"modified" O-G

I think your son will like the approach, especially if the tutor is creative and fitting it to his needs. He may like the “organization” that OG provides through the rules. It makes sense of what is confusing to him and perhaps he will start to see the differences. The OG rules will help him and reinforce his memory. I wonder however, if he will find it boring stuff.

I have used Solving Language Difficulties published by EPS with some of my kids, this small book has helped some of my kids as they start to see the structure behind the OG rules and how it helps them to unlock the words that confuse them.

Pattim,

Do you think it will be less boring than PACE’s MTC? That is the only other option I can think of at this moment. The AP work was so dreadful that I am reluctant to go that direction. His major issue is automaticity.

How fast does this sort of approach work?

Beth

The speed is so dependent on the student that it’s really impossible to say how fast htings will go. A favorite sales pitch for other programs is to say that O-G is “too slow, kids need to learn to read right away.” On the other hand, you know that sometimes there just isn’t a quick fix. I think it was ol’ Dr. Orton himself who coined “as fast as you can, as slow as you must” to describe pacing things.
On important difference between O-G and most other programs is the importance of “automaticity.” In the short term, this makes things seem to take longer — because more time is spent practicing and reviewing and reviewing and practicing. However, a year down the road, the kiddo who went faster may be stumbling because it’s just too hard to integrate all those skills that are still just a little tough and have to be figured out each time (*especially* the kids with the memory issues — this is why automaticity is *more* important for them). Many kids do assimilate and integrate the reading connections more intuitively… but if that intuition just isn’t there, it isn’t going to happen.

Rules, rules… this depends on the teacher. You *can* make an O-G program a sea of rules. This is one (of many) reasons why it’s not a program to pick up the book for and try to wing it — you learn, from folks who do it, the art of making a “rule” something that makes *sense* to a kid, more of a discovery. It was one of my students who figured out that hey, those words that end in -tute… it’s an I that comes before it. Now, do you say “how interesting!” and let the student forget it (and often they do), or do you include that in their review every once in a while so that down the road they apply it?

Automaticity is a key design point of MTC. But I will tell you that I think it’s kind of overloading in areas as well. If your son had trouble with the 1st 2 AP lessons in PACE (AIC and ASW) he will not like MTC. It really builds where you left off with PACE AP.

My dd was cruising pretty good with AIC. She could do 100 bps, on every beat and we pushed to 120 on some. When we hit MTC, you start real quick with common sounds that have multi letters in them. We had to slow way down to not even using the metronome and were maxing at like 80bps every other beat. Good news is that we re-did all the base code this spring and she did retain it and was able to speed up to 100bps on every beat.

We are now stuck on the complex code where you learn all the alternate spelllings for a sound. Her speed is not doing to bad - 100bps every other beat on multisyllable words, but remembering all the alternate spellings is confusing. Remembering sound/symbol had always been a huge issue and I’ve always thought it was a big contributor to her reading issues.

I do like all the drills on having to image it in your head, write it etc. This seems to be helping her spelling. MTC has lots of drills, lots of differnt exercises to link reading/spelling/visual imagery - all geared toward creating automaticity.

One other thought that I always struggle with, is that I think my dd KNOWS how to read. I don’t think I need another reading program. She knows letters represent sounds and you put them together to form words etc. Her brain just doesn’t want to work that way. MTC is a cognitive approach in which you are trying to re-program your brain to do the appropriate blending etc. I don’t know if correct or not, but it’s what I’m leaning with.

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I am not familiar with O-G. Am I correct in assuming this is the Orton program? Anyway, you mentioned the financial issue. So many parents drive all kinds of hours to get their child to a tutor or music lessons once a week, but they may not make any actual effort to learn about the subject themselves. It sounds like you have been involved in working with your child which is good. My suggestion, if you haven’t already started to do so, is to read everything you can get your hands on about this method so that you reinforce it consistently with him at home. You want to know not only what he is working on for the week, but why he is doing it and what he can be expected to progress to in the future because you understand the basic program. Nothing can take the place of an experienced practitioner, but a knowledgeable parent can come in a close second, and can shorten the number of visits needed.

I have a question regarding MTC. Are most of the exercises done to a metronome – similarly to PACE?

I think Sue put it best…and I am familiar with MTC as it is kill and drill…OG done properly will be a much more fun alternative…I think you will also notice a difference in him once he starts meds too…Let me know how it goes..

I know you are right. I think I posted looking for a bit of hand holding, frankly. The tutor seems really good but she is a psychologist charging psychologist rates—twice as much as anyone else I have talked to. Thus, the financial issue. But I paid for three weeks of another tutor three times a week to do LIPS with him this summer—which was a total waste of money.

Beth

Your suggestion is a good one. While I have worked with my son on reading intensively for the past two plus years, it has never been with O-G materials.
The tutor told me she would train me to work with him but a general conceputal overview would serve me well. Thank you.

Beth

My son also knows how to read, but like your daughter, the process just doesn’t work as well as it should. I know that automaticity is the cornerstone of MTC which is why I have seriously considered it. (Other than the fact that I am already trained in PACE and could do MTC quite cheaply.) But my son just had such a hard time with the PACE AP exercises that I doubt the wisdom of going that way.

We did all the exercises at 60 bpm—never ventured faster than that. He did most of the AIC that way but never got past the first level of ASW. That is when we first started realizing there were dysgraphic type issues with him. He couldn’t write letters at a rapid rate. He would say things like “what does an f look like?”

The real problem were the AST and ADD. We never got to the level that PACE says you need to do MTC, despite much assistance from Tanya. After you posted about your success, following Tomatis, we did TLP which made a big difference. We were able to get through levels that we had spent months on in a matter of days. But we had burned ourselves out so much that we never finished the program, even then. If we had done TLP first, we might have had a different experience.

I think the problem with MTC is that if a child simply cannot do it there are no alternative ways to get the information automatic. After our experience with PACE, I am just reluctant to try it. I am afraid we will run up against the same sort of wall. My son also just hated PACE–he told me that it was the worst thing I ever had him do–worse than Fast Forward. I honestly think it was because he experienced so little success (I think Fast Forward was much worse to do but he got more permanent results from it.)

On the other hand, I think it is a very sound program and clearly kids who can complete it, do very well.

Beth

Pattim,

My son’s attention seems fine one on one. Do you think we’ll still see a difference with meds?

Beth

Have you seen the article on my site about it? If you start there (under reading and spelling at www.resourceroom.net) and then wander over to yahoogroups and msslathome you can get a neat crash course and even games and materials, and cruising through the archives for messages is fun too. Oh, of course, it’s not as good as the intensive training from the experts…

Actually I haven’t. Will start there. I always thought LIPS would be our course of last resort so I haven’t researched it.

Beth

I think meds will help your son but you know your son better than I do…

On a side note about adults and teens with ADD, they have the proper pragmatics skills but many times they are thinking about something else while they appear to be paying attention. Her is a little snippit about Petra Pan, an adult who refuses to grow up who also has non medicated ADHD.

Petra Pan, is almost 30 years old..who has the “appearing to pay attention” down to a science. Petra states: “I hear everything people are saying but I can’t help it, my mind just goes off on a tangent when I am talking or listening to people.” Petra has an incredible auditory memory for movies, dialogue including music but if you ask Petra to remember to do something or give her a multistep command…good luck…

In essense Petra hears and remembers what she chooses to. Petra refuses to even think about medication even though her impulsivity and inattentive behaviors are out of control and her life is in shambles. Petra is inattentive to her financial affairs and only worries about it when it becomes a big fire…Petra would be homeless without the kindness of church members who have taken her in over the years and tried to help Petra help herself…Petra’s family is very dysfunctional and they are now getting help for their problems, they couldn’t live with Petra and kicked her out years ago..Petra mocks her parent for getting meds, thinks it is a sign of weakness…:-(

Petra has over $20K in debt due to impulsivity, dropped out at least 3 times from trade school, doing what she wants to do which is cut hair… Petra can’t keep a job very long, as she can’t keep the “facade” up.. Petra is always looking for the thrill and states that people are boring. Petra put 140K miles on her car which is 3 years old…she would just take off whenever she felt like it to “get away from it all”…Recently, Petra took off in her car on an impulsive wandelust trip but only got about 200 miles from home, in the desert because the car broke down…she had to call home and they bailed her out by picking her up and towing her car back home…Petra was angry because she didn’t get to go on her impulsive trip and she treated her family poorly when she came back home…

Petra can’t keep a relationship with women or men…they always end poorly and it is always the other person’s fault…Petra wants to be married and have kids and be taken care of but she doesn’t want to be responsible for herself..(she watched too many Brady Bunch sitcoms :-))….. One day Prince Charming found Petra attractive, and Petra brushed him off because he was too nice and boring…and she has regrets about that missed opportunity…but Petra wouldn’t even take the time to be Prince Charming’s friend, as she is too busy looking for the destination, heck with the journey…she is looking for the ONE and it is always on the other side of the fence..out of her reach……Petra has no idea that taking the time to develop real loving friendships with people is what leads to the ONE.

Petra’s ADD went undiagnosed for 29 years…according to Petra just finding out that she has this “life changing disability” when she wants to be perfect…is overwhelming but Petra chooses to not do anything about. Petra stated shrinks and medication are a waste of money and that she learns more by reading books about ADHD and knows how to fix herself. But the sad reality is that reading a book will not change the way Petra’s brain is working.

It is sad…and there isn’t anything anyone can do to help Petra until she chooses to help herself. I wish I could wrap up this tale with a happy ending but it is an ongoing saga for many Adult Peter/Petra Pan’s in this world. They are writing their own pages in their book of life. Petra Pan isn’t me but it is what has happened to people that I know.

about improvements!!!

Beth

Nope - he wouldn’t like MTC at all. My dd actually liked most of the exercises with PACE - not all of them,but there were enough that she did enjoy that we could get thru it without alot of fighting.

MTC tho has not been quite as fun. Some of the PACE exercises were more game-like - not so with MTC, but I also haven’t been as good about setting up a reward-based incentive system with MTC.

I have found going back thru the exercises a 2nd time has helped - she has done much better on second round. We just need to finish!!!

I would want to be very ‘automatic’ with those basic sounds and drills in the PACE AP before moving on to anything like MTC.

Yes, most are done with a metronome and they build off of the AP exercises in PACE. There are a number of new drills they introduce in both the basic code and then again in the complex code piece.

It’s VERY systematic. As the trainer, it’s all spelled out for you - you only have to be creative in keeping the student motivated and push to their thresholds. Which makes it a good program for parents to be able to implement with their kids and reinforce when they read/write etc.

Beth, hope you don’t mind if I pop in. Just a word of encouragement. My daughter made drastic gains after beginning ADD medication. What a difference! She’s fine one on one, but put her in a classroom and she’s lost. I think its a mixture of ADD, APD and motor planning, but together they wreaked havoc on her academic life. It has made such a difference at school.

Would it be helpful to get the Gillingham Manual (Green/8th edition) and/or the Guide to Teaching Phonics by Orton? I am trying to implement an MSSL reading program with my child. Thanks, Jan P.

Well, we have all those issues too so it is good to hear!!! Motor planning is much improved post IM. He has learned to type this summer using Read Write and Type. Not sure he is functional yet but he volunteered to go back through all the letters again!!

Beth

Beth,

I also think EPS sells a short training course for the first level of OG certification for something like $100.

Janis

A good OG tutor addresses the memory stuff too by accommodating it in a way that works for the student. My guys organize the conceptual stuff in a file cabinet- and I actually have a picture of one. They labels the drawers as we “open” them- single sound consonants, r-controlled vowels, diphthongs etc. And we only work with info from the open drawers. All the routines- how to read a word, syllable dividing guides etc are also on cards and each child has their own individualized set. True OG is not a program or a set of rules- it is a set of procedures- and the procedures do work:)
Robin

That really depends upon your incoming knowledge base about this stuff- both of those books are quite technical- I love the green book but it probably the most boring thing on my shelf…LOL. Anyway- they might be more confusing to a layperson than helpful.

Robin

Well, I think you just confirmed what I have been thinking about him hating MTC. At this point, I can’t take it!!!

Beth

Thanks Robin. Too bad you aren’t here!!! You grow to trust people reading these boards in way you can’t assess in an hour appointment.

Beth