Phonographix question on spelling

Karen,

Perhaps not suprisingly, my son does the same thing. My son was able to learn that there was more than one way to make each sound and the next step was really to get familar with the words and how they are supposed to look.

Although phonographix really helped his reading spelling is still a bit of a problem. I think the lindamood bell method of visualizing the word and what it looks like should help. I have been trying to do this with him and he just says, “I can’t make pictures in my head.”

I ask him to tell me what the third letter in the word “every” by picturing it in his mind. He knows the answer but I think he is just counting the letters.
He does great on spelling tests but falters in his spelling when he writes.

We just started this so I don’t know if he will ever be able to make pictures in his head. If I was doing phonographix now I would try to incorporate the idea of creating images for words and fit the correct sound pictures into the word. Also ask him what the second or third sound picture is that he sees when picturing the word. This is how we practice for spelling tests.

I guess it is about putting the auditory component of listening for what sounds correct, combined with creating a visual image that lets you know you chose the sound that also looks right, based on some stored visual image.

Just last night I asked him if he could visualize the word “nurse”. He said he doesn’t see the letters, but he did picture the nurse from his school. I’ve always spelled by seeing the letters on a big blackboard in my mind, but I don’t know if he can do that. I was cheered to learn though that he visualizes things that he hears and reads. We think his reading comprehension is very good despite his reading difficulty, maybe that’s why. (another non-NLD strength!)

Frankly, I don’t care if he learns to spell except as it related to him learning to read.

Seeing STars directly attacks the seeing the letters in his mind as opposed to Visualizing and Verbalizing which is the nurse picture—which is related to comprehension. My son couldn’t see letters at all either before we did some Seeing Stars. I only did the program for a little while but I have found now that if he gets stuck on spelling a word from his spelling list, I can have him close his eyes and visualize the letters. It seems to help.

Beth

My son has excellent comprehension as well. He has especially good listening comprehension. I was reading him a book last night and asked if he visualized the character. He said he did and gave a very descriptive explanation about what he saw. I am hoping this is a sign that he will be able to visualize the letters when he is taught.

He is a big picture person so perhaps visualizing something as specific as letters never occured to him. Maybe he is doing what your son does, which is visualizing the concept or definition of the word and not the letters.

How very interesting!

I have a PS on that.

I think that visualizing will help him to read faster and write better. I eventually will try to get him to visualize punctuation and capitals. He verbally knows he needs to use these things but I think when he is writing, he needs to SEE where they go. He does so much through his auditory sense, which works for some things, but I just keep thinking he need these skills so he won’t keep missing all the little details of life.

Hi Karen,

When you get to mapping the advanced code, your son will see that there are several different ways to spell the /er/ sound, just as there are several ways to spell most sounds.

After he’s done a mapping of a sound, such as /er/, it’s actually a good review to have him try several spellings of the sound in a word that he’s having trouble spelling, because this requires him to come up with acceptable spellings on his own.

For instance, if he’s trying to spell “bird” and comes up with “berd” or “beard,” simply ask him for some other /er/ sound spellings and have him try them. Alternatively, you could suggest two or three additional spellings, say “ir” and “ear” and them have him compare the results to see which “looks familiar.”

It’s useful to explain to him that we learn to spell by seeing words used in print. He shouldn’t be expected to spell “bird” until he’s seen “bird” used a few times in stories, after which “bird” will start to look better than “berd” or “burd” to him.

Generally, once kids understand that English is a phonetic language, and once they can properly segment the English sounds, they realize that spelling isn’t the chore they once thought it was (rote memorization of the visual forms of thousands of words…an impossible task.) ….Rod

“First he spelled “heard” correctly. the next word was “hurt” so he spells it “heart”. Which makes total phonetic sense right? Other words on the list were firm, term skirt. All with a “UR” sound in the middle.

“Is it strictly a memorization thing?”

Spelling is based on phonics, word meanings, and the origins of particular words. All of these have to be taken into account. If any program gives equal weight to all of the visual symbols to represent a particular sound, there is a flaw in that program. It’s helpful, though, to acquaint yourself with the frequency order of the various spellings so that your child can make informed choices.

On my website, you’ll find a list of the frequency order of long vowel patterns: http://www.spellangtree.org/LongVowelPatterns.htm.
With simple long vowel patterns, the different spellings were often created to denote particular meanings (homophones as wait, weight)

The r-controlled vowel sounds are also more frequently represented by particular spellings. I’m not sure if this is complete but \ar\ is usually spelled “ar,” with the rare exception being “ear” (heart, hearth). \er\ is usually spelled “er,” “ir,” “ur,” or “or” if preceded by “w” (word, work, worm, world, worse, worst, worth). It is spelled “ear” in words like search, heard, pearl, earn, earth. These are really a minor pattern. It can also be spelled “our” as in journey. A common mnemonic to help children remember is “Her first nurse works early,” but that still doesn’t include the “ear” spelling so you might want to write a mnemonic of your own.

Having the child hunt for words with the \er\ sound, write the words on small cards, and sort them according to spellings will help him learn which spellings appear to be most frequent. Teaching children to use the basic patterns for spellings will help make sure that what he reads can be decoded by others. Variant spellings need to be memorized. Providing an example, on a card, of the correct spelling, running a line of white gule over the letters, and having the child say the word, trace and say the letters, and say the word again is often helpful. Kinesthetic-tactile experiences are a great help to memory.

Remember that any program such as PG will do more to help the child read than it will help him to spell. Spelling and reading are closely related but stronger from spelling to reading than the reverse. Some people NEVER become good spellers but if they are taught correctly, we will be able to read what they write. For a good example, take a look at the journals of the explorers, Lewis and Clark. They left us wonderful information with sometimes atrocious spelling.

Hope this all makes sense. Grace/IL

Punctuation and capitals should be realted to auditory skills! Punctuate *as* you write, never as an afterthought. A comma is a short break for breath and a period is a longer break after you finish a statement. A capital is the start of a new statement after the pause. A question mark is a rising voice. These rules are variable as writing style is variable, but they’ll stand you in good stead.

Hi Everyone,
Read America puts out a reproducible book called the Super Speller (SS). This is a great book that you can use not only to cement the visual of the different digraphs and dipthongs (D & D) that makes up a sound but to help, of course, with understanding how to use the strategies that teach reading, to teach spelling. Within the SS, is the same word lists that are in PG or Reading Reflex. The strategies used in the book are sorting and Scratch Sheet Spelling. I will try to tell you what these are about. Yes, spelling is visual memory, but when the child, through PG, is able to make sense of print, ex. though is now /th/ough/, two sounds, since ‘ough’ represents one sound, /o-e/, instead of t/h/o/u/g/h/, visual memory starts to become stronger. You can strenghten visual memory like everything else if you know how to do it. You have to make PG visual as well as auditory by having the child ‘look’ at the combinations in the graph form while going through the program.

Now I will talk about the two main exercises in the Super Speller, sorting and Scratch Sheet Spelling. In sorting, the words are sorted into lists that share the same dipthong or digraph. For ex, all of the words, boat, boast, goat, would be put under the ‘oa’ list. etc. The reason that you need the actual book is because it shows you the most used dipthongs or digraphs for each sound. The tasks in the book are based on visual memory. Scratch Sheet Spelling is somewhere in Reading Reflex. What it is: in the SS the most used D & D are listed as a header and then spaces are under each D &D for the words. It is actually a spelling test of sorts. (Boy is this hard to describe!) For ex., sound ‘oe’ would look like this with an ex of what the child is to do:
oe oa o ow
boet boat bot bowt
gloe gloa glo glow

You give them the word and they try all of the different main ways to spell the word and then they circle or check the one that has the correct spelling. Of course, we know that it would be boat and glow. The reason why this will work now is because the child now knows that all of the combinations can represent the /oe/ sound because he was told. I know that I have told you that after you get through RR as fast as possible, error correction is the magic ‘bullet’ that finalizes the reading process for the child. He has to hear the sound and see the D & D at the same sound. Then after your child needs less time correcting the sounds, have him practice by reading. This not only strengthens his recognition of D&D, but also his visual memory! He has to practice reading in order to be able to spell.

One thing though, I have not been able to really remediate the spelling of people who are just learning how to read at grade level at an older age. This includes teenagers. What I have been able to do is at least improve there spelling so that spell check will work. One thing that everyone on this board has to remember, you are not alone in your quest in improving reading, spelling and writing in your children. There hasn’t been a spelling, reading or writing program in most school districts for the last 15 years of any value. I teach teamed 11th grade academic English and very few of my students can spell, write or comprehend print. At the beginning of the year, I asked the students, 30 in each class, if they could remember what they read the first time they read it and noone put up their hand. I am teaching the class with the classroom teacher using PG, V/V, and Step Up to Writing. I truly think that the only difference between those students who are diagnosed and those that aren’t, are the tests which result in the label. I am sure that if I were to test everyone in my two inclusion classes, I would find some area that they would be deficient in. This is the reason that I really don’t believe that the majority of the children in special ed shouldn’t be. Remember, I teach in a school with at least 70 different languages. ESL services are given in the whole language way, no phonics.

Now, I am speaking with , most of you on this thread this weekend, so we can continue talking about spelling, and what how I use it. If you want to get on my ‘calling list’, email me directly and I will help you. Also, if you have emailed me recently with your phone number, email me again if I haven’t emailed you back, I have had a ‘worm’ in my email. Gone now, Shay

I would add three things to Shay’s explanation.

1. When the child is going to circle or mark the “correct word” in the SSS exercise I use the word as recommended by RA, find the ‘accepted speelling” of the word. All the words - bot, boat, bote, bowt - can be read as boat but only one is the “accepted spelling”, the one the child will see in books and in the dictionary. I tell the kids this.

2. I also tell the kids that one way to become a good speller is to read because seeing the words over and over again as they read helps them with the visual memory which is required to be able to pick the “accepted” spelling. Once you start to read and see the words over and over the spellings of bot, bote, bowt will just look funny to you. Pick a word that you know your child can spell and have him do SSS. He will see how funny the incorrect word does look. This helps kids to understand the SSS strategies. I also tell the kids if the word they are trying to spell is one they have not seen while reading they will have to memorize the the sound picture that is the accepted spelling. There is no other way around this issue. Spelling is first accomplished by good segmenting and then visual memory which is aided by lots of reading.

3. I also telll the kids that adults use SSS alll the time. Often when we are spelling a word that might have a part that is hard to remember we write it on a piece of paper several different ways and then “look” to see which one looks right. When this fails I tell kids even adults will get out a dictionary.

Looks Right is an activity I do with my students. We make list all of the ways we might spell a word and decide if it looks right or not, then, cross out the ones that do not look right. the more students read and practice the looks right strategy the better speller they will become. Another thing I do is select a vowel digraph for the spelling list for the week. Let’s say it is ‘oa’. All of the words will use the oa digraph and then we will add prefixes and suffixes. Then, we will look for these types of words in books and use them in sentences. We write stories using that digraph all week. I try to emphasize this vowel digraph in all areas of instruction. I use previous words as bonus words and for some of the other spelling words. This way we never leave a digraph once it is introduced, they will have a word every week in the test.

THis is a very good conversation. I will add that I use picture anchors also, like the P.G. program does, and they are from PHONICS Q.

As for the “ear” and “ur” and “er” and “ir” all sounding the same, I use the terminology “most popular spelling.” So for this particular sound, ER is the winner, and it usually shows up as an ending (that makes the word a noun). Next runner-up is ur, and it is usually in the center. Etc.

I want to answer the question, What do you do after the basic strategies of the Super Speller are finished? I highly recommend two programs, Spelling Power by Castlemoyle and Sequential Spelling by AVKO. I am doing spelling in my reading class, mostly finished with PG except for a few that I have to work with on a small group. I work in a school that has 70 languages and we have many minorities in our sped classes. There isn’t a phonics program in our county, we are still whole language based so we have many who graduate from ESL to SPED. I gave the spelling test for the basic code and I have to review many of the sounds for the Hispanic kids. I go from the known to the unknown. What sound/symbol relationship is the same in Spanish to what isn’t. I have 13 kids in my class with 5 with Hispanic background. I do have an aide that I am teaching PG but it is still quite difficult. Try either of these programs, they both have a website.

Karen,
My son also has difficulty with automatically knowing which is the right sound or spelling. I think a lot of this boils down to lots and lots of repetition so that they can start off with making a very good guess (I often times will say to my son, “What are other sounds does that symbol can stand for?” or “What other symbols are used for that sound?”), and hopefully, he’ll eventually make the choises more quickly until he “knows” the right one.

Victoria,

I have to disagree with you on this point as it relates to my son. He can tell you where all the punctuation and capitals go. He fully understands the concepts, yet, he does not do it. He has a huge problem with attention to visual details. He really needs to see what a page is supposed to look like when it has all the correct punctuation and capitols. He needs to fully ingrain into his brain how a well written paragraph not only sounds, but looks. He writes wonderful stories that can’t be read by anyone but him. He can visualize the concepts but almost completely ignores the visual details. Amazingly, he can pay attention to a very long book on tape and remember every detail of the story.

I think paying attention to such visual detail is second nature to most of us so many don’t believe it is something that truely needs to be taught.

He knows it, but doesn’t see it. This pretty much describes his problem with almost everything related to learning.

Linda

Our Neuronet therapist says punctuation is related to visual-auditory integration. This means you must have the auditory and the visual and be able to integrate the two. For my son, the visual and the auditory are less problematic than the integration. But perhaps for your son, his visual deficits are the problem.

Beth

I believe perhaps the integration of the visual and the motor. I think the motor has improved significantly since IM. I also think he has new visual skills. I think imagery just helps him use his new visual skills. I have seen an improvement in the spelling of late. It is so hard to tell what has helped since we do so many things.

This is just my son. They certainly all carry different baggage.

Let me give you a definite maybe on that question.

Using only sounds, you can predict most consonants — over 80% to 90% I would estimate — and over half the vowels. You can spell words in a way that any literate person can read your writing, even if it isn’t standard.
For example, “hurt” could be spelled hert, hirt or possibly hort, If a child wrote
I fel dwn and hirt mi lag
you could understand it perfectly well.

This is the *first* level of spelling, writing so that someone else can figure it out.

Then we get to standardize, and yes, you have to memorize. But the point is that the memorization is NOT random — the “er” sound has three regular spellings er, ir, and ur, and a third rarer spelling or as in work. So rather than memorize each word as a message from Mars, you just have to memorize *which* of the common vowel patterns is used (oh, yeah, hurt, that’s a u word).
Then for “heard” you have to memorize a non-standard spelling which can also be looked at as a silent letter (oh, heard, that’s ear instead of er, stupid a in there)

This cuts out literally 90% or more of the memorization load in spelling — half the words you meet are spelled as they sound, a quarter require choosing one oout of three or four standard patterns, and the remaining quarter require remembering a silent letter or other odd fact.