from his creative writing (6 awards this school year) he has a very hard time getting what is in his head to the paper. (I think he struggles at bit with the creative writing as well but is still very good at it and enjoys it). He is struggleing with multiplication at this moment. We are working with hooked on math, it is very slow though, and a constant battle. He does not pay any attention to puntuation, but is naturally a very good speller and naturally good at grammer for the most part, as well. He can always express him self better oraly. Yes he complains that school is boring every day.

Are these signs of an LD? I have generally attributed them to the ADHD.

A concern we would have as far as having an educational evaluatin done is…what will happen if they find someting? Of course we will be better able to help him, but will the school put him in a “special” class. If any thing he needs a more challenging/stimulating class, not a “slower” one.Will he be left in his current class but pulled out at certain times (where it is odvious to the other children). How would this effect the way the other children see him. ETC.
Being ADHD he is very sensative, his feelings are easily hurt, already feels “differenet”, so this are areas we want to tread lightly around.

The school has suggested a 504. Any input on this? Any suggetions on what to ask for, or things I should know going in? I will have to find info about a 504 and “study” up on it.

I am going to talk to them about an AT evaluation for sure, the OT has not suggested anything we have not already tried, and I don’t think the therapies sound too promising from what I have read.

Thanks, and have a great day!

Acorn

OH and if it matters at all he is OVER-ATTENTIVE ADHD.

They COULD be signs of LD, ADHD or both. I do understand your concerns about the stigmatizing affects of LD labels. I had the same concerns when I had my son tested in first grade. He was in a private school and I knew that the chances were they would dump him if he was identified as LD. I was right and they did, but he ended up in a public school program for gifted children with learning disabilities and it was the best thing that ever happened to him.

We really agonized over that LD label, because we knew our son was bright (brilliant, actually — IQ in the 99+ percentile) and we didn’t want people stereotyping him. The thing was, he already had a label and in many ways it was a lot worse. The label his teachers had given him was that of a lazy, sloppy child who could do the work “if he wanted to.” My husband and I had labels as well — we were “bad parents” who needed to crack the whip more often.

My son ended up in a self-contained gt/ld class where he could be challenged and get help with his LD. From your descriptions, I think it is far more likely your son would stay where he is and get pull-out services and accomodations. Those accomodations are going to end up being very important if you want him to have access to gifted coursework. You could very well get some of them via a 504 plan, but, again JMHO, the real question is what might be causing your son’s difficulties. An educational evaluation could tell you where he is strong, where he is weak, and just what is going on with him. You could even have it done privately, not share the results with the school and pursue all remediation through tutors that you pay for.

If you get a chance, you might want to look at the gt/ld information you can find on this website under the LD in Depth tab. The critical thing about dealing with these kids is that they need early, effective interventions for their LD plus a challenging intellectual school environment. If you leave out either thing, they end up as frustrated school-haters.

Just so you know, labels are not necessarily forever. My child spent four years in his gt/ld class and then went on to a private school for gifted children. He is in 6th grade and is a straight A student. He still has his LD, but he gets around it by using a laptop. He still has his ADHD (inattentive), but he takes medication that helps him. I don’t think he would be where he is now if we had not figured out how he learns and what he needs to be successful by having him thoroughly tested. Its hard to know how to make things better if you don’t really know what is going wrong.

Andrea

No, they can’t put him in a “special” class. You can ask for 15 min consult. (Many SD’s best kept secret). He stays in general ed and receives accommodations in his area(s) of weakness. He can also go to resource, if necessary.

I also have a gifted/LDer like Andrea. They can be a piece of work! :-). She attends 1 day a week gifted pullout and uses a laptop in that class. General ed she uses a Dana and or writes herself.

Can’t copy from the board so MS I expect is going to be #*$_#^_$. Sounds like you’re a “pretty on top of things” mom.

I agree with Andrea. We’re not professionals, but experienced moms and I’d go with getting the evaluation. You can’t shoot an enemy you can’t see.

You can also just avoid sped entirely no matter what the testing shows. Sped is voluntary. They can’t place him in sped unless you ok it.

In my district it is easier to get regular ed services if you aren’t under sped. There are some really good regular ed services.

We are opting out of sped next year.

You’re right, I didn’t mean to make it appear he HAD to be classified SE. You CAN skip it entirely. However, if you opt out, you can’t get the accommodations, etc., that help my daughter. I mean she doesn’t have anything huge, but ability to use AT, scribe on FCAT, small group, extended time for testing. Stuff like that. Items not offered to the “general ed” student. She can do basically the same caliber of work if she is given enough time.

The 15 min consult is our best friend. The school is “on the hook” to watch over her, keep her needs met, I provide private remediation. It’s been win-win for us going this route.

When we get to MS they already will know (at the end of 5th grade I am asking for the “articulation” meeting (that’s what they called it at my recent advocacy training meeting) ). Having the MS and elem school meeting at the IEP between all parties to bring out correct support b4 she gets to MS.

For instance, providing her with her combination lock at the end of 5th grade so she can “practice” with it over the Summer. Also, take her to the school on several occasions so she can learn where major areas are so she won’t be lost and “freaking out” the 1st day. I’ll have my list ready b4 the IEP!

I have to admit to being a little nervous about opting out. Sped is just so dysfunctional where I am. They don’t even know what the word accomodation means. ( I swear this is true I sat in a meeting with the school psychologist and director of sped and when I said that word it was like they had never heard it before. They use the word modification instead.)

I think we have moved my son’s deficit areas enough that it becomes moot.

In a way it is good they are so dysfunctional. I might not have worked to get his deficits in line as fast if they provided a supportive environment. As it stands, I feel our feet are to the fire to distance ourselves from this group as fast as we can.

They have cookie cutter solutions that don’t seem to match his deficits.

See, the dysfunctional special ed? I would see that as an opportunity to teach them.

The SD knows I belong to COPAA, STAND and am a very informed parent. They called me to havea pre-IEP meeting so they can make sure we have an understanding of what I want b4 the IEP meeting. (Could be b/c there was a “misunderstanding” at the last one, which led to me taping all future IEP meetings.

They are “coming around”. Problem is? She starts 5th grade next year (her last year at this school). THen I have new teachers and administrative staff to teach. :0). I am going to request that all the letters I have written over the past 3 years be put into her CUM folder so that MS will have a clue what they are up against as far as the parent who writes, and follows up. Maybe it will make things easier, I don’t know.

I just know I will fight for her with every breath in my body. I will spend as much time as necessary to make sure she is accommodated appropriately and her needs are met. I am determined that she will not be a “fall through the cracks child”.

I am also hoping to be educated enough to one day advocate for others - I give advice, help some, but the more I learn the more I realize I don’t know.

Leah,

I don’t know how you do it. Geeez, I can’t sleep the night before the meetings. It takes a toll on me. My husband and I had a fight after one of the meetings and I knew right then and there this just wasn’t going to work. We have a very good relationship and I will be darned if anything that effects that will be tolerated. Andy’s story really convinced me when he described how his fights with the school affected his whole life.

I think because I grew up in a very passive aggressive home and did a really good job of leaving that behind it is just to difficult to deal with the same type of backstabbing, lies, manipulations again.

Really, I almost called the school psych Mom. (Ok, now that was a joke.)

It is fight of flight reaction and I picked flight.

I am still fighting the disability. I can do that.

DH and I discussed and have decided we will also request an Educational evaluation along with the AT evaluation.

I really hope at the very least he is accepted for the AT, he would love it I know and I am sure it will help alot.

The OT is going to interview son next week, I will let you know how it goes.

So now I have tons of reasearch to do. I need to learn about 504s and what I can request. And look into AT and Educational evaluations and everything that follows as well.

Thanks for everything.

Acorn

You can get basically the same on a 504 as an IEP. Go to Reed Martin.com

Maybe it’s because I’m a legal assistant and the documentation comes so easily to me. Paper trails don’t lie and I send letters about everything.

I have another meeting on Tuesday a.m. I’ll spend Monday doing my outline.

I spoke with the conseler today. We have a 504/Geip meeting in 2 weeks. However she said there is no AT at this school and stressed that it is important for son to learn to write.

Is it possible for there to be no AT? I thought all public schools were supposed to provide this.

While I argee that my son must learn to write better and do not want to give up on that, I feel the AT would be very helpful to him. Allowing him to concentrate on the content of his work instead of how well he is writing it.

Thanks,

Acorn

Are there no computers at your child’s school? Are there no alphasmarts? I find that difficult to believe. Why can’t he learn to write and have AT, just as you say? What might be going on here is simple case of not wanting to spend the money to give your child what he needs. Of course, one way for the school to cover its tracks on that point would be to simply decide that your son has no real need for AT, which would create a battle for you. If it is all about the money, you might be able circumvent the problem before it gets started by getting your son his own alphasmart (about $300) and teaching him to type at home. Clearly this is really the school’s responsibility, but, if you can manage it, why not avoid the problem by removing the impediment of $$. You could walk into the meeting, say that you are purchasing an alphasmart for your son, and that you want it written into his IEP that he can use it for in-class writing of more than say one sentence and for all homework assignments. I think they’d have a hard time saying no under those circumstances. Just a thought …

Andrea

Sorry, but that just doesn’t fly. You need to write a “confirmation” letter back to the counselor stating what she said. You should request an AT evaluation and I would also “cc” the superintendent of the school board. I would advise that you are “researching this matter”. (That will clue them that they are getting ready to have one informed parent) They will NEVER put what they said in writing. If they do, you need to forward it to the OCR office in Atlanta. They would love to see it.

They cannot say there is “no AT” at this school. You need to go to ReedMartin.com/Wrightslaw.com and read about 504s. My friends just got all kinds of AT under 504.

I would also say in the letter that I am requesting an OT evaluation b/c of your concern with his writing. The AT should be in place while the OT is remediating.

Hi
I have a son with ADHD and language based learning disability. Forgive me but what is AT. Do we have that here in Canada.
Sorry I’m fighting the school now and wondered if having this is a possibility for my son

Assisted Technology. (Laptop, Alpha Smart, ??). I am not to sure what all they offer, I am new to this myself.

We have our 504 meeting in about 2 weeks. I will ask about this again then.

Thanks everyone for everything. I will let you know how it goes.

Acorn