IQ

My daughter had a similar reading profile at age 9 — comprehension much higher than ability to decode (Gray). A complete speech and language evaluation concluded that she used her “impressive receptive language skills” to compensate for her “severely disordered phonological awareness”. In other words, she was a brilliant guesser.

What worked for us was a combination of vision therapy, PACE (http://www.learninginfo.com), and Phono-Graphix (http://www.readamerica.net).

What I would recommend that you try first is Phono-Graphix — either through a certified tutor, or by using the book “Reading Reflex” at home. This is an excellent (and fast!) way to teach decoding skills. “Reading Reflex” is about $16 at most bookstores.

I would also recommend that you do some cognitive training to develop short-term memory skills. PACE is very expensive, but Audiblox is a good home-based alternative (http://www.audiblox2000.com). Both develop a wide variety of cognitive skills that help with reading.

You might also want to consider getting a developmental vision evaluation, which assesses about 20 functional vision skills not tested in a regular eye exam. We found that our daughter scored all over the place on the developmental vision evaluation — 99th percentile in some areas (such as visual closure) but 1st percentile in others (such as focusing speed). You can find out more at http://www.childrensvision.com

You may also want to read about CAPD (central auditory processing disorder) to see if your daughter fits the profile for that. A good website with information is http://pages.cthome.net/cbristol/

Mary

Hi Mary
Thanks for the advice. My daughter is 16yrs old. (grade 11) She did do a reading accelerated program which was phonics based over the summer. Her reading ability only went up one year. She said it was childish and she knew her vowels. So motivation was a problem.
I don’t think she really knows all the vowels. When she reads double syllible words she tries to guess the word and then when she has to actually work it out she will do it with lots of prompting. She also spells words like – dose for does and rack for rake.
When she reads she has to use a ruler under the line otherwise she skips words. Once she uses the ruler her reading improves. She is very slow even when reading to herself. At this age can she still be guessing so accurately.?? Would books on tape be effective . Then she can hear it and follow along in books?

Would these programs you suggested be good for a student of this age?.
Is the Reading Reflux phonics.?
I noticed on this site the sequential spelling has been suggested what do you think.?
I looked at the CAPD site and she does have some things for example she did have delayed speech when small and she did go to a speech therapists. At school the teacher helping her says she pronounces some words differently.
She could fall into the Auditory decoding deficit.

Why does this not affect her math eg multiplications. She is very good in this subject and will finish her grad 12 math this year ( she’s ahead 1 year) and loves Chemistry and Physics. She also gets in the high 90’s for these subjects.

I will look at the audiblox site and see if that is helpful

I have given you lots of questions to answer as I feel so confused as to how to help.
Thanks again for your help

She did the test on audiblox to tell how she learns. Auditory 23
Visual 16
She is a sequential, reflective,verbral,sensing learner.
Now I am really confused.

take her in for a developmental vision evaluation right away. The fact that she needs a ruler to keep her eyes on track is a real red flag for developmental vision delays. Website with a search engine to locate developmental optometrists in your area is http://www.covd.org.

“Reading Reflex” would still be of use to her. It has been used successfully to remediate teens and adults. RR is not a traditional phonics approach to reading, in that it does not use “rules” at all. It uses a sound-to-sight approach which has a good foundation in research.

I would hold off on the Audiblox until you get the results of the vision eval.

It really does not sound like an auditory disorder to me, but rather a visual processing problem. I would at least rule that out before exploring other avenues of remediation.

Following along with books-on-tape won’t help much if it’s a developmental vision problem. That is more helpful for developing fluency, once basic decoding skills are in place. It really sounds as if she doesn’t have the basic decoding skills where they need to be yet.

Mary

p.s. Don’t assume that an opthalmologist will know about developmental vision problems. Ours didn’t!

Bev, It’s often really hard to get a kid your daughter’s age motivated enough to follow any of these programs, particularly working with their parents. I’d strongly suggest that whatever program you use, be sure she’s willing to commit herself to it. I’d make sure it’s done through a tutor rather than yourself unless you’re a homeschooler in which case she’s accustomed to you as her teacher.

I concur with MaryMN about your daughter needing a full vision screening with a behavioral optometrist before enrolling her into any program. If she has tracking problems, for instance, that would completely interfere with her ability to read.

Teenagers with poor reading skills have usually beaten themselves up about it and have lost the motivation to even try. They’re embarrassed and spend lots of time hiding their deficits from others.

It’s true of anybody, really, but especially true of teens that the best way to remediate is by using a really intensive program. I like Lindamood-Bell’s programs for that reason. If you could afford it, the very best idea would be to take her to one of their regional centers. In 6 weeks over the summer, she could make great progress (it’s VERY intensive) but again, only if she had the motivation to do it. I keep stressing this because of the history of most teens her age who feel so hopeless about acquiring skills.

By the time they’re that age, they’ve been tested umpteen times, been told this or that program will work, and then when it only produces modest results, they become skeptical of further programs. So I like to think that if you’re going to try yet another program, do a top-of-the-line one and get it over with.

But before doing anything, get her two consultations: one with a developmental (some use the term behavorial) optometrist and one with an with an audiologist.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will look into a behavioural op. I know she will not do another summer reading program again as she felt it was a waste of time and became very angry.
I think I will try the Reflux reading because I can eliminate what she knows and reinforce what she does not know. ( eg.long vowels)Can you do that with this program. ?
I was also thinking of using the sequential spelling program from Avko to help with the reading also ?. Then she can read and spell at the same time. It’s the big words that she has the most dificulty decoding. I have to make it grown up other wise she will not do . Any suggestions??

She has very little problems with comprehension when she reads independently they said her level of independence grade 9 .
Grade 10 she became frustrated and she is in grade 11. So she is a little behind but I am sure it’s the reading factor. If she is given the work orally or they have discussions she can no problem with recall. Her recall on facts are unbelievable and she is able to transfer this information from one topic to another. On multiple choice exams she get’s one or two wrong in most subjects. They tape the exam for mutiple choice and they use a scribe to write her essays.
So if recall is so good why can’t she remeber her vowels and spell . It’s amazing how she can be so mixed
I guess the question is should I just give up and try to let her use technology , scribes, tapes at College. ? But what about when she gets to the work force?
Thanks for all your help

It sounds like she has been memorizing words and she knows some of the “spelling rules” but doesn’t apply them. I like sequential spelling, it sounds like your daughter likes patterns she would probably like sequential spellling.

THere is also a good book called “Never Too Late To Read” by Ann Tuley, that is designed for bright older students who have “holes” in what they know. It involves setting up a notebook and working with what the student already knows… it’s also basically what I did with my private school kiddos, so if you wanted to give it a shot and had questions, I could help :) It might solve the “I already know this” issue.

Thanks again. I think you are both right . She has holes in what she knows that how I see it too. ( good description) I will try to get that book you mentioned. Could you tell me a little more about how this book works before I buy ? Did you find quick results with the kids you used it on. It is so wonderful to get suggestions so quickly. How did we ever do with out internet. Thanks again

the test? It could not have been an Audiblox test, since there is *no* test on the Audiblox website.

If you go to audiblox . go down the first page till you get to the topic Learning Principle- More important than learning style. Click on the picture then go to bottom of this page and you will see -Index of learning Style question and under it Learning Styles if you click on these they have the questions I am referring to. Hope that helps

Well, here’s how I set things up.

I have a three ring binder. The first section is for the phonics work. Every day we spend a few minutes learning the next phonics pattern — start the day with a *very* quick drill of something oldy-moldy that I *know* the kid knows pat (but if she doesn’t then we go back over it :)) — like a ten-index-card deck of common syllables… pre, co, cu, di, qui, smo, fla to review “open syllables” (so you’d say the long vowel sound — helps with that tendency to say “quite” for “quiet”).
Then we’d spend 5 or 10 minutes on whatever the next step in the phonics pattern was (and the book explains a good sequence to use). You at least *touch* on all of them once but obviously it’s moving-right-along if she knows ‘em.
Then 5 or10 minutes on spelling…
Then a quick review of the words on the personal word lists, some of which are from phonics patterns and some of which are from the oral reading; then
oral reading for 10-15 minutes (these times are also *highly* adjustable depending on what the kiddo needs work on) where we’re trading paragraphs in a book that’s usually pretty challenging because it should be at the kiddo’s interest level so it’s usually not an ‘easy reader.” We trade paragraphs and follow along toegher with a pencil. “Penciling” is a really neat teaching/learning strategy that means you don’t lose the story but you *do* get to correct errors and keep track of them, *and* teach her good as-you’re-reading strategies. Then I pluck a few words that were missed in the reading of that day, generally good common words that we’re not going to get to real soon in the phonics part (especially if it’s something like ‘against’ that doesn’t follow the phonics part ;)), and they go on the personal word list.
That word list is the most obvious instant-progress barometer for the student — you read those words every day until you’ve gotten ‘em right five times in a row, then star them and they can go into a review deck to do as a “drill” now and then. YOu also make word lists based on the patterns that even those irregular words follow — so if “dread” comes up, you’ll make a list that has “dread” and bread and instead and breakfast and steadfast — and of course you’re picking words that make sense for *your* kid (I always put a couple of really familiar words in there if there are any, and then other newer ones so that whole “baby” argument just doesn’t fly.)

I also deal with resistance sometimes by just exerting power — to a point. I tell a kiddo that I am totally confident that what we’re doing is going to help — but that I do understand that hey, I have never taught *that* kid before. So I want to know what works and what doesn’t work — but some things *do* take a while to work, so we’re going to plow through things for a few weeks at least before I start making compromises. Usually in a couple of weeks the kiddo is seeing progress (at least in the personal word list, but generally they have started seeing the logic of reading and how it isn’t as crazy or impossible as they thought), and we’ve just gotten into a routine — and *nothing* that we do takes more than a few minutes.

This is a really quick sketch — the book goes into mroe details. Actually I have an easier, quicker version of the oral reading part for sale at my site — it’s got the pencil reading and the word list development spelled out in a booklet, with some other bits of advice on reading with your kid. That would just involve picking a good book and spending 20-30 minutes max (shorter and it just takes forever to get through a book!) reading a fun book wiht your kid.

Oh dear!!! My secrets are all exposed!!!

one’s preferred learning style, not strengths and weaknesses.

I have suspected for some time!!!!

Thanks for all the information. I will get the book you suggested and see how things go.
Realistically how long does it take (if ever) to see improvement when using this method.? She only has one more year before College.
You mentioned you help College students with LD. How does a student like my daughter survive at College?. I have heard only 2% LD students will graduate. What have you found helps these students??
I promise no one will know your secret identity from me.(HA HA)
Thanks again

Give me an hour or two with her, and even then I could only hazard a guess (unless she’s extremely dyslexic).

I can say that if you try this she’ll be reading better.

For folks who do okay with simpler words but are stuck with the multisyllable ones, there’s a book called “word workshop” that does a good job of teaching word attack strategies for high school & college level words.

There’s a lot tied into that 2% graduation rate. I have an article around here somewhere that took lots of data — I do remember that a higher verbal part of the IQ was a good indicator of better odds for success, as well as some of the more obvious factors like having good self-advocacy skills.

Most of my students are really struggling and I doubt they’ll graduate. In my observation, students who come to the task having sat through a couple years of high school learning to be invisible have a really tough time maknig the transition to being a responsible learner. There’s a real emotional threshold for lots of these kids — they are still in “I have to go to school and the teacher is going to make me do stupid things” mode. So they try to figure out how to get ten sentences in a paragraph because that is the guideline the teacher gave them, but they have no earthly idea about how to communicate with their writing, whether or not they have vocabulary or grammar skills. (Vocabulary is a *huge* deficit. IF you can work on that…)

I noticed ol’ Bill Gates is trying to get a bunch of schools “for the disadvantaged” started, on the grounds that the last two years of high school are pretty much wasted, so they might as well be taking college courses. I really have to agree with the principle. OUr students are showing up with sixth grade skills, and from my HS teaching experience, they have had those skills since about eighth grade. (Bill wants to have these kids get their AA degrees — well, hes’ gonna have to teach ‘em to read first!)

Actually, though, looking at the Gray scores — those are consistent w/ a couple of students I’ve had. A good year’s work made a huge difference because their comprehension was already pretty good. It sounds like your daughter has real strengths — not just hidden in those IQ tests, either — so filling in this little canyon could really open doors and possibilities. And if she wanted to come to college in Illinois we’re working on a good developmental program :)

Thanks Sue
At least she has a fighting chance since her verbral scores are high.
I have not mention she also has written expressive disorder, so this could be a problem. Her spelling of course major problem and sentence structure. The report said writing sample performance average in each category 37% , content age and grade approp. but difficult to read because of spelling and mechanics of sentence usage and punctuation. The school has been working with her on that but it is slow. She now has a lap top to write her work and that helps to a point. They say she seems to understand when mistakes pointed out, but the next day does the same mistake over again. If she dictates to a scribe she seems to have better results.
She really likes having a tape of her exams .I thought books on tape would be good for University. I also intend on getting her a digital tape recorder to tape lectures. The university she is considering has lap top computers so she can down load the lectures . She has dragon but the training has been slow as it makes lots of mistakes and she hates using it. I will work with her again to see if she can use it.
I know she will work with me in the summer and thats why I am asking all these questions. Got to get organized .
Yep would be nice to have her see you but we are not lucky to live close by . We live in Canada.
Thanks again

I’m presently in Montreal. Am I close enough to help, or are you our poster in Vancouver?

Old story: in World War II, a family evacuated their children from London for safety, sending them to Canada to stay with an aunt and uncle. Having the British idea of geographic scale, they telegraphed — Children arriving Halifax Monday 10AM; please meet them.
The Canadian family telegraphed back from Vancouver — Meet them yourselves, you’re closer than we are.

Find her a really good one-to-one tutor. Best, most cost-effective thing you can do.

Sometimes the college provides tutors, and on rare occasions they may be really good. However in the other 99% of cases you’re better finding someone private on your own.

Having support for both learning academic skills and mentoring in how to navigate college can make all the difference in the world.

I’ve shepherded a large number of non-traditional students through college and university — a former high school dropout going back to scientific calculus and computer science grad school, a non-academically oriented football player getting a respectable biology degree, a learning-disabled girl who started failing my class but got help from DSS and moved to B+ work in college algebra, a Peruvian immigrant labourer working through calculus and engineering, a number of former math phobics getting interested in their required class and finally having the impetus to succeed, and so on.

It costs a lot of money to have a tutor three times a week, but the total is less than failing a year or two of college.

The worst incident of LD at college I can remember was a student who was very angry in my class because *I* failed him on a test (his work apparently being irrelevant) and who insisted on spending the class reading his text instead of participating because “that’s how he learns best”. He said he had been homeschooled and had learned wonderfully on his own. I agreed wholeheartedly when he transferred to a class with a different instructor. Just out of interest I looked up his marks at the end of the semester — three F’s, and a D from the second math instructor whom he’d played for sympathy. Morals of the story: students have to adapt to college; you may be mistaken in how you should learn, and should keep an open mind; and self-esteem is nice but you need skills to hold it up.
If this student had been able to climb down off his pride for a bit, the DSS and college tutors could have helped him as they helped the other LD student.

Yes we are out West .