Wilson Questions

Your friend is right about the population for whom Wilson was designed. There IS a Wilson program called Fundations which is geared for younger children (K-3). The regular Wilson program is NOT at all appropriate with vocabulary and some methods really designed for adults (Barbara Wilson was a reading teacher for adults, I think.)

However, a statement about Orton based systems and reading progress as measured by tests. It might be awhile coming. What happens is that the kid starts at the lowest levels (the letter regular words like ‘tab, cut, rug, etc.)- considered a “closed syllable”— eventually they go to “strict, blunt, etc, which have blends, after the kid has that down you go on to longer words that use closed syllables “tablet, rabbit, magnet, etc. Then you do another kind of syllable type (like open— go, no, etc.), and combos of that student, condo, open, etc. At some point the kid will read and spell quite difficult three or even four syllable words and NOT be able to read far, car, or, everybody, sometimes, etc. that make up the brunt of what is a first and second grade reading level. The kid will eventually learn to read and spell about every word, as most of English is much more regular than people believe. So, in fact, the WADE is prob. the best test of his progress right now, as this is Wilson based. While using an Orton based system, your child should not be reading non-decodable text where he has to guess at words as this will reinforce bad habits. The combination of sounds in “keep” is actually a little further donw in the program than “yep”. He is likely confusing a familar sight word with a word he would have to sound out like “yep”. The other errors sound like guessing in nondecodable text . Decodable text will only cover rules and patterns in stuff that he has already worked on. So you might look up some of that, so he can be successful in his reading experiences. YOu do need to read to him for now in anything remotely grade level or higher as his intelligence allows.

The two day overview is only about 10 hours of training. I have heard some people say that they can teach with it and others no. Here in ABQ, they are actually trying to certify people but way more are needed than actually sign up.Wilson is a program which is not really designed for kids his age. Without significant adaptations, I don’t think it can really be used. It focuses a lot on some types of cognitive skills that don’t really come until later. 2.5 is pretty slow after all the tutoring he is getting, unless he is in rather large groups. Generally one expects to get to about Level 4-6 (2.5 is NOT remarkable progress) in the first year of tutoring, though everyone is different.

Programs more geared to younger kids would include but not be limited to Wilsons’ Fundations, Jolly Phonics, SPIRE, etc.
Explode the Code or Phonographix might be useful as well, though not OG based and may not be multisensory enough.

* level 2.5 means he can read and spell closed syllable words; add “s” to make plurals; read and spells words with blends; knows some types of welds “ost” as in host, “olt” as in colt. He has not been introduced to two syllable words, words with silent es “name, tone, pine”; etc.

I think you are NOT being unreasonable, esp. if the teacher thinks that this is great progress. After so much intervention, he should be reading multisyllable words and words with silent e’s at the very least. Unless he has severe auditory problems, it is likely the problem is training of the teacher and/ or inappropriateness of the program for the age level of your child. You can go to Wilson language (http://www.wilsonlanguage.com) and they will say who the program is for, ages, etc. I’m sure that a less than well trained teacher is less able to adapt the program as well.

—des

Thanks Des, It’s good to know I’m not being unreasonable. Could you also respond to the fact that he improved in his reading scores (Woodcock-Johnson 3)? He was at a below average level before Wilson a year and a half ago, was in the last stage of a primer level at the end of this school year, and low and behold after 3:1 Wilson this summer (I also had a private person working with him too) his reading went up to the middle of the average range in the Woodcock retesting. How can that be?

Since they tell me he’s in 2.5 could he possibly be able to score in the middle of the average range at the end of second grade?

Also, why does he still read keep as yep, was as so, the as that, and has as was?

Why does he rely on the pictures to comprehend text if he’s an average reading student?

Why if he is average did the Spelling of Sounds go from low average to deficient?

I asked them about Fundations and they said they adapted the Wilson to meet his needs and that the improved Woodcock proves they are doing their job. They won’t even think about Fundations now because he’s 9 years old.

I guess the bottom line is I don’t really believe he’s reading as well as the Woodcock says he is. I feel like getting him tested by someone else to see if there is a big difference or calm my suspicions.

Thanks again,

CG

Carol,

Many children with reading difficulties misread the small words. One thing that helps that is oral reading with immediate error correction. Point to the error, have the child correct it if he can, then have him reread the sentence. If they know they will have to reread, they start being more careful.

It takes very little to get Woodcock-Johnson III scores to rise. If you teach a decent decoding program, it is easy to get a two year gain in just 3-6 months of intruction. It’s just that the WJIII doesn’t mean a lot in the early grades because it scores high. So yes, he certainly could have made the gains you mention. It is harder to explain the drops in scores. I can only think that something like attention could be a factor.

And Wilson is appropriate for a 9 year old. I take it your son has repeated a grade or started a year late to be going into third grade and already 9. I agree that it will be interesting to see the WADE scores to be sure he is properly placed in the program. You may want to get him tested with the Gray Oral Reading Test. The scores will be more indicative of how he is functioning than the WJIII.

Janis

Ok Wilson is approp. for a nine year old (I was thinking he was younger I guess), though barely. Why he was doing it for a year and half, unless they adapted it a LOT…

Janis did a good job of explaining errors in small words. It is possible he doesn’t even know “keep” so he is going back to the habit of guessing when he gets to an unfamilar word. He should not be reading uncontrolled text at this point. Either he should read decodable text lined up with Wilson or not read. You should read the age approp. text for him and ask him questions for comprehension. (“Keep” wouldn’t be introducted til later).

Yes, he made progress. I think what you are looking for is progress on the WADE as it lines up with what they are teaching him. The Woodcock goes according to normal sequence programs that they use in typical school programs. In OG, a word like “car” and “owl” and “bread” though easy, are considered harder as they deal with word patterns that are tricky to spell and possibly confusing (sometimes having multiple sounds as in the case of “bread”). The sequence is orderly and logical but doesn’t always follow these standardized tests. (Lately Wilson has a standardized test that follows usual OG patterns, but I don’t think it is widely used yet.)
Still there will be some improvement in Woodcock, it isn’t entirely outside what he is doing there— hence the progress on the Woodcock. He is also no doubt hearing sounds a lot better, since he is he may be able to figure out word patterns he has yet to be introduced to. Also he will be able to read some things beyond his grade level. For example, he might be able to read blends and so on that are really introduced later in the usual school programs.

He prob. relies on pictures because prior to Wilson he needed to. By using decodable text you get rid of those cues.

I think 2.5 is the level in Wilson, not a grade level. Wilson like all OG programs is not graded in the usual way. 2.5 means that he can read and spell any three letter word with a vowel in the middle; reads and spells blends and digraphs; reads and spells words with “welds” like “ink”, “ost”, “old”, “olt, etc. So he is not really functioning like a normal 2nd grader in reading. By level 3.0 he should be reading multisyllable words, etc.

I think he is making fairly slow progress but I am used to seeing the progress of older kids, so for all I know this may be typical. I had a kid with severe auditory problems about that age in private practice that did about the same in 1 year 3 days a week— but it was private practice and one on one. (They kind of are forced to follow the progress of the lower levels of students in groups.) I felt he made less progress than usual due to his auditory problems but I have heard age is a factor in all this.

—des

The reading level you describe certainly sounds inappropriate for a 9yo, no matter what the test results show in terms of gain. Instead of spending time and energy fighting the school, I would suggest taking matters into your own hands and working with your son at home.

The Sound Reading CD from http://www.soundreading.com can be very helpful (up to about a 3rd grade reading level) and can be done independently once the child understands how it works.

I would also work with him starting with Set 1 of the “Little Books” — http://www.usu.edu/teach/LittleBooks.htm (but the early sets are less expensive at http://www.roadstoeverywhere.com/3RsPlusRead.html ). These are very graduated readers that can be *very* helpful in developing good decoding skills and reading fluency — again up to about a 3rd grade level. Basically you have the child read a book twice with two errors or less before moving on to the next book in the set.

To understand how to do error correction with the readers, get a copy of “Reading Reflex” by McGuiness and read the first three chapters. (You can also give the assessments in the book to get a good idea of where your son actually is with reading.) Libraries often have this book. Otherwise it is available from most bookstores for under $20. I would suggest using the approach in this book, but it might be too different from the Wilson instruction your son is getting in school.

Nancy

Though I don’t think the Sound Reading CD or the Little books would be too confusing. I’d go for it.

One on one would be good too.

—des

I wouldn’t make any rash judgements of appropriate reading level without knowing more about a kiddo’s wiring.

I’ve worked with severely dyslexic students for whom that *would* be excellent progress.

I have taught mostly older students, but I have noticed at those lower levels (1-3rd grade reading levels) that many reasonably bright kids with (or without) severe dyslexia can grab enough sight words and use their wits to improve to second or third grade level. It’s encouraging - but then my severely dyslexic students will often hit a plateau because of the sequencing issues Des described; the reading tests use a random collection of words (the WRAT especially; it’s *full* of hopelessly irregular ones) that have little correlation to the sequence of skills taught in O-G programs.

That said, though, these kiddos will test out as “average” (at that third grade level) even if their fluency at that level is abysmal. They just had to be accurate, not fluent. However, most tests will show the same raw numbers; it takes a good interpreter of the testing situation to ferret out underlying problems.

Yeah, Sue I thought she was saying the kid reached step 2.5 in Wilson, not that he had tested at grade 2.5. I think the actual step he reached in Wilson is actually a bit more indicative of progress than anything. I practically have kids on what would be step 2.3 now. So that’s what I was thinking of. I get the feeling now that we are talking about two different things.

So mom of the kid on Wilson, I would suggest using decodable text (according to how he is on Wilson). There are several other OG programs with a little better text than Wilson has (imo). Another thing is to look at how he is doing on the WADE— this follows the Wilson sequence.
Basically he is doing closed syllables first, reads multiple syllable words with closed syllables before going on to other syllable types. He may really read a lot harder stuff than you are aware of, and yet be unable to read some 1-2 second grade stuff, which will depend on high amounts of “sight vocabulary” which Wilson won’t do.

Do you know what step he is on? His teacher should know this.

—des

I am a teacher with Orton-Gillingham training who uses materials from many sources, including Wilson Language and SPIRE. I have had a 2-day training somewhere along the line on Wilson but I was already using it very successfully with just my Orton-Gillingham and Lindamood-Bell training.

So, I think the effects of teaching depend more on overall teaching methods training than in training on materials. Now, in the absence of methods training, training on materials would be essential in order to use them effectively. (I also am going to tell you that few public schools will allow their teachers to be questioned about educational background and methods training. If they’re certified to teach what they teach, that is qualification enough… In fact, even if one teacher is expertly trained, they don’t want it known because then it may be assumed that everyone should be so.)

That being said, I will tell you my experience with Wilson and other programs in teaching struggling primary grade readers: I have used Wilson but I only use 1-2 syllable words. Young students just aren’t ready yet for the depth of vocabulary offered, nor for the pace of instruction so I slow that down, too. I prefer the SPIRE scope & sequence and use it with kids through grade 3. SPIRE is the same methodology (basically) and the stories are written for younger students. The Wilson stories are written for older kids and adults. IMy primary students had a difficult time relating to them and I found my self supplementing. I’m wondering if the teachers are just using the word lists with other reading materials…

Wilson and SPIRE are both awesome programs and I own hundreds of dollars in materials from each of them—so don’t think I’m downing anyone. I haven’t used Fundations, but am sure it would also be good because Barbara and Ed Wilson are totally gifted teachers of reading and developers of materials!

My own son would not have learned to read without my access to Wilson Language. It gave me the structure to help him when no one in public school seemed to know what to do. That was 15 years ago and I have since become a reading teacher, inspired to help other kids learn, too. After I go essential training in word-level issues through LmB and O-G, I had to get certified to teach in public school.

I am a teacher with Orton-Gillingham training who uses materials from many sources, including Wilson Language and SPIRE. I have had a 2-day training somewhere along the line on Wilson but I was already using it very successfully with just my Orton-Gillingham and Lindamood-Bell training.

So, I think the effects of teaching depend more on overall teaching methods training than in training on materials. Now, in the absence of methods training, training on materials would be essential in order to use them effectively. (I also am going to tell you that few public schools will allow their teachers to be questioned about educational background and methods training. If they’re certified to teach what they teach, that is qualification enough… In fact, even if one teacher is expertly trained, they don’t want it known because then it may be assumed that everyone should be so.)

That being said, I will tell you my experience with Wilson and other programs in teaching struggling primary grade readers: I have used Wilson but I only use 1-2 syllable words. Young students just aren’t ready yet for the depth of vocabulary offered, nor for the pace of instruction so I slow that down, too. I prefer the SPIRE scope & sequence and use it with kids through grade 3. SPIRE is the same methodology (basically) and the stories are written for younger students. The Wilson stories are written for older kids and adults. IMy primary students had a difficult time relating to them and I found my self supplementing. I’m wondering if the teachers are just using the word lists with other reading materials…

Wilson and SPIRE are both awesome programs and I own hundreds of dollars in materials from each of them—so don’t think I’m downing anyone. I haven’t used Fundations, but am sure it would also be good because Barbara and Ed Wilson are totally gifted teachers of reading and developers of materials!

My own son would not have learned to read without my access to Wilson Language. It gave me the structure to help him when no one in public school seemed to know what to do. That was 15 years ago and I have since become a reading teacher, inspired to help other kids learn, too. After I go essential training in word-level issues through LmB and O-G, I had to get certified to teach in public school.

Susan,

It is awfully good to see you back on here! I have really missed seeing your posts!

Ironically, I picked up a low level of Spire in the last couple of weeks as I didn’t have much for absolute beginners (Sounds Sensible). Have you used that level, and if so, do you like it?

By any chance are you going to IDA in Denver next week?

Janis

I put a private message to you about IDA and Sounds Sensible as I didn’t want to take up forum space with my public school ramblings and rantings.

Do they email you when you have a message or do you just have to log on and check. I’m so not used to this forum. I’m used to being able to read the threads and look for interesting & funny ones.