What's "intensive" PG? Also, questions about Adva

A Phono-Graphix intensive is a one-week course at a PG training center, working one-on-one with a certified PG tutor. My daughter did this when she was 10yo. She worked from 9:00 - 12:00 with her tutor (except they took a half-hour break every day). It worked out to a total of about 12 hours of intensive work in the week. My daughter’s Woodcock-Johnson pre-test scores were grade 3.4 in word ID, grade 2.9 in word attack. Her post-test scores at the end of the week’s intensive were grade 5.8 in word ID, 12.7 in word attack. These were above-average gains for the intensive. The clinic has something like a 98% success rate in bringing a child up to grade level. (It really hurts if your child is in the 2% category, though!)

I ended up taking the certification training while my daughter was in the intensive. It was an interesting week!

There is no set time period for anything in PG. One of the things that makes it effective is adjusting to the needs of the individual child.

In terms of proficiency, a child needs only about 80% accuracy on a sound before moving on. I personally would not do word analysis on all previous lists. Instead, I would spend more time on reading regular text. The PG stories are kept purposely inane to encourage parents and students to use real texts as much as possible.

One suggestion I would make is to be sure that the font size and spacing in the text you use is good. Look for books that have a large, clear font with lines not too close together.

For reading in text, one technique that has helped me is to use a mechanical pencil (lead retracted) above the words, as a visual cue. Basically, you point to the sound or word the child is working on, going at the speed of the child. If he makes a mistake, you keep your pencil point on the sound picture or word, or you circle it. This cues him to correct his mistake. The goal is to eventually have that pencil tip moving smoothly across the top of the line of text. At first, though, you may have to stop on every word, or on every sound picture in multi-syllable words. This may be all your son needs.

You don’t mention his age. If he’s 7 or older, I would recommend taking him to a developmental optometrist for evaluation. Some children have functional vision problems that make tracking difficult. Some experience visual confusion when a word is surrounded by other words. Developmental vision delays are not tested in regular eye exams. You can find more information at http://www.childrensvision.com. You can find developmental optometrists in your area at http://www.covd.org.

Some children with developmental vision delays also benefit greatly from cognitive training (which works on visual processing and sequential processing skills, among other things). PACE (Processing and Cognitive Enhancement, http://www.learninginfo.com) and Audiblox (http://www.audiblox2000.com) are two cognitive training programs that work on these skills. Both programs assume there are not serious developmental vision delays, though, so ideally that would be checked out first.

In the original PG research study, there were a few children who did not make gains as expected. They were all referred for developmental vision evaluation, they all went through vision therapy, and then they all returned to the PG program and made the gains that had been expected.

Mary

Mary, I think that’s very good advice. I will look further into vision & cognitive therapy. Thank you!!! :-)

Dear Laura, Before you look into other programs, give your child time to finish PG and practice reading. Being able to read is so necessary to our children’s future and we are in such a hurry to see massive results over night that we go from program to program to get those results that we forget that reading is a skill and needs to be practiced. You haven’t said how old your child is. This is important because PG can be delivered faster for older children than small. I teach mainly older children. When I am done teaching PG and put the students into their literature book and have them read, it is like I haven’t done anything. I expect this because of the poor reading habits that they have, and we have taught them! These habits are, skipping words going to the end of the sentence and guess and overdependence of context cues. I don’t have the students read anything but the stories in PG until I am done with the entire program. My reasoning is that they should be aware of all of the choices for all the sounds and multi-sullable work before they do any serious reading. Again, this changes with the age of the child. I do use the books that Wilson puts out for older students during the program, they are great resourses. Each story stresses a sound using all of the choices. If you could let me know how old your child is, I could help you more. Don’t forget that Read America has a bulletin board that will help you if you have questions.

Hi Mary,

You wrote “in the original PG research study, there were a few children who did not make gains as expected. They were all referred for developmental vision evaluation, they all went through vision therapy, and then they all returned to the PG program and made the gains that had been expected.”

This is the first time I’ve ever heard this. I don’t recall seeing it mentioned in the study results that were published. Where did you hear it? I happen to agree with you on the importance of vision therapy, but I’m skeptical about whether what you state above actually happened. I know the study report indicated that a few kids were referred on to vision therapy, but that’s about as far as it went, as I recall….Thanks….Rod

Hi Shay,
My son is 8 next month and I do plan to continue with PG. I think it’s one of the better methods for teaching reading that I’ve come across, but I am beginning to suspect some possible visual problems. I’ve worked with my son on reading for three years now (not as intensively when he was younger, but increasingly over time). —Although I started both my children on books and reading from birth so you might say we’ve been working on reading for much longer ;-)

You wrote,”When I am done teaching PG and put the students into their literature book and have them read, it is like I haven’t done anything.” I’m curious. In breaking your students of these poor reading habits, in general, approximately how long does it take to break these habits? How do you help them correct this? Do you think there’s such a thing as bad visual habits?

What amount of time would you suggest for “intensive PG”? I have my son home for the month and am trying to pack in as much reading remediation as possible. Of course, I’m also planning to work with him quite intensively over the summer.

Thank you for sharing with me how you use this program!

Mary,

I am looking into taking my son to Orlando to have the phonographix intense one week session. I have found out it costs $750 . I am in Nj is it worth the trip? I would go if I could get some feedback from other s Please tell me you r opinion.

LisaMaryMN wrote:
>
> A Phono-Graphix intensive is a one-week course at a PG
> training center, working one-on-one with a certified PG
> tutor. My daughter did this when she was 10yo. She worked
> from 9:00 - 12:00 with her tutor (except they took a
> half-hour break every day). It worked out to a total of
> about 12 hours of intensive work in the week. My daughter’s
> Woodcock-Johnson pre-test scores were grade 3.4 in word ID,
> grade 2.9 in word attack. Her post-test scores at the end of
> the week’s intensive were grade 5.8 in word ID, 12.7 in word
> attack. These were above-average gains for the intensive.
> The clinic has something like a 98% success rate in bringing
> a child up to grade level. (It really hurts if your child is
> in the 2% category, though!)
>
> I ended up taking the certification training while my
> daughter was in the intensive. It was an interesting week!
>
> There is no set time period for anything in PG. One of the
> things that makes it effective is adjusting to the needs of
> the individual child.
>
> In terms of proficiency, a child needs only about 80%
> accuracy on a sound before moving on. I personally would not
> do word analysis on all previous lists. Instead, I would
> spend more time on reading regular text. The PG stories are
> kept purposely inane to encourage parents and students to use
> real texts as much as possible.
>
> One suggestion I would make is to be sure that the font size
> and spacing in the text you use is good. Look for books that
> have a large, clear font with lines not too close together.
>
> For reading in text, one technique that has helped me is to
> use a mechanical pencil (lead retracted) above the words, as
> a visual cue. Basically, you point to the sound or word the
> child is working on, going at the speed of the child. If he
> makes a mistake, you keep your pencil point on the sound
> picture or word, or you circle it. This cues him to correct
> his mistake. The goal is to eventually have that pencil tip
> moving smoothly across the top of the line of text. At
> first, though, you may have to stop on every word, or on
> every sound picture in multi-syllable words. This may be all
> your son needs.
>
> You don’t mention his age. If he’s 7 or older, I would
> recommend taking him to a developmental optometrist for
> evaluation. Some children have functional vision problems
> that make tracking difficult. Some experience visual
> confusion when a word is surrounded by other words.
> Developmental vision delays are not tested in regular eye
> exams. You can find more information at
> http://www.childrensvision.com. You can find developmental
> optometrists in your area at http://www.covd.org.
>
> Some children with developmental vision delays also benefit
> greatly from cognitive training (which works on visual
> processing and sequential processing skills, among other
> things). PACE (Processing and Cognitive Enhancement,
> http://www.learninginfo.com) and Audiblox
> (http://www.audiblox2000.com) are two cognitive training
> programs that work on these skills. Both programs assume
> there are not serious developmental vision delays, though, so
> ideally that would be checked out first.
>
> In the original PG research study, there were a few children
> who did not make gains as expected. They were all referred
> for developmental vision evaluation, they all went through
> vision therapy, and then they all returned to the PG program
> and made the gains that had been expected.
>
> Mary

Hi Laura, I think that the best part of the program, besides how it presents the advanced code and MS words, is the error corrections part. I think that this part of the program doesn’t get enough emphasis. When the program is over and the students understands at least 80% of the sound representations, as I said, I put them into their literature books. I also, at the beginning of the program, tell them that when we are done, he is going to read from the literature book and I am going to help them correct every error that they make. Now, 9th graders I put into the 11th grade books because I like to start with a certain author, Edgar Allen Poe! The reasons that I like Poe is that he uses soooo many MS words and I have to “look up” some of the words to make sure of the pronunciation. I do this so that I can model to the students that it is okay not to know how to pronounce some words and they will do this for the rest of their life and it doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with their reading. I profess, to the students, that I have to use the dictionary often and I keep it near my computer. I find that the students feel more secure in their reading when they know it is okay to make mistakes in decoding and that while we are practicing our reading, we are not going to worry about content, just improving our decoding skills. I also tell them that this exercise helps them correct their bad reading habits that we taught them. Each child reads a paragraph out loud while the rest of the students follow along in their books. I help the child correct every error in a word that he makes. I emphasis help correct, you don’t tell him the word. It may go like this, the student makes an error, I say the ‘chunk’ (syllable) that he said correctly, he goes back to that part and looks at the next chunk, I then give him hints like, Remember what sound ‘oe’ represents? What I am doing is jogging his memory. I give him time and he generally comes up with the sound, if he doesn’t, I then give it to him or have one of the other students give it to him. You know that the students are improving when you hear all of them muttering to themselves the words and they are anxious to help their fellow classmates. Remember to be patient. I hope you can understand this, it is very hard to explain, you just have to do it, to understand it. If someone can explain it better, give it a shot! It depends on how severe the reading problem is as to the time that it takes to see improvement. I think that we as Americans want a quick fix for everything. Be patient and let the kids practice their reading. They have a lot to make up. They have to practice their reading and every student is different. Just remember, the ability to decode words, (phonics and phoneme awareness) takes awhile. By teaching this way, you are acturally ‘training’ nerve cells to do what they should have been doing from the start. Remember, at the beginning of instruction, the student had no clue how to decode, now he does. If you are using Reading Reflex for presenting the program, look at the hints for error correction and do them. Don’t do what we have been doing for years, giving the child the word, make him practice his decoding skills. I hope that this helps.

Shay wrote >>Just remember, the ability to decode words, (phonics and phoneme awareness) takes awhile.<<

Now this triggers a memory.

I was born in 1956 and taught to read via ‘look and say’.
After college and working a while I went back to take some
classes in elementary ed when whole language was hot.

We had one evening of phonics - and we were all flummoxed.
It was total gibberish to us.

Now that I have been raising my dyslexic son I have finally
learned how to decode words, in my 40s!
And I’m still learning. The next book on my list is
WORDS Integrated Decoding and Spelling Instruction Based on
Word Origin and Word Structure by Marcia K. Henry.

I found this in a catalog which has an online site
www.proedinc.com

Anne

and it was either Carmen or Geoffrey who made the statement. I think it was Carmen, although Geoffrey spent considerably more time talking about vision therapy overall. It’s been awhile for me, as I went through the training in October of 2000.

I haven’t read the original research in awhile, but I think it does state that every child who started the PG study finished it. This would include those who were referred for vision evaluations. It may not be mentioned in the study, but we were told that the children who were referred for vision evaluations took a break in order to do vision therapy, then came back and completed PG, making gains comparable to the other children.

Mary

Mary. When Carmen gets enthusiastic she stretches things. Nuff said.

to use a certified Phono-Graphix tutor in your area. Call or email the company to find out. If you could arrange for two tutoring sessions a week, you would get about the same effect in 6 weeks locally as you would from the one-week intensive in Orlando — and the total cost would be closer to $600.

The intensive is great, but when you have to factor in travel costs, hotel, meals out for a week, etc. it makes a lot of sense to try to do the program locally first.

Mary

Out of curiousity, which Poe story or poem do you generally like to use?

I’m beginning to realize that teaching reading can sometimes require an enormous amount of repetiton. The fact that there can be so many similar sound symbols for one sound can be very difficult. At least, that seems to be one stumbling block for my son. His biggest difficulty at this point is sound sorting in PG. Although, I have to admit, I myself get a little confused with it at moments (for example ‘oo’ as in ‘soon’ and ‘oo’ as in ‘cook’ had me stopping and thinking a few times!) and I’m naturally a very accomplished reader. What I found worked best for my son is for him to try and read the word the way he thought it should be, and then if it didn’t sound quite right, I’d have him try it with the other sound(s).

I’m pretty good about not “giving out” answers. I’m a big believer in the socratic method of teaching. But I find with my son, when he’s totally lost, if I start the sound, he can then finish the word quickly (this is another thing that makes me wonder if there’s also a visual element to his reading difficulty).

Well, I’ll continue with the program and ask questions when I’m lost. Thanks for all the help! I’m really thankful I found this site and have learned about so many great ways to help my son.

Hi Laura, In the eleventh grade literature book is a group of Poe short stories. We read them all. Included in their book is: “Death of the Red Mask” (My students favorite!),” The Raven”, “Danse Macabre” and “The House of Usher”. When I read your post, I heard some impatience in your ‘voice’.. Give your son time. Keep this in mind, you are actually changing nerve cells in the brain from not working to working. There were two brain research studies that gave us the information that we needed to understand how the reading process in the brain worked. The first, was that if the person had a phoneme awareness deficiency, the nerve cells in the left side of the brain were not working as they should be and the second was when the child was remediated, the right side of the brain picked up the ‘job’ instead of the left side. Remember, the brain is fluid, not rigid. I always think of these two studies when I begin teaching a child or class and it hasn’t let me down yet. Please be patient with your son, he will pick up your frustrations and may shut down. Don’t do any other programs with PG, give it time to work. I have found that 6 monthes is a good target for any child to see some really good improvement. Of course this depends on the degree of severity in phoneme awareness. Some students just need to understand the concept of that some sounds are represented by more than one symbol and how to decode MS words. Another thing, it isn’t hard to learn to read, it just takes more time with some people than others. You are teaching him the right way as far as questioning him about the choices of the combinations of the letters for the sound. If the student thought that glow was g/l/ ow, he will realize that it isn’t a word and try the other sound of ‘ow’, ‘oe’. You don’t learn sports overnight because they involve skills and you won’t teach reading overnight because it also depends on skills. It sounds like you are doing fine. One last thing, when my students have finished the program, when they start reading out of their grade level books, some need help with about 5 words in a sentence, then 4 words etc. As your son continues to practice his skills, he will remember more of the sounds for the symbols, be patient! You are doing fine. Your son may need a fluency program later. If that is the case, I understand that ‘Great Leaps’ is very good. I have used “Read Naturally” for my classes but it is too expensive for an individual to purchase. In fact, I am going to buy “Great Leaps” this year.

Ooooh thanks for that information about Great Leaps!!! I’ll have to take a look at that! I love researching.

But I had been thinking, once we finish PG, perhaps Word Workshop might be good as a “next step.” My son doesn’t seem to have comprehension difficulties, mostly mechanics and the illogical construction of English. Have you every used Word Workshop? If so, what’s your opinion about it? One nice thing, it’s reasonably priced.

There’s a couple of reasons for my impatience. Currently my son has a teacher who doesn’t think I can help him and doesn’t trust my internet research. I want to prove to her I can help him and that there are programs to help these kids. Also, we recently moved and next year my son will be going to an even more demanding school (the top school in the area where we live!). I’m really hoping to get his skills a little better by the time he starts.

And yet, I do understand I can’t be unreasonable and expect too much. It’s hard. But one thing that concerns me even more than (the more uninportant) proving myself, or having my child be able to “make it” at a very competitive school, is my son’s self-esteem. He knows he’s failing and at the bottom of the class. And he’s an extremely bright little boy (I suspect he may be quite gifted in strategy, patterning and some higher level thinking) I really hate to see him feeling like a failure. Perceiving himself as “dumb.” More than anything I want him to learn that HE can do it.

There is a “Simpsons” program, one of their Halloween specials, in which “The Raven” is acted out. The original wording of the poem is used, and I believe in its entirety. The sequence lasts seven or eight minutes. Try to get a videotape of this — your students would love it, especially after reading the poem.

I understand how much you want your son to learn and am very familar with having a teacher who is not receptive to any questions or ideas I learn from this site.

I think we all learn at our own pace to a degree. I do Reading Reflex and workbooks with my 9yr. old plus have him tutored 2x a week. It is making a difference but has not been some miracle.

Save you energy for your son and give up trying to prove anything to a non receptive teacher. If he does well she will jump in and take the credit anyway.

Good luck.

Hi Marion,
Thanks for sharing that you’re in the same boat!

Actually, I think I’m starting to see some real progress. I KNOW it’s slow and going to continue to be slow, but I have to say, when I compare his reading to where it was two months ago, it’s a big leap! And I do think the PG I’ve been doing with him for the last few weeks is really helping to “cement” and build on these gains!

Yet, since I have him home for this month, I’m really trying to do some intensive work. We’re doing 2-4 hours of PG per day (broken up to 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the late afternoon). I hope that’s not too much, but I think he’s even starting to realize the improvement (and he’s looking forward to getting 3 Bionicles when he finishes the book! ;-) . Although we’re working in chapter 5 doing lots of mapping, word analysis, etc., I’m having him read some extra books too (books at level 1 and 2) and we’re doing analysis with the difficult words. Today we looked at “science,” “studied,” “walkingstick,” and “twig” which seemed difficult until he did the analysis.

Since he has learned about syllables, we talked a tiny bit about “chunking” into syllables. Although not much! I don’t want to move ahead too quickly, but he’s really doing quite well and doesn’t seem overwhelmed. We do lots and lots of review too just to make sure that what he’s learning becomes concrete and automatic.

Also, he does get breaks. For example, tomorrow he’ll go to chess camp and we’ll only have a little time in the early evening to work on PG.

This is a HUGE leap from him not being able to read even the simplest words a couple of months ago. Two months ago he was at the very bottom of the class and the teacher told me that he could be a “reading group” all by himself. I’m very proud of him.
It’s starting to get very exciting!

terrific post marion, you are right on target and you are right, the teacher will take credit for any reading improvements in y our child! but good for you that you do not care and good for your child,

libby

great post Laura, wish all parents felt and did what you are doing, lucky for your son,

and your ability to give it time, again, hats off to you, libby