Why is it always the teachers fault?

Well, one of the reasons I am not teaching in a school setting any more is exactly this. Don’t feel so bad, it isn’t confined to LD classes, it’s everywhere.
I became very cynical after I attempted to follow a directive about loitering given that very same day by the vice -principal, and I was hauled into the office to be yelled at by a parent — the kid broke the rule but *I* got the detention and the dressing-down. In front of the student, to completely destroy any authority I may have had.
Some teachers manage in some way to turn the discussion back to the parents and sometimes the students and ask them what they think should be done — since the parents and students have no idea, all they do is blame someone else, when they are faced with the necessity of coming up with something positive they draw a blank and then the teacher can get through to them that indeed there is a problem. It isn’t easy and I am no good at playing these games so I bowed out; but worth a try.

I agree with Victoria - it is a general societal problem. In fact, one of the reasons I have a problem with how we deal with educational disabilities is that we focus on the “disability”, instead of focusing on what they ARE able to do and building on it. We should be teaching the child that they ARE capable of controlling their behavior and making decisions and learning new social and study skills, and helping them to do so in the way that works for them. We can’t accept “I can’t do it” as an excuse - we have to immediately take “I can’t do it” and change it to, “I have a hard time doing it now” and then move to “How can you start learning to do it better.” I see teachers, parents, administrators, doctors, psychologists, talk show hosts, movies, and more, all contributing to this “I’m not responsible” viewpoint. Well, guess what? We are ALL responsible, including the child! The sooner the child learns that their own behavior determines how people view them and what they are able to accomplish in the world, the healthier they will grow up.

[quote:021caad1a0=”Steve”]I agree with Victoria - it is a general societal problem. In fact, one of the reasons I have a problem with how we deal with educational disabilities is that we focus on the “disability”, instead of focusing on what they ARE able to do and building on it. We should be teaching the child that they ARE capable of controlling their behavior and making decisions and learning new social and study skills, and helping them to do so in the way that works for them. We can’t accept “I can’t do it” as an excuse - we have to immediately take “I can’t do it” and change it to, “I have a hard time doing it now” and then move to “How can you start learning to do it better.” I see teachers, parents, administrators, doctors, psychologists, talk show hosts, movies, and more, all contributing to this “I’m not responsible” viewpoint. Well, guess what? We are ALL responsible, including the child! The sooner the child learns that their own behavior determines how people view them and what they are able to accomplish in the world, the healthier they will grow up.[/quote]

WHat is happening is that teachers are passing on their low standards to their students. From a teacher point of view this works very nicely because it gives them an excuse to fail just like it gives the kids an excuse to fail.

Teachers are always whining about something. They pass this attitude onto their students. Instead of encouraging what the students can do the remind them constantly of how much they can’t do.

This problem is pandemic. They give the parents a hard time. They jerk them around by not following IEPs then they blame the student and blame the parent when they complain. Basically the kids go on strike.

These kids learn just fine. They observe their teachers and they quickly learn how to play the game.

Good teachers motivate students and bad ones discourage students.

Unions Defend Bad Teachers’Tenure - At Students’ Expense
The teacher was caught drinking in the classroom. But public school officials in Northern Virginia couldn’t fire her.

Why? Tenure laws.

”Everybody in the county knows she’s a drunk,” one parent told IBD. ”But they can’t fire her. Yeah, she’s got a problem and needs help. But you have to draw the line -for the kids. It’s a drug-free zone.”

Such stories are commonplace. Bad teachers, poor learning - nothing seems to change. And despite complaints, it doesn’t look like teacher tenure in public schools will change soon.

”I don’t see that forthcoming,” said Chuck Sambar, a member of the Glendale (Calif.) Unified School District board. ”I recognize that the power and muscle of the teacher organizations in California are so dominant over the state Legislature that the legislators are not too inclined to mess with them.”

What about the students?

A University of Tennessee study found that student test scores are lower in classrooms run by incompetent teachers.

The effects seem to last. The study showed that fifth-graders who had studied under bad teachers since second grade scored 54 to 60 points lower on math tests than students under good teachers. Scores didn’t change much when the poorly performing students were placed with better teachers.

”If an ineffective teacher isn’t dealt with, children can be permanently harmed,” said researcher William Sanders. ”They don’t just bounce back.”

There are 2.6 million public school teachers. About 18%, or 468,000 teachers, are incompetent, according to Mary Jo McGrath, who runs McGrath Systems Inc. in Santa Barbara, Calif. McGrath, an attorney, has surveyed 50,000 school administrators and helped schools remove lousy teachers. Other estimates put the number of bad teachers at around 135,000, or 5% of the total. No one knows the exact number.

However, tenure makes firing bad teachers hard and costly. On average, it takes two to three years to dismiss a tenured teacher. Each case costs about $60,000. Appeals raise the costs.

A ‘94 study by the New York State School Boards Association found that it takes 455 days and $176,870 on average for a school board to fire a teacher in that state. If the teacher appeals, costs jump to $317,000.

Also, ”the public school bureaucracy controls the state legislatures’ education committees,” said Kay O’Connor, a GOP Kansas state representative. She’s also head of the Kansas City-based Parents in Control, a school-reform lobbying group.

”Tenure is a very hot issue,” she said. ”If a legislator brings it up, it’s a battle royal… . Unless you’re molesting children or robbing banks, you can’t be fired. Unions fight for poor-performing teachers because then the schools hire more remedial teachers. More teachers equals more money for the union.”

A tenure reform in place in a few districts is ”peer review.” Instead of principals watching teachers and deciding whom to fire, teachers evaluate teachers. It’s a mentor- protege approach to tenure. Public school supporters see it as a plus. Critics, however, view it as a way for teachers unions to strengthen their hold over schools.

”Unions are aware of the criticism that tenure protects bad teachers,” said education author Myron Lieberman, head of the Education Policy Institute. ”So, their attitude is, ‘We’ll take over the process.’ If unions take over the review process, it’ll make a worse disaster of the schools - if that’s possible.” He added that while such moves appear to be reform, they really aren’t - the ”major practical effect will be to extend teacher union control over public education,” Lieberman said.

About 80% of teachers have tenure. All states and the District of Columbia have tenure laws. The two major unions - the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers - negotiated these rules. The rules vary. However, most states require new teachers to go through a three-to five-year probation. Then they’re tenured. Contracts may run to 100 pages.

School boards may try to dismiss a teacher for lots of reasons: incompetence, immorality, unprofessional conduct and, in California and Nevada, for teaching communism. Also, there are state and federal laws that teachers may use to hold onto their jobs or their teaching certificates.

Firing a bad teacher is tough. In Connecticut, for instance, superintendents cannot dismiss teachers without pay. This is ”tantamount to a paid vacation,” reported the Yankee Institute, a regional think tank.

The suspended teacher gets full salary while the superintendent plans a due process hearing. This takes about six months. At the same time, the school has to pay for a substitute teacher. An Impartial Hearing Panel then must issue a recommendation. The cost of each hearing ranges from $400 to $750.

While this occurs, the teacher, backed by the union and its lawyers, may appeal. This delay raises the school board’s costs, often by more than $100,000. Eventually, most schools either pay the teacher off or transfer him.

The Yankee Institute reported that a teacher in Ridgefield, Conn., continued to get a salary of $55,000 while suspended. The school board’s hearing and legal costs totaled more than $250,000. The teacher then countersued under federal law, claiming age discrimination and alleged violations of free speech.

Another Connecticut teacher was essentially paid off. She resigned, withdrew her countersuits, and got $200,000 plus severance and legal fees.

”Our tenure laws protect ineffective and unmotivated teachers and administrators,” said Republican New York state Assemblywoman Debra Mazzarelli. ”Removing a tenured employee from his or her position is so difficult, expensive and time-consuming that for all intents it is impossible.”

Mazzarelli introduced a bill in ‘97 to replace tenure with five-year renewable contracts. It didn’t pass. ”The teachers unions were able to stop this,” Dave Kinley, deputy executive director of the New York State School Board Association, said.

According to Tampa, Fla.-based Family First: ”Tenure creates an environment where there is simply no incentive to be a good teacher… . Serving time is what is rewarded, not teaching excellence… . Only truly egregious cases are likely to lead to attempts at dismissal. The reason is simple: It can cost local districts a fortune.”

Teachers may have needed union protection and tenure decades ago because of racial or religious bigotry. But there are so many laws to protect people today, Sambar says, teachers don’t need the unions anymore. And the unions know this.

”The unions’ mission is teachers, not children,” said O’Connor, noting that there are more than 50 pro-union education lobbyists at the Kansas Legislature. ”They want as many teachers as possible making as much money as possible. This is why they support smaller classes. It means more teachers, more pay, more money for the union.”

Sambar agrees. ”Good teachers do not need tenure. Poor or incompetent teachers use it to protect their jobs.”

This same first post to this thread by stary nite appeared on the teaching students with LD board.

I think someone reffered to that as agenda trolling.

Like the other posters who responded to this thread I agree the problem is not the students. It’s the teachers!

[quote:5aaa00a5bb=”stary_night”]I teach a HIGHSCHOOL class of 23 LD students. Actually come of them are classified as TMD, but I really can’t tell a difference between the two groups. I have not come across one child yet who can take responsibility for his/her own actions. IT IS SO FRUSTRATING. Everything is my fault, the parents fault, a friends fault, the dogs fault…any one but them. It seems as if all of the parents that I have talked to feel the same way. It is NEVER their child’s fault. They will take responsibility before they make their kids own up to it. I had a student sexually assault another student and he said that it was the girls fault for wearing certain clothes….AND THE PARENTS AGREED!! I have students that do not turn in their homework, and its my fault for giving it to them in the first place. Anyway, I was just wondering if there is a connection between the two (LD and lack of responsibility.) All of my students are capable of working somewhere in the future, but the way it is now, I can’t even see one of them getting and maintaining a job. THIS SCARES ME!!!![/quote]

[color=blue]That’s crazy. I am the parent of an ADHD child but I believe in my child taking responsibility for his own actions. I have worked with many good and bad teachers and I am sure there are good and bad parents. My daughter who was diagnosed with ADHD, excels in high school now. She is on the debate team, Beta, and gets straight A’s. She couldn’t have done this without teacher support. I deeply appreciate all of them. My younger son, however, is still trying to overcome his disability. I am certain that he will be shine as brightly as my daughter with teachers as great as the ones my daughter has had.

I read all of the messages on this topic and noticed that many of them are pointing fingers at each other. Maybe that’s the problem here. Children depend on adults to guide them, and children do know how to use either party to their advantage. I guess you (those pointing fingers) are too busy squabbling over symantics to notice that children will ultimately suffer. I wish the schools and parents would work together to come up with a solution.

Yong
[/color]

It is interesting that “Guest” neither used his name nor left an email at which he could be contacted! Guest doesn’t sound like he’s a teacher either. If not, how can he make a judgment on teachers.

The responsibilities of teachers — aside from having even ONE LD student — are tremendous. We are required to act as nurses, substitute mothers, psychologists, referees, counselors, and THEN try to actually teach basic academics — while still be required to educate students on social issues (such as drugs, AIDS, etc.)!

Accomplishing half of these responsibilities is impossible during a seven hour day. Many of us work 12 hour days and pay for most of our supplies out of our own pockets. If you really took a realistic poll or investigated, you would find that 90% of our teachers are VERY committed and dedicated to helping EACH child succeed no matter what the level of ability is.

It is appalling how many parents blame the teachers for not being able to repair in ONE year what it took the parents ELEVEN years to break in a child! I am referring to behavioral issues — not LD. I have seen parents in a local store who couldn’t control their three children — but they expect a teacher to be able to manage 30 kids WHILE educating them at the same time!

I chose not to join the nation union. I have a master’s degree in elementary education. I have taught for many years. My scores and my evaluations have been excellent. I do not defend teachers who don’t do their jobs. My reply is to those who don’t know what they’re talking about and blame teachers for everything. Good grief.

Teachers have many hats to wear. Many things must be done to get to the point where the teacher can actually teach the lesson. Teachers like a challenge and most step up to the plate and get it done without a bunch of fanfare.

I am a twenty-one year teaching veteran and have taught grades 6 - 12. No, absolutely not! The lack of ownership in actions - or the lack of them as the case may be - is not limited to students with learning disibilities, and this is especially true of middle school age children in general.

The blame can always be handed over to someone else. And, as already stated by Victoria, the parents come in and support the students to the the nth degree. It doesn’t matter that we were in the classroom and observed certain behaviors; their absence somehow makes them the authority on the situation and they’re sure that “Johnny” would never have done thus and so.

The fact that a child’s homework is not completed or he failed to study for a test usally is not his fault. Parents will say they had to be somewhere and Johnny couldn’t study. Or, I picked Johnny up early and in rushing him he forgot his study guide and left it at school.

Why is accepting the blame for one’s child’s behavior so easily done by so many parents? When do they expect their child to step up to the plate and be a responsible, productive member of his community - school. etc…?

Students with learning disibilities - from my experience are not much worse than many middle school age students. Of course, this varies.

Wow! Is that right? Adolescents won’t take responsibility for their own actions?

When did this start? What’ll we do, what’ll we do!!?

Oh, for those halcyon days when teenagers demanded to be held accountable for their errors and it was all a parent could do to stop them from paying their own way! I can’t think what must have gotten into the young people!

I only hope they haven’t stooped to {gulp} bending the truth in order to evade responsibility.

[b]Sometimes, I wonder if I’m living on the same planet as others who post here.[/b]

(Historical note: I remember teachers, and they were mostly no great shakes at their job and highly world-weary, abusive individuals. Excellent teachers I’ve known I could count on one hand.)

I have a quote I like to share: “Generalizations are always bad!”

We are making some gross generalizations here that create conflict and dissention. Clearly, there are good teachers and bad teachers. Clearly, it’s not “always the teacher’s fault”. Clearly, some parents want to blame the teachers. It’s also true that some teachers want to blame children for failing to learn rather than revising their methods. Some kids are difficult to teach in a standard classroom environment. All of these things can be true at the same time!

What we should be focusing on is not blame, but effective intervention to help kids take responsibility to whatever level they are able. That’s a big part of the challenge of being a teacher AND being a parent - balancing the child’s need for nurturance and feelings of success with their need to experience the consequences of their actions and learn from them. It’s never the same experience for any two children. The further we get from generalizations, and the more we can talk about individual cases and specifics, the easier it will be to come to a meaningful conclusion. Unless people just WANT to argue…

I, by no means, want to extend this debate, however, I just wanted to comment on what I have encountered. Everytime I have approached my son’s teacher or any other staff member to express concern over his lack of progress, his teacher has called me and asked why I was questioning her teaching abilities. I have never ONCE questioned her abilities to teach, only my son’s ability to learn. I have tried to approach her and ASK her for her help, which she wasn’t willing to give. I haven’t even complained to other staff members about her lack of communication (she never returns my phone calls or answers my notes).

However, she automatically assumes that any time I discuss my son’s learning difficulties, I am personally attacking her. I don’t understand this.

I don’t know the circumstances that this post was originally based on, but I just wanted to say that not all parents are blaming the teachers — some of us are just trying to help our children the best that we know how.

stary_night wrote:

[b]I have not come across one child yet who can take responsibility for his/her own actions. IT IS SO FRUSTRATING…Anyway, I was just wondering if there is a connection between the two (LD and lack of responsibility.) All of my students are capable of working somewhere in the future, but the way it is now, I can’t even see one of them getting and maintaining a job. THIS SCARES ME!!!![/b]

I can’t see why stary_night would be surprised by this phenomenon given the society we live in. As for being fearful regarding the future employability of these students, I can’t see why they shouldn’t aspire to the very highest spheres…

Bush (Iraq WMD, Niger uranium, Katrina levee budget cut issues, etc. [lip sevice to responsibility, no real blame-taking and zero consequences])

Clinton (define “is”, “I did not have sex with that woman”) - zero consequences even when caught

Bernard Ebbers - I didn’t know

Jeffrey Skilling - I didn’t know

Ken Lay - I didn’t know

Richard Scrushy - I didn’t know

Martha Stewart - I didn’t know

Catholic church hierarchy - We didn’t know

Military Superiors at Abu Ghraib and Iraq - We didn’t know

All (except Clinton) doing the Sargeant Shultz impression.

I agree with Steve and Victoria in that teachers can determine the attitudes of their students. I know everyone gets upset/discouraged, but as teachers, we have to set examples for our students. If we don’t like being at school, do you think that our students will? Some teachers at my school have made the comment about low-achieving students that have just moved into the area : ” Maybe they’ll move again soon.” This infuriates me. See, again, it’s someone else’s ‘problem’. The way I look at it , they’re all my students and they’re MY responsibilty to model expectations and to provide a non-threatening classroom environment.

[quote=”Anonymous”][quote:558e54f434=”Steve”]Good teachers motivate students and bad ones discourage students.[/quote]

I agree

I have a kindergartner with ADHD (with aggression) and in public school. He’s highly intelligent and advanced. He is still 4. I am getting such a difficult time with the principal, counselors and others in the school (his current teacher is fine but doesn’t seem to be effective in helping to improve his behavior). It was a struggle to get the 504 plan in place; it’s a struggle to have them hire a one-to-one aide. I keep getting suggestions on what to try with him at home to change his behavior, but the majority of the behavior problems are in the classroom. I am told by the school I am not doing enough when I and my husband are doing all we can. Every other preschool and others through testing or observation have deemed my son to be advanced. His current school says they tested him (how, when, where, with what test are all unknown) and say no, he’s only right at kindergarten level. I’m tired of the institutional resistance, the blaming of involved, concerned parents, the staunch defense of the school, staff and school system, the attitudes and the inability to help my son. Something about that environment is really bothering him and eroding his self-esteem. I plan to put him in a private school where at least they appear willing to give him a fighting chance and they recognize his academic talent and potential. It won’t be easy with the aggression, but I can’t take the public school anymore. Teachers may feel blamed, but all I have seen several of them, plus the school administrators, do in two months is try to blame my child or his parents and defend themselves. I also remember my teachers in my school career and can count the good ones on one hand, except for high school.
Teachers often get the blame because there are so many bad ones, they give all the others a bad name. And I agree with the poster who said good teachers encourage students and bad teachers discourage students. The teachers and administrators at my son’s school are so negative, it’s heartbreaking. Imagine how he must feel walking into such an environment each day.

We did the same thing - just avoided the public school system altogether, or used public alternative schools (which we are fortunate to have in Portland, OR!) We homeschooled part of the time and even helped create a charter school for kids with varied learning styles.

You state that he is agressive, but most of the problems happen in school. Has the medication had any impact on the aggression? There are cases I know of where aggression has decreased on medication, and there are others where it has increased. It is important to be aware that stimulants can worsen aggressive symptoms in some children and to watch for that.

It sounds like you are doing a great job and getting very little support from the schools. I don’t think this is necessarily unusual. Sometimes it’s easier to avoid the fight altogether and to go for the alternatives. Homeschooling saved us enormous problems, we never resorted or were pressured to use medication, and our oldest turned out just fine. The educational setting is a huge variable that is very much underestimated in importance.

The medication (DexoStat, half a pill a day to start) appears to help with the aggression, although he seems more whiny, tired and quicker to cry. We visited the private school I want to put him in yesterday, and he wouldn’t participate in the class at first, saying, “I already know that!” I think part of the problem is that he’s bored. And that he does things to get out of class when he’s bored.

I think I need to give him half a pill two times a day, because once that first dose wears off … yesterday, he hit, kicked and pulled an aftercare teacher’s hair. Because during story time, he lay on the floor and hit the wall with his feet, and she told him to stop.

If I can get him to keep his hands off people, that will probably be half the battle. He picks who he pummels; it’s not just anybody.

Thanks for your response, Steve.

Esmom:

[i]I think I need to give him half a pill two times a day, because once that first dose wears off…[/i]

1. Do you suppose you should be playing around with the dosages of serious drugs prescribed to a 4-year old?

2. How do you know the first dose is “wearing off”? How do you know that the first dose isn’t just kicking in and causing increased aggression? Do you suppose you should be playing around with the dosages of serious drugs prescribed to a 4-year old, based purely on guesswork?

3. I’m no doctor either but I’d prescribe a good spanking. Start with one at first (it should sting a bit), increasing the dose if the problems persist throughout the day - (there’s no maximum while symptoms persist). This should be liberally applied, topically, preferably on the larger muscle area of the gluteous. I am, however, like you, a good guesser, and I’m guessing that he’ll never lay a hand on a teacher ever again.

4. Ask your doctor to flush the drugs.

Is he really ready for school at 4 anyway? Why not keep him at home, since the problems are in school? What is he getting there that’s worth putting him on amphetamines and punishing him for not liking it there and being bored?

[quote:8032ed9874=”Brian”]Esmom:

[i]I think I need to give him half a pill two times a day, because once that first dose wears off…[/i]

1. Do you suppose you should be playing around with the dosages of serious drugs prescribed to a 4-year old?

2. How do you know the first dose is “wearing off”? How do you know that the first dose isn’t just kicking in and causing increased aggression? Do you suppose you should be playing around with the dosages of serious drugs prescribed to a 4-year old, based purely on guesswork?

3. I’m no doctor either but I’d prescribe a good spanking. Start with one at first (it should sting a bit), increasing the dose if the problems persist throughout the day - (there’s no maximum while symptoms persist). This should be liberally applied, topically, preferably on the larger muscle area of the gluteous. I am, however, like you, a good guesser, and I’m guessing that he’ll never lay a hand on a teacher ever again.

4. Ask your doctor to flush the drugs.[/quote]

I’m not guessing. I observed, I relayed my observations and cleared it with my son’s psychiatrist on the pills. The behavior on versus off the pill in the school and aftercare setting has been consistent.

What would you say if I’ve told you my son has received quite a few spankings and gone back to school the next day and done the same thing, several days in a row? I’ve basically laid off the spanking because it doesn’t work for the school misbehavior.

[quote:df2a733cbf=”Steve”]Is he really ready for school at 4 anyway? Why not keep him at home, since the problems are in school? What is he getting there that’s worth putting him on amphetamines and punishing him for not liking it there and being bored?[/quote]

I understand your points, but who’s supposed to keep him at home? Our household is currently single-parent and dependent upon my income. In the daycare setting it’s the same story, only their attitude is they don’t have to have the patience to help him; they can just disenroll him. They also promise to put behavior plans into place and never do so. They also promise to work with the non-profit organization that provided observations and recommendations and strategies and break their promises. Teachers at his current aftercare, one of the better daycares in this area, hadn’t bothered to read the recommendations until recently. No behavior plan has been put in place.

What is he getting at school? He’s already starting to read in two months. He can spell more, count better, draw and color better, and is feeding his brain. Since I can’t home school him, and daycares won’t do their job, and he’s very bright and even a bit advanced, I’d rather keep him in school. Unless he gets help (other than pills), it’s going to be the same problems year after year. And when exactly will he be ready? Perhaps his new school will work better with his parents to help him instead of some daycare that is primarily interested in filling a space and taking our money but want as little problem as possible.

Esmom:

[i]I’m not guessing. I observed, I relayed my observations and cleared it with my son’s psychiatrist on the pills. The behavior on versus off the pill in the school and aftercare setting has been consistent.[/i]

The trouble is that you appear to be reading in conclusions that aren’t necessarily true. You wrote that you were thinking of upping the pill dosage due to later-in-the-day recurrence or increase of aggression. I’m saying that it’s possible that that aggression is the later-in-the-day kicking-in of the first pill dose. If you eat a heavy meal at 6 pm and wake up in the night with indigestion, will that indigestion be caused by the heavy meal or the wearing off of the heavy meal. Effects don’t always follow causes along the lines of our short attention spans and abilities to relate both events. It’s also possible that the pills have no effect and your communicated anxiety, or lack thereof, releases or cages the monster.

Do you agree that that’s possible and can you see how adding 1 and 1 doesn’t always make for the same 2? Will you also agree that the psychiatrist is also guessing? If (s)he wasn’t (s)he’d have put him on the correct dose to begin with. Doctoring [b]equals [/b]guessing. I believe it’s dangerous to guess too lightly when prescribing strong medication to 4-year olds.

[i]What would you say if I’ve told you my son has received quite a few spankings and gone back to school the next day and done the same thing, several days in a row? I’ve basically laid off the spanking because it doesn’t work for the school misbehavior.[/i]

I wouldn’t say anything unless I knew how and when the spanking was being administered relative to the behavior. I was specifically referring to the incident of physical attack on the aftercare teacher. You seemed to suggest that your remedy for that is an increased dosage of whatever it is you give him. I can’t accept that an action like that is beyond the child’s control unless he has a serious mental disorder. Spanking, a good spanking, should work where the child is, in fact, in control of his actions. It’s a matter of degrees. Perhaps you’re not doing it right. Maybe you should double the dose. “Several days in a row” is nothing in the world of spanking. You must remember that you are, in effect, training an animal to conform to your will. This was known and accepted for millenia, before falling out of fashion in the last 20 years - with tragic consequences. Forget the shrinks - have him go out and cut his own switch. Make a responsible man and not a crybaby lifer.

There’s a difference between unscholarly behavior (inattentiveness, boredom, indiscipline, impulsiveness, etc.) and physically attacking a teacher. I don’t think it’s a good idea to lump the two things together. The former may have many causes, interior and exterior to the student; the latter is always sheer badness or mental illness. Students either control their urge to physically attack their teacher or they enter a mental hospital for treatment (or later a prison for punishment/rehabilitation and society’s protection).

[i]If I can get him to keep his hands off people, that will probably be half the battle. He picks who he pummels; it’s not just anybody.[/i]

I say SPANK, SPANK, SPANK, for all shows of physical aggression, from now on, on the hour if needs be, like his very life depended on it! And I’d keep the him away from folk until he learns to “keep his hands off people”.

I have to say that I am not a big spanking fan, but I agree that it sounds like this child needs intensive and consistent discipline. The only thing I can say is, if this school is unwilling to do what is needed, find another school. That’s what they are being paid for. I know this is easier said than done, but it is very clear that certain environments are better for kids who are bright and active, and that other environments can make things worse. The best environments are ones where there is a lot of freedom for individual decision making within a very clear structure of what is and is not allowable, which is consistently enforced. Positive reinforcement can be much more effective that punishment, although both have to be a part of the picture. The goal of discipline is to teach new behaviors. I would very much want to know what preceded the hitting incidents, whether the teacher is expecting something unreasonable or unfair, whether the teacher put hands on the child before the child hit him/her, whether the child is being given an alternative to hitting and reinforced positively for using it. All of these things make a difference. While there is really no excuse for hitting a teacher, the child is only 4, and some accomodations need to be made for maturity and development. Unless you and the teachers can get on the same page on these issues, you will continue to have difficulties. Since you have already tried to work out a unified plan, which they have ignored, and since they seem more interested in medication than teaching new behaviors, I would seek another setting that it more supportive.

Thanks for your comments, Steve and Brian. I will be moving my son to a private school that knows about his difficulties and is willing to try to work with him. The kindergarten has a teacher’s aide in addition to the teacher, and the class is only a few students smaller. It is a bigger and lot less cluttered room, with adequate room for moving around. The teacher appears more patient and caring and has dealt with ADHD kids before. We’ll hope for the best. He’ll be attending their aftercare as well (and going to therapy and getting a comprehensive assessment as well). I’d like to be able to take him off medication eventually. Already, he’s saying things like, “My medication just isn’t working” when he does something wrong.

I can understand that the doctor is guessing too. My belief and hope is that a full assessment and therapy will get to the root cause, which likely will help him the most.

In the most recent incident of hitting the aftercare teacher (he has struck his elementary teachers as well as other kids and has trashed the vice principal’s and daycare directors’ offices), he was told to stop banging his feet on the wall during story time. Now, the way it was done, etc. is not known to me because I wasn’t there. I do know that teachers who try to physically restrain him firmly will get attacked. And if the initial tantrum is not nipped in the bud, it escalates drastically (see above). The strategies used in both school and aftercare settings are, I suspect, not consistent with the exception of sending him to another room.

It seems that spanking would work with the aggression only if I would go to the school soon after the occurrence and spank him.

It really sounds like the better approach would be to identify the “problem times” where he is likely to act out, and to develop some alternatives for him. He may not like “story time”, or he may simply not like having to SIT STILL during story time. He may need something to keep his hands and feet busy during such times, or he may need an alternative activity to do when he is feeling bored with the story. Giving him his own book to read, having a quite “sqeeze toy” he can play with during the story, or having a quiet corner he can go to when the others are doing an activity he doesn’t like, all are reasonable ways to deal with a 4-year-old’s normal difficulties in attending and sitting still. Many kids older than him have similar difficulties. My youngest had such a plan when he was in Kindergarten. We made a list with the teacher of things Kevin can do when he doesn’t want to be with the group, and if he started acting up, the teacher just directed him to his list. Pretty soon, he didn’t need the list and just took care of business himself. His first grade teacher didn’t want to do this, and Kevin had a lot more difficulty with her. He was 7 at the time. I hate to think what he would have been like if he had the same requirements at the age of 4. We tried him in about three preschools and had to discontinue every time because he refused to participate in certain activities and started to refuse to go, saying he was bored. Kevin is extremely intelligent and self-motivated about things he thinks are important, but he hates being told what to do, or even being pinned down to a schedule. It has been very important for him to be in an environment that respects his need for flexibility and gradually engages him in activities that he is interested in, while allowing him to “opt out” when necessary. Now that he is in 4th grade and is almost 10, he is much more willing to go along with group activities. I would imagine your son’s development will be similar. Much of the problem comes when we force our kids to do certain kinds of things before they are developmentally ready to do them. The school should know this and be flexible about expectations so that your son can find his “niche” without having constant power struggles about compliance.

Those are good suggestions. I will ask his teacher about the squeeze ball and having his own book. My son has said to me about school, “They just want me to sit and sit…” I know his teacher has made it plain that when he is supposed to be learning, he cannot go play on his own. That I understand, but perhaps something that will calm him down (but not be a distraction like a stuffed animal) or a “quiet corner” may be workable. I think my son’s issue is having to sit still through the story more so than hearing the story. The assessments he is having done should shed light on learning style and attention. You’re right — patience and flexibility are key. Thanks.

Jeez, the kids’ only 4! He just doesn’t have it in him to sit still that long! Most of these problems with “ADHD” are caused by unreasonable expectations, in my mind. Even HE knows, if he didn’t have to sit still all day, he’d to a lot better. So what’s the big deal about sitting? Are we trying to rasie office workers here or what? Even most adult wouldn’t put up with what we ask of our kindergarteners.

Hope you find that new school soon!

Brian, you are certainly correct that being physically aggressive and destructive of property is way out of line and deserves strong measures. There is no excuse for those behaviors under any circumstances. But I am talking about prevention. If you take a dog and put it in a small cage for weeks on end, when you let the dog out, it is likely to be either depressed, anxious, or overly aggressive. Sure, you can teach the dog to behave, but what the heck were you doing keeping it in a small cage for 8 or 10 weeks straight? If he chews on your funiture after that, you have got it coming to you!

Kids of 4 need to run, climb, and engage the environment. They should be taught that there are certain times that they need to sit still (like meals, for example) and that there are rules to interacting with people that don’t allow things like hitting and breaking others’ things EVER. But why put them in an environment that is specifically designed in a way that will frustrate their natural instincts to explore and learn, and arbitrarily force them to sit still all day when there is not one iota of evidence that this approach teaches anything more than letting them play at recess for 5 hours interspersed with 30 minutes of one-on-one reading once or twice a day? When I was in kindergarten, we sang the alphabet song and had a few short lessons on colors and numbers, but most of the time, we played “Old MacDonald” or built with blocks or played “tag” on the playground. I read very well, write very well, speak very well, have excellent interpersonal skills, am able to sit at my desk calmly for hours as needed, and am generally considered a highly productive member of society. Do you really think that teaching me to “sit still” for extended periods of time in Kindergarten would have substantially impacted my long-term success?

I am not advocating for coddling kids who are aggressive or violent. I am advocating for creating an environment that takes into accont the fact that a 4 year old can only be expected to tolerate so much direct instruction from an adult before they start coming apart at the seams. I think we should create environments that respect the developmental needs of the children involved, rather than doing what is convenient for the adults and expecting every child to magically fit in. I think the current “epidemic” of ADHD diagnosis and medication is largely a result of passing inappropriate expectations down to lower and lower grades in school. Letter grades for first graders, teaching to the test, eliminating recess, eliminating art, muic and PE, increasing levels of homework, all contribute to more and more kids being unable or unwilling to cope with the unreasonable demands of the school environment. And yes, there are increasing issues with kids lacking discipline at home, and yes, I agree that this contributes as well. But most of the kids getting an ADHD diagnosis get it because of teachers complaining about the child not fitting into the classroom. And yet we know from research that ADHD-diagnosed kids have very little difficulty in a more informal, less structured classroom, to the extent that they are virtually indistinguishable from “normal” kids. Why not change the environment so that it works for the child? And there is no reason you can’t create a more appropriate environment AND teach the child self-discipline at the same time. The best approach is to do them both. I am a firm disciplinary authority with my kids, but they go to alternative schools, and I wouldn’t put them in a standard classroom in elementary school these days. It’s just not a healthy environment for the active, intelligent, creative, independent thinkers that my kids are and that I want them to remain.

Changing the environment is a good idea, but there would be major institutional resistence. They think they are right, and meanwhile, you have medicated kids, kids pushed into special ed and labeled kids. I don’t remember kindergarten being overly academic for me either. All these academics, and the schools are still failing our kids for the most part.

You know, I thought I did find that good school. His first day was yesterday. He had a few incidents of saying, no and stupid (side note, he doesn’t do most of this stuff at home, mom and dad consistently discipline him, and he is easy to redirect, even with the hyperactivity, at home). He talked with the principal, who seems understanding, a couple of times, and in the afternoon he was fine. However, he acted up big time the last half hour of aftercare, after his friends went home. The aftercare teachers (one of whom is his new teacher’s aide) was clueless as to how to prevent the escalation and how to deal with him. She tried saying, “I love you. I want you in this school. You’re a good kid; you just need to make the evil part go away.” Someone was agitatedly telling me about what all my son had done, and come to find out later it was some parent, not a teacher. First, I believe in bad behavior, not bad kids. Second, “evil part?” I did discuss strategies with the teacher aide, and I told the principal that when my son’s friends leave aftercare, he can watch a video on his little Video Now player.

The aftercare teachers wrote a letter to the principal about what happened. That was fine, but they chose to have the irate parent who witnessed the behavior add her two cents: “I witnessed his disrespectful attitude and his kicking and screaming and throwing things.”

This morning, on his second day, a little boy in his class asked him, “Are you going to be good today?” and the kindergarten teacher smiled and hugged and rubbed the little boy. This was a week after she told me that she didn’t allow children to say things like that to each other. My son also told me that another ADHD boy in his class told him he was “bad.”

This is apparently my alternative to public school. The private religious schools appear to take such behavior as personal affronts to authority. He is a precocious, strong-willed child who is very active, but I don’t think he intends to buck authority. I will try to keep him at this school for kindergarten.

In January, I will tour a local Montessori school and have him go through the testing for first grade. The saga continues…

Steve & Esmom,

I posted something yesterday, between Steve’s last two posts on page 6 of this thread. Unfortunately it’s not there now and I can only assume that it was removed for some reason by the moderator.

Moderator,

If you did, in fact, remove my last post, could you please have the common decency to make a place-note stating that you did so and giving a brief reason why you did so? Otherwise, you engender confusion where none was before. If there is a rule and it has been broken, you have every right to take the steps you believe necessary to remedy the situation, but please have the courage of your convictions and not arbitrarily remove posts without explanation. I really can’t see what might have been found objectionable in my post. Since you saw fit not to provide an explanation, I must remain in the dark, possibly to make the same error, whatever it was, in the future. Why not just state your reasons? I have no problem in following the rules if I know what they are.

Thread…

Steve, I agree with you on the environment points. Where we seem to part ways is on the mixing of “symptoms”. I don’t agree with the thinking that you can lump scholarly indisciplines, perhaps a “lust for life”, and a vivid imagination under a few capital letters and call it a problem. It’s a problem for those who would have an easy life making automatons conform to their view of what a citizen should be, sure, but it’s not a medical problem that necessarily needs fixing.

However, I feel that there is a major difference between running around the room or being more easily distracted than others of the same age, and physical aggression towards authority figures by a 4 year old. I think it’s dangerous to lump that along with the other “problem symptoms” and it would be tragic if some doctor came up with the new label “ADD with violent rages including the use of physical force”. As far as I know, physical violence does not appear on any “ADHD”-type list of symptoms. I just wanted to keep the two things apart. In bringing the discussion back to the “mainstream” issues, you appear to want to lump them together.

Since most schools fail to adequately accomodate any type of uniqueness (+/- 5% of their clinically derived “normal”) or personality difference, it’s obvious that the boy in question is not going to have any root causes fixed for him - even if we were to accept that his behavior, as described to us, could ever be justifiable. In this real world then, a solution would have to be sought around the environmental issues. I’ve offered my opinion. Can you tell us what you believe should be done outside of changing the entire system? If this boy’s violent outbursts were to continue in a proven successful alternative environment, what steps would you suggest should be taken? Are you 100% against corporal punishment or are there cases where you believe it’s use is definitely indicated?

Also, I don’t advocate children being taught how to sit for periods longer than their development level indicates. Nothing from Esmom though, indicated that the class was being asked to do more than normal for their age. Sit for story-time. What’s that, about 15 mins to half an hour tops? What I read was that the boy didn’t want to get up from the floor and sit at all - not for a minute. I also read that his response to not being allowed to break the rules was totally inappropriate.

What I meant by schools teaching us how to remain seated, etc., is that school has a role in preparing us for the demands living in society will later place on us. We learn to obey rules there, for the good of all, as we developmentally progress. It’s not the best institution but it’s all we have and it’s better than anarchy. Trying to paint a picture whereby children are tortured into sitting for hours at early ages doesn’t make for useful input to the discussion. Let’s keep it real and assume that children aren’t normally being asked to do things that are beyond their powers.

It’s all very well raising individuals. What we need in society though, is individuals who know how to take orders. Freedom is not the ability to do what you want. Freedom is the ability to do what you want within the bounds of societal rules should you choose to live in, and benefit from, that society.

Well, it was torture for me, and I had no trouble sitting still. But I was BORED TO DEATH!

I am glad we agree on setting appropriate developmental expectations and being adaptable to kids outside the middle of the bell curve. I figured we did, actually.

I read somewhere in the postings that the child stated “all we do is sit all day,” and my response was to that statement taken in context of all of the above. I do think it very unreasonable for a 4-year-old to have to sit for extended periods of time (more than about 10 minutes or so, unless it’s nap time). I am also very aware of ways we can make it easier for kids to deal with those expecations.

I believe we have to start where the child is at and gradually build in higher and higher expectations in a gradual way. Schools generally make no effort whatsoever to do this, except in the most rudimentary fashion, assuming that all 1st graders can do this, all second graders can do this, etc., right on up to high school. Of course, this doesn’t work at all for some kids who don’t fit into the “normal curve” expectations, either at the high or the low end. I was at the high end, and I wasted enormous amounts of time on meaningless and pointless activities.

What is the alternative? Well, there are plenty of alternative school models out there, some of which have been shown far more effective in dealing with kids with uneven levels of development (very bright and precocious but emotionally immature, great in reading but poor in math, etc.) Most of these involve more individualized instruction and a level of spontaneity that is rare in regular schools. My kids are at a charter school that we helped to found, which would work very well for the average “ADHD” - diagnosed child, with or without any medical intervention. We also homeschooled for 4 years, with no apparent ill effects on our kids’ academic or social skills (except that they all have poor handwriting!) So there are alternative ways to approach these kids that do work. It’s a matter of having those alternative choices available.

As for spanking, I don’t use that approach with my own kids, partly because I think it sends the wrong message (“Don’t hit people or I will hit you!”) and partly because I know my own limitations based on my history and don’t want to allow the line between discipline and abuse to get in any way blurry for me. I don’t judge others for the judicious use of spanking, though it has to be used in a reasoned and consistent way that gives the child a clear message about what is and is not expected of them. I think that consistency is by far the most important element of any discipline plan. I have always been able to come up with something that is motivating/demotivating for my kids when I needed to reel them in. The question is always whether my wife and I can get together on it enough to make the consequences stick. When we do, the behavior changes. I’m actually writing a book about it. So it’s not really that big an issue for me, but I personally don’t think it is a reqirement to use spanking to establish an effective disciplinary plan. It IS important to know your child and how they work, and it is also important to let them know what you approve of and wish as well as what you don’t want them to do.

All things considered, it doesn’t sound like we are very far apart on most of these issues. The spanking question relates to each family’s needs and values. The school thing is a larger social question that we can certainly debate at length, but after your postings on the “Prussian Model”, I can’t see that we disagree much about that topic either.

Anyway, thanks for getting back to me. Take care!

Most schools don’t deal well with melt downs, expecting that children no longer do those sorts of things once they reach school age. The larger question though is why did he melt down. You mention all his friends left. Could you pick him up earlier so he doesn’t have to cope with this? It might be too much for him. Alternatively, he just might not be the kind of kid who can handle school and after care. It might require him holding it together for too long. Also, after care isn’t as structured as school, and for some kids, that is a problem.

Beth

All good points. My son has his biggest problems in unstructured times or where he is supposed to sit still for extended periods. Schools in general don’t do weLL with meltdowns, I agree.

In his new private school, the one that we were honest with, the one that promised to work with my son as late as this morning, called my husband after I had dropped my son off and was on my way to work. My son had a meltdown because he couldn’t draw a zebra “right.” Several school employees tried to restrain/pick up/calm him (apparently, per their protocol) and he kicked three employees. The director called my husband to say they were refunding all of our money and to come get him immediately. I haven’t gotten him yet; I will get him when it’s time go to go the psychiatrist today.

The kicking is unacceptable, I’ve spoken with my son about this, and some favorite toys were taken away. But we laid the cards on the table and gave the school the 504 plan and asked several times if we could discuss prevention strategies. They were not very receptive (a warning sign, but he had started the school by then). He didn’t last there three days, because of tantrums, with some aggression towards adults. He didn’t hit any of the kids. The school became jittery on day one when he told the teacher and director “no” and called them “stupid” and “doo-doo.” He knows better than to do all of that. I feel misinformed and even lied to by the school, and I feel trapped into the public school system. There are no charter schools in the county where I live. I will tour a Montessori school for next year, but for now, there are few options. Except for a private school that handles ADHD kids. That costs $18,000 a year, and is 45 minutes away.

Was he always this way? No. Is he always on tantrum mode? No. Have the tantrums and crying jags increased since he’s been on medication? Yes. I may have to try another one. If I do, that will be his third medication.

My husband and I are reconsidering the home schooling issue. A coworker (who has an ADHD teen) predicts I’ll go insane homeschooling my son. The loss of income will be drastic.

This is all beginning to sound like a movie on Lifetime television. If you see it on there, it’s because I sold the story to pay for the special ADHD school…

I feel for you but don’t have any answers. Most schools, private or public, are not set up to handle aggression. I would look at the medication, especially if you think it has made the problems worse.

There was a boy in my youngest son class who clearly had some LD/ADHD issues. The school tried to work with them until he kicked the principal. Then he was out of there. He had been there since K and this happened in 3rd grade. It is a parochial school that professes to work with a wide spectrum of kids (My own LD child has been successful there.) but certainly was not willing to handle violence.

Beth

I didn’t realize he was taking stimulants. This kind of behavior can definitely be made worse with stimulants for some kids. It might be time to go back to the drawing board and get him off everything and see if he is better. After all, inattention is annoying, but aggression is going to get him into a lot worse trouble than inattention! Some kids do become aggressive or even psychotic on stimulants, and the only way I know of to find out for sure is to take him off and see if it improves the situation.

We did homeschool our oldest for four years, and he was never on medication. It was hard, but we managed it. It gave us the opportunity to work on what was most important for him (social skills and accepting limits and parental authority) rather than spending excessive time on academics, where he was already strong. Sure, we could have pushed him and had him doing algebra in 4th grade, but we figured teaching him to behave appropriately was more important, so that’s where we put our emphasis. By the time he was back in school (6th grade), no one ever suggested he was an ADHD kid, even though he was a classic case at 5 or 6. It might be worth a try.

First off, definitely look at the medication issue. If he is more violent, the medication is not helping.

Kicking someone -> taking a few toys away?
I think you need to re-evaluate actions and consequences. For a very major action like this, one that has gotten him removed from school and has disrupted several people’s lives, you need a major consequence. Extreme grounding, ie removal of *all* fun and privileges, would be a start. A long time-out, as in up to several hours, until he is willing to talk calmly and apologize, would also be a good idea — something like the Super-Nanny approach (I saw one show where it took a couple of hours and multiple tries to get the child to realize that this time, yes, people were *serious* about the time-outs.)

I am surprised at the school. If a child starting acting like this around me, I would tend to *not* let him win the game and would give him the extreme time-outs at school until he got the point.
Of course, my problem in schools was with parents who didn’t want their little darling to have to do anything he didn’t feel like, so now I tutor and have the parents pay me cash for the privilege of having me make the kid do what he doesn’t want to.
I think the principal is probably worried about the other parents hearing about violent meltdowns — as they certainly will — and pulling their kids out of the school. This is an issue you are going to have to deal with in any privte school.

What is your problem with the public school? They do ahve to take him and they do have to work with him.

I think Victoria has a point. Your son has a hard time controlling himself. Are the consequences for bad behavior enough to make it worth the effort? I think not.

We dealt with this with our LD middle child when he was 3. The difference was he was well behaved in daycare and a terror at home, which is easier. He was kicking the walls of his room in and throwing things across the room. He was hitting us. My sister is a clinical social worker and she probably saved him. We set up consistent and predictable consequences. Everytime he hit, even a slap, he had to sit in a chair facing the wall. If he didn’t stay there, which he never did at the beginning, we moved him to his room. If he trashed his room, he missed a family privilege. We deliberatly scheduled fun things that he was excluded from. For example, one of us would take his sister for a bike ride and we would make a point of letting him know he couldn’t go and why. We also paid attention to what brought on his rages and tried to eliminate triggers. But most of all, we were deadly consistent no matter how inconvenient. If he slapped my hand because he wanted to hold the pan making eggs in the morning (I remember this one), he was punished. Before I used to take into account the fact that it was only a little slap and we needed to get to work.

He is 12 now and occasionally plummels his brother, who totally deserves it, but is actually the best behaved of our children. I think we were forced to be consistent with him in a way we were not with our first. When I tell people what he used to be like, noone believes me.

I am sure now my son had SID as a child and was easily overwhlemed. He fit all the risk factors for oppositional disorder (or whatever it is called). My sister who had experience working with emotionally disturbed children helped us nip it in the bud. Basically, you have to decide that there is nothing that justifies a child acting like this and that as parents you need to take control of the situation. We later realized the extent of his learning disabilities but we would never had been able to accomplish what we have had we not dealt with his behavior first.

Beth

Steve,

I apologise for not being able to express myself coherently enough in order to get my points across to you. It appears that I can’t make myself understood about the fact that I am specifically addressing the case of the 4 year old boy described to us here by his mother.

I believe spanking is not the only remedy, is usually not the most effective for minor offences, and is sometimes not the best ansewer for more serious events. However, in this case, in this specific case, I see it as the only solution. If it doesn’t work - the family appear to be in big problems.

So, anecdotes about your own children’s ability to respond to reasoning and other alternative forms of discipline would only be pertinent here if they had displayed similar violent physical behavior in the past and been “cured” of it using those methods.

I notice a distinct reticence on your part to speak to this specific case. You touch on specifics and then veer off on a general tangent when opining upon possible solutions. Again, mixing the specific issue here with general “school issues” probably won’t help. One of the problems that could arise from that is that “problems” that take the form of your children will be denied any accomodations (“shunned”, I suppose is the word) if “problems” that take the form of the 4-year old boy in question are permitted to be generally labelled “ADHD”. The generalizations made in label itself are bad enough, let’s not let it get out of hand.

Thread….

It doesn’t matter why he’s doing these things (I see they’ve been redubbed “tantrums”. They’re not tantrums, they would be crimes if he was a little older), it only matters that he is doing them.

That’s not the fault of any of the various centers he’s been to (obviously). So, who’s fault is it. I’ll leave that one for the mother to think over and come up with an answer for. Fault apart, something obviously happened in that boy’s life that made him start to rebel against school. That thing might be any one of the following:

1. His mommy left him and went to work. He didn’t like that. Since she left him in daycare or aftercare, that kind of place bears the brunt of his retribution. His goal (did you know there was a goal in all this?) is to get out of aftercare by getting his mommy back home. He sounds like he has a lot of energy for what will probably be a long-drawn out fight. Who’ll break first? The boy who is having a great time trashing and bashing, with zero consequences, or his mom?

2. The same as the above only when his actual tantrums about being “abandoned” kicked in, zealous everybody decided that he should be drugged. Drugs don’t have the desired calming effect on every guinea pig. Fat was thrown on what was probably a minor fire.

3. Something else happened. Someone died. Someone got remarried. A move. Check out that life stress points chart and see what triggered this.

Esmom is correct, there are no bad boys. Bad behavior of this magnitude is the effect of some cause. Esmom may already know what the cause was/is. I suspect she already knows it has nothing to do with school. I would hazard the guess that if she told him definitely that he never had to go back to aftercare after this week, this week he would be a model…a model…what do you call a boy who attends aftercare - a dumpee?

However, the whole process could begin again when elementary school started.

All the priveleges, toys, goodies and other assorted “removed carrots” will have to add up to the weight of a missing and missed mom if they’re to do any good. That’s a lot of carrots. It’s also a nice plan for when you have a sister who is a professional and willing to volunteer her help. Asking the aftercare center to do all that “extreme grounding” probably won’t wash.

So, bottom line:

1. Keep moving him to new “penitenciaries”, with his renewed vow that “they won’t never hold him”.

2. Give in, stop working, create a postponed school problem and set a dangerous precedent in his mind.

3. Make hitting others hurt him. Every day he’s learning more about how to rebel. You haven’t time for fancy stategies. End it now.

I must apologise here for my antiquated views on spanking. I know I should see the abject humilliation of being made to sit facing a wall and the psychological scarring of being excluded from every family event as better - but I just can’t. Long, blunt, unshocking punishments are abusive. The disastrous consequences of this new (for me, cowardly) thinking, adopted over the last few decades, is evident all around us. Ask Bill Cosby - children want to be spanked and have the matter forgotten.

Sounds like we can agree on one thing - strong consequences are important when violence is involved. And one other thing - stimulants can make it worse. So I think that suggests some good solutions. Brian and I will probably not agree on the finer points of either educational or disciplinary philosophy, but it’s not really necessary - the basic principles are clear: set developmentally appropriate expectations and follow up with appropriate consequences (good and bad) depending on behavioral choices. Any good plan has to start there. My experience is that many kids are raised with many different philosophies, and they turn out OK, as long as the approach is consistent, predictable, and establishes that there is a right and a wrong to behavior which transcends their momentary feelings and preferences. It is definitely time to get serious about making sure that plan is in place NOW, before he gets any older. And find out if those stimulants are contributing to the problem - they could be making a bad situation worse.

Brian,

You may be right. The boy may dislike being at school. OR it could be that the family has learned how to accomodate him so he doesn’t blow up in a way that cannot be expected by an average teacher/classroom. But you are right, he can’t get away with this or the mom will have even bigger problems on her hands.

You may be right about spanking in terms of getting it over with. But the bottom line is every family has to be comfortable with their form of punishment. I have spanked my kids but it has never been very effective. Of course, I have generally been angry so it has not been a well thought out consequence. I really don’t think it matters so much what the consequence is as much as it is applied consistently.

My son is a nice, well behaved, polite 12 year old child (well, most of the time). That is the end point we all want for our kids and I think it is important to acknowledge that there may be more than one way to get there.

Beth

First, thanks so much for your replies. I appreciate it.

Steve — I met with my son’s psychiatrist yesterday to explain what happened (he was kicked out of the private school), and we agree that he is to come off the Dexedrine, effective today. Meanwhile, she believes he may very well have, either in addition to [i]or instead of ADHD[/i] (italics mine) a developmental delay in impulse control. She has recommended a day school intervention program that lasts a week or two. Meanwhile, he is being assessed, and the non-profit progam that has been working with him contacted the state Developmental Disabilities Administration, and I will arrange to have apply to have that agency provide services for him.

Beth from FL, Victoria (and anyone else I missed)— thanks for your support. You make good points.

Brian — Actually, he does get spankings. But we stopped spanking him for hitting others because it wasn’t working. It seemed the next day was just as bad or worse. But you are on point with several things:

1. His father and I separated Oct. 2004. His behavior took a plummet and has not yet fully recovered. When Dad took a job with long hours in February/March 2005 and didn’t see the kids for three weeks, the behavior plummeted even more.

2. His sister was born in Sept. 2003, and his behavior problems started when I was 7 months pregnant and became out of control by the time the baby was 2 months old. My son has not truly recovered from that.

3. We moved in July 2004. He is still afraid to be alone in certain parts of the house and still sleeps with his light on.

4. His father and I are attempting to reconcile, so he is around a lot more. My son sees him practically every day. But the behavior has not improved much.

Today’s wrinkle(s):

His public school is refusing to take him back until the Child Find office evaluates him and determines an appropriate placement. We put in an application to transfer him, but he needs to be re-enrolled in his home school in order to be transferred. His previous aftercare, which supposedly loved him so much, after saying he could still attend on a drop-in basis, told my husband yesterday that there were no openings or drop-ins available for my son.

We’re going to have to hire an advocate and probably an attorney. This is going to get ugly. It doesn’t help that this county’s school system is the second worse in the state.

Thanks again. Perhaps my story can help someone else who may be going through this in the future.

Esmom,

If he is elgible to attend public school, isn’t he their problem? I thought Childfind was for preschool children.

I am glad you have a psychologist helping you. You clearly have your hands full with him. Does she take a behavioral approach? While you do have a long list of disruptions that may have contributed to his behavior, you want someone to help you modify his behavior not analyze its causes. Also, realize that most children with the same circumstances would not have lashed out like him. That suggests to me that he is neurologically vulnerable.

My sister, the clinical social worker, told me once that some kids require higher levels of skill to parent well. It isn’t easy, I know (2/3 of my kids are “challenging”) but the alternatives are worse.

Beth

Child Find can go up to age 21, I understand. Infants and Toddlers is the preschool program.

After I made several phone calls and emails to higher ups in the school system, the regional office told the school to re-enroll him, which my husband is doing as we speak. The school will be testing him soon, I hope, and our private psych assessment will be done and a report completed within the next couple of weeks.

We’ll be pushing for a transfer to another public school and then a placement in a private school at County expense, depending upon the testing results.

Steve,

Okay then. Let’s just continue at cross purposes- if that’s how you like your discussions. The question to you is not do you approve of, or highly rate, spanking as a disciplinary measure. The question is: would you consider using spanking if Esmom’s son was your son and the same environmental conditions applied?

Beth,

You’re right. There are many ways to skin a cat. However, I wonder if you and I see “something working or not” from the same viewpoint. My son has (hopefully) been fully conditioned to know that serious, purposeful, misbehaviors result in pain (spanking then, losses now and in the future). With all due respect to the theories proposed by psychiatrists and psychologists (all of Freud’s major theories have now been discredited and replaced with new ones - theories are ephemeral), it is my dearest hope that he has, in fact, been conditioned in that way and that it will stick with him throughout his life. It would be one of the best gifts I could have given him. A thing can only be said to be not working, or to not have worked, when the experiment has run it’s course. The experiment of raising a child well is not measured in days or weeks. Spanking doesn’t always deter the behavior (a horse might need to feel the whip every outing) but the message will have been conditioned in - which is the whole point. The message: bad behavior results in pain.

However, since, in a reasonable environment, children don’t get spanked without good reason, spanking comes to be seen as a fair, if unwelcome, response to misbehavior. On the other hand, since exclusion from others, lack of treats and inflicted humilliation, etc., may be experienced in many walks of life and are not necessarily a response to bad behavior, the child could fairly link his punishment to ideas of being unloved, unwanted or unworthy. People (esp other children) can abuse and mistreat a child for no reason; formal spanking though, is not usually their weapon of choice. I’d rather not err by electing a form of punishment that may easily be misconstrued and confused with the bad things that my child may face in the outside world. In addition I have found that you can’t say “I’m considering taking away your Nintendo for a week” with a flash of the eyes as well as you can say: “you’re in potential spanking territory mister”. Thus, when foregoing spanking, your reponse repetoire is limited to after the afct. you have nothing in your arsenal to prevent the problems escalating to a need for punishment. Good spankers probably have less incidents to deal with. Really, who would risk speed if the penalty for getting caught was an immediate and thorough spanking from the police? (Don’t get me started on my more radical ideas for adult misbehavior!)

Esmom,

There are two issues here.

1. Your boy may be hurting and confused. His lashing out may be a cry for help (a [b]true [/b]attention deficit!).

2. He has responded inappropriately to the pain he is feeling by attacking people.

Both issues have to be dealt with. First #2, then #1.

So, a good spanking with full disclosure of the offenses that brought it about. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t appear to “work”, the important thing is to make the connection in the brain: bad behavior = pain. If you have accepted that he has problems with attention, a long drawn out program isn’t going to work. You have to work within his attention span - about the length of a spanking, I’m guessing. Next, a good talk about what’s bothering him. You have to get that answer. A great place to get it is on the drive to school with the car radio switched off. Sitting in back, he’ll feel less threatened telling his woes to the back of your head. Or have him draw a house and a tree (I’ll let the psychologist earn her money by explaining to you what the result means).

Another thing that might work is linking something good to the aftercare. “After I pick you up today, we’ll go to the movies.” Have the teacher remind him of his coming treat during the day. You can change the emphasis from “being abandoned at aftercare” to “being picked up from aftercare”. Have his dad drop him off and pick him up and visit inside the class if possible. It’s amazing the pride even 4-year olds can have. [b]Everyone [/b]has to know his dad is still around and still loves him. It’s important. Forget the lawyers. An apology is far easier.

And be consistent with the spanking for purposeful bad behavior. There has to be a choice though: spanking or good times. Not just being spanked or not being spanked. That’s no real choice, as millions of prisoners who never had anything to be taken away from them as children would, no doubt, attest..

Expect a miracle. Can you imagine what he’s going to achieve when all that spirit and energy are directed toward something useful?

Sounds like a good, systematic approach, Brian. To answer your question, no, I wouldn’t personally choose spanking as an intervention. But I have no problems with others making that choice, as long as it is used consistently, fairly, and rationally as you describe. As I said, I always felt concerned that I would lose my focus once that line was crossed, and I didn’t want to start dramatizing what was done to me. But we found other ways to make behavior pay off or not pay off. I like your emphasis on the choice being between spanking and something good happening. Your own attention is the greatest reward a child can receive, and time with you should be doled out generously when good behavior is present, and dramatically restricted when bad behavior rears its ugly head. Good point about attention span, too. For any 4-year-old child, consequences have to be immediate and predictable or they don’t work.

Thanks all, especially your latest comments, Brian. It could very well be that consistent spankings may need more time to work with him, and at the same time he needs more rewards. I forgot to mention that the misbehavior is indeed for the purpose of extra one-on-one attention, and suspensions mean one-on-one time with Mommy and Daddy. I don’t think he ever felt comfortable with daycare, although he hasn’t always misbehaved there; in fact, he is still well-liked by several teachers at his first daycare (I do regret ever taking him out of that one).

Side note: my mother told me that when she tried daycare for me, briefly, I cried there daily. The provider complained bitterly and snapped at me to take my thumb out of my mouth — in front of my mother. She soon changed her schedule, pulled me out and split the childcare between herself and my much older siblings. Issue resolved with a win-win. My son is more sensitive to feeling secure in familiar settings, even more so than me, and probably has felt abandoned. That can sound like a guilt trip for the working mom, but it really isn’t.

You’re right. The bright charmer that he is, he could accomplish a lot if his spirited nature, critical thinking and precociousness are channeled in the right direction.

By the way, he’s back in the public school with his old teacher, who made a point of greeting him warmly and saying, “We missed you.” That’s a positive.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head….he is getting rewarded by his misbehavior with time with you and his father. The fact that he has a punishment—losing toys—is nothing to him. It is difficult for him to control himself (or at least more difficult that most kids) and the incentive structure rewards him for not doing so.

We had the same situation with our youngest. He can be a handful—very active. We consistently punished him but it seemed to have no effect on his behavior. We finally realized that he enjoyed getting us upset and that alone was enough reward. He is a high stimulation kid who gets a charge out of annoying people.

Until you realize what you are doing, whether intentional or not, you can’t begin to change it.

Beth

Esmom,

Whatever methods of discipline and reinforcement you personally choose, I hope it works out.

It crossed my mind that you might be able to create strategies that will reassure your son that you are, in fact, coming back for him (even if he doesn’t make it happen with his temper). Perhaps, he would be allowed to receive a phone call from you at the halfway point. Or perhaps you could give him something that you have convinced him is very important for you (e.g., buy a cheap ring and wear it for a couple of days - singing its praises in his presence), give him it when you drop him off and ask him to keep it safe until you come for him. You’ll [b]have [/b]to come back for the ring, right? It’s a little blue blankety, I know, but he may need some tangible connection to refer to when you’re not there. How wonderful to be so needed, right? I get the feeling that he might just have to get over a little hump and then he’ll be fine on his own.

These children are a blessing. They force us to do our job. We have to be inventive and resourceful or we’ll never keep up.

Good luck with the reconciliation.

I don’t totally blame the teachers. I fully blame the educational system that is failing our students and our teachers that we expect to educate our kids.
I agree, there are many teachers that “specialize” in children with LDs but I have to question their continuing education. It seems that there are always new ideas that have been tested(I do do alot of reading and research on the subjects because I have two boys that have ADD/ADHD and if I don’t keep up with what has helped others, I can’t suggest it to the teachers who don’t keep up either.
Not just teachers, though.
Classic example; when my son started fourth grade the school hired a new guidance counselor. As I have done for the last several years, I took my son to school the first day and walked him to his new class(just tradition with all my kids). I them walked myself to the guidance counselors office to fill out my request for an Intervention Team Meeting.
When I asked the “new” guidance counselor, who, by the way, had just retired after thirty years of service in another school district, if she could give me any advice or tips on what I can do to help my son succeed that year, God as my witness, she looked me dead in the eyes and said, “I don’t know how I can help you, I really don’t know much about kids with ADHD”.
How in the world in this day and age, where one out of every three kids are diagnosed with ADD/ADHD, can an elementary school hire a guidance counselor that knows nothing about what these kids are going through?
In my opinion, and this is speaking as a mother that puts her children’s education second only to their health and emotional well-being, the failure in our system is not the children, the parents or society - it is these teachers who cannot take time out of their busy schedule to educate themselves on what is going on with these kids and find it so much easier to blame the students and their parents for a true MEDICAL condition that these kids, if given the choice, would rather live without….