Advice for non-reading, honors 16 year old!!

I have taught gifted students before and the problem seems to be, just like other non-readers, they have a problem with decoding multisyllable words due to the fact that they don’t know how to decode them and then their reading fluency is affected. It doesn’t take long to help and I use Phono-Graphix for them as with my other students. I call the instruction, advanced reading strategies, which is really what it is. Most of the kids in my regular ed academic 11th grade English class, when reading aloud, read to a MS word, stop and wait until I tell them what it is and then continue reading. Their vocabulary is very poor due to the fact that few read anything. Go get yourself the Reading Reflex book and if you like, email me after you have read the first two chapters and I will help you work with him. The next thing that you have to do is get him interested in different types of books. I do this by showing my students movies of different literature so that they may be able to see what they may like to read. I showed my students “The Lord of the Rings” to represent fantasy and some went out to see the second installment and then they bought the third book! It will work sometimes.

Dear Shay,
Thank you for your quick response! Actually, I have Reading Reflex, in a large part based on your postings on this board. I got it for my 10 year old, but found that although I am an avid reader, I had problems with blending and segmentation in the book. I was afraid I would teach him incorrectly. Fortunately, I found a PG tutor in my area and JUST started my 10 year old with her last week. I had hit a brick wall with the school district. None of the school’s specialists (reading, special ed AND speech/language) seemed to feel that his reading comprehension problems had anything to do with his APD and lack of phonemic awareness because “he can visually decode.” It doesn’t inspire any confidence in me when these so-called specialists look at me blankly when I tell them that you also need auditory phonemic awareness to read. The PG tutor found that he scored only 20-30% in the tests she administered.
I will talk to her about my 16 year old. It’s interesting that you mention showing films. The one book that Paul read and enjoyed was the Count of Monte Cristo after seeing the movie. He did pick up the first book in the Lord of the Rings but it was such painfully slow going that he put it down after about 30 pages! It makes me sad because my brother was 10 when he read the entire trilogy, 30 years ago. It is disturbing to see how schools are failing our children.
I have followed all of your posts and had wished desparately for someone like you to tutor my 10 year old in my area. I am hopeful that I have. This woman also has Spaulding background and some Lindamood. She is definitely certified in PG as I got her name from their website.
Sincerely, Eileen

Eileen,
If The Lord of the Rings was hard and painful for your older son, I think that what I said he needs is exactly that, he needs work in the advanced code and MS words. See if you can have the tutor teach him as well. If you want me to speak to him directly, send me your phone number and I will. I have a way with getting through to teenagers, since my daughter learned to read at age 19 with PG. It won’t take long for your older son.

Decoding multisyllabic words is a vital skill and some direct teaching can certainly help. But then, to develop any skill, from skating to playing cards, you have to *use* it. If he liked Harry Potter, OK, run out quickly and buy the whole set (I have it and I read it with pleasure too — nothing to be ashamed of.) I also find Lord of the Rings tedious and flat in places. Get a bunch of juvenile science fiction — Heinlein’s books are the classics. Asimov’s robot books are good too. Try the standard boy books — Call of the Wild, White Fang, and as he moves up, Treasure Island. The idea is to have books that he can read relatively smoothly and enjoy; then as he reads, he will develop more and more vocabulary and then be ready to move up a level. Make friends with your local used book store and buy a few dozen good but not too long paperbacks, then more longer ones once a topic catches his fancy. AND you don’t absolutely have to read novels — what about books of fact, science magazines such as Discover, etc? They have tons of multisyllabic words and complex sentences.
By the way, my daughter’s boyfriend was in this exact situation two years ago; honours science student, now studying university physics, and had never read a novel for fun; problem compounded by bad ESL teaching and zero English reading instruction in his youth, so he had to pick it all up by himself. What cured him was my beloved daughter. Like me, she can’t live without being surrounded by books. He is interested in fantasy, from the direction of films and animation, so she brought in all sorts of fantasy novels to share with him. He started to sort of look at a few, got hooked, and is reading through one of those inteminable series with her. Sure, it isn’t great literature, but he can read.

I post here about my 11 yr old LD child, but I also have 2 teen boys who do well in school. The 17 yr old is and has always been an avid reader.. The 15 yr old sounds like your son in the lack of interest area-I know he has no trouble decoding and actually excels at it-he is frequently chosen for oral reading because of his strength

I think you have received excellent advice and dont want to speak against it, but are you sure it’s a disability and not purely lack of interest. My 15 yr old enjoyed the Harry Potter books but also couldnt stand Lord of the Rings. And, I have to add, he tried reading it AFTER the movie so of course it seemed slow by comparison!!!

He does read magazines and video game cheats and websites. I think he is turned off by descriptive writing and LONG books.

He did enjoy The Golden Compass and Pullman’s other two books in this trilogy. They were lengthy but he ate them up-more action, less description if I recall correctly. Might be worth a try.

I always knew which books to buy my oldest-if he was into fantasy, he would like fantasy. The middle one has ALWAYS been difficult-it simply doesnt work that way with him-he is judging on something other than book type.

“The Outsiders” was another favorite and-are you ready for this? Moby Dick!

My son made me go out and buy ALL of the Lord of Rings trilogy sets - it was the cool thing in his class. He had a very tough time getting into The Hobbit - too slow moving and he was having hard time following (he was 11). He was just hitting a point where he was starting to follow it and then he saw the movie. Freaked him out, he had bad dreams for a week and wouldn’t pick the book back up. And I still have the whole trilogy!

I too am struggling with finding books of interest for him (and I really don’t think he has any decoding problems -he scores in the adult range on auditory processing tests,and 99% in reading on school testing).

Funny you mention The Outsiders. It was one of my favorites and I had been wondering whether to introduce to him - didn’t know if he was still too young?

Right now, he really likes Historical fiction books -esp. books on WWII and Civil War periods. Am having a hard time coming up with titles on these.

Another suggestion is Clive Cussler (he writes the books about Dirk Pitt)- we have one that had been modified for younger readers. Very action packed - but I don’t know if they have anymore they have modified? I found it at a book sale.

My daughter is in the 7th grade and is reading The Outsiders for school, if that helps at all.

I loved the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings but I think I read them in high school. It was all the rage.

Beth

how old is he, if he likes Civil War, and is in 7th or 8th grade, get him the Pulitzer Prize winning book, The Killer Angels,

it is all about Gettyburg Battle, very good book if he really likes reading about war etc, Gettysburg (the movie) was made based on this book, or have him try to Redwall series,

the Hobbit is not nearly as good as the Lord of the Rings Trilogy

libby

I was never ‘exposed’ to any of the Lord of the Rings books when I was growing up. So I don’t know much about them. I did see the movie tho - thought it was pretty good.

My son and I were talking about books last night (he was reading a Dear America book - a civil war one - which he has read about 10 times now and I think it’s below his reading ability- he just keeps reading the same books over and over). He told me that he did finish The Hobbit. But he has not started any of the other books - says they were boring.

I need to make a trip to the library!

I will check those out. I think he may like them. He’s in 6th grade, but he is capable of 7th/8th grade level books.

My bright, non-LD son quit reading for pleasure around 7th grade. That’s when his school used Accelerated Reader and required him to choose books at his reading level. He could not “get into” books that were on a 9th-10th grade level, many of them novels written for adults. There needs to be time to read purely for pleasure, whatever the reading level!

I always greatly mistrust these programs that claim to teach by forcing kids to read using a reward/punishment system. For anyone in my family, a reward/punishment system just gets our backs up and guarantees we will do the opposite of what people are trying to force us to do. In general, research going back to Skinner in the 40’s and 50’s shows that you can *temporarily* increase any behaviour by giving out rewards, but when you cut off the rewards the behaviour sinks back to original levels or goes even lower; the removal of the rewards is equivalent to a punishment. So unless you intend to keep giving gold stars and grades for the rest of a person’s life, you’re not going to turn him into a reader by doing this, and you may in fact turn him off reading.

Having been a general ed teacher for a number of years I have seen accelerated reader literally transform many reluctant readers into a reader. I practically cried when I heard one of my studentts say she had never actually read a book her entire life until AR started in the 6th grade. Parents couldn’t or wouldn’t follow through to make sure she read at home. Many many kids just don’t have or make time at home and AR does provide a place for this to happen. Now most of you are active parents who are educated on how to help your child. I will tell you that in my district you are the minority. Having a quiet room without distractions at school works for many but not all.

On the other hand, AR has not worked in my LD resource class at all. The kids hate to have easy books in front of peers. Students lose books and can’t check them out and don’t pay for lost books. Students leave books at home, in desk etc… No one program fits all. But…..for most kids who can decode I have seen great things with AR.

The kid across the street is a perfect example. He never completed a book. Now he reads all the time. The point system and personal goal has transformed him into a bookaholic.

How about some autobiographies ? I always liked them better than historical fiction. They seem more real. In 4th my daughter was interested in the Holocaust..She read When Hitler stole pink rabbit, I have lived a thousand years- that one I remember as being sickeningly graphic (hollocaust survivor) but she liked it. Parrallel Journeys written by a child Nazi and a survivor who now lecture together, Child of Hitler- Germany in the day when God wore a Swastika- Alfons Heck- another book written by the former Hitler Youth. Except for the first, most of these books were intended for a more mature audience. OOo. I remember she really liked Animal Farm too. If the movie Lord of the Rings bothered him, some of these might be too graphic. My daughter had a surprisingly high tollerance for gore. I bet your librarian could help you out.

DEA wrote:
>
> My son made me go out and buy ALL of the Lord of Rings
> trilogy sets - it was the cool thing in his class. He had a
> very tough time getting into The Hobbit - too slow moving and
> he was having hard time following (he was 11). He was just
> hitting a point where he was starting to follow it and then
> he saw the movie. Freaked him out, he had bad dreams for a
> week and wouldn’t pick the book back up. And I still have
> the whole trilogy!
>
> I too am struggling with finding books of interest for him
> (and I really don’t think he has any decoding problems -he
> scores in the adult range on auditory processing tests,and
> 99% in reading on school testing).
>
> Funny you mention The Outsiders. It was one of my favorites
> and I had been wondering whether to introduce to him - didn’t
> know if he was still too young?
>
> Right now, he really likes Historical fiction books -esp.
> books on WWII and Civil War periods. Am having a hard time
> coming up with titles on these.
>
> Another suggestion is Clive Cussler (he writes the books
> about Dirk Pitt)- we have one that had been modified for
> younger readers. Very action packed - but I don’t know if
> they have anymore they have modified? I found it at a book
> sale.

but that is what worries me, having seen so many programs so badly implemented.

First, your if — if students can decode. Exactly. I deal all the time with people of all ages who cannot decode because they were never taught. A lot of school boards figure if they buy into a reading program, not just AR, they have done their job, and sit back and wait for decoding to come by magic, which of course it doesn’t. So that’s the first problem — what do you do with this expensive wonderful upper-grade program when you have students who cannot manage Grade 1? What do you do about those who *think* they can read because of guesswork training, but are so inaccurate that they lose all message and meaning?

Second, as you mention about LD kids and lower level books. In any class you have a range of abilities, and you can bet your boots that their are some show-offs making fun of the lower level kids for reading “baby books”. This can be very anti-motivational for any kid’s improvement, LD or not. This of course depends on good teacher management and one can only hope, but there is still a strong stream out there of “encouraging competition” which is really depressing to those who always lose. What do you do about that?

Third, I have heard elsewhere on this board of serious problems with implementing AR — apparently the school has to pay for the number of titles on the system, so if a school has gone for the limited version, a kid may be a good and interested reader but the books he wants and likes to read may not be on the official list. As a student and teacher I can relate to this; you have a free choice but you don’t — a catch-22 that really gets my back up.

Finally, the issue I mentioned at first, about the over-stress on rewards and punishment. Now, I and my daughter and most of the rest of the family were always compulsive readers, the problem being to get us out of a book now and then. So hand us a library full of interesting books and we will be happy little clams. Give us a test now and then and we will do it because that’s what you have to do in school. But make a big fuss over charts and gold stars and points and all that, and we will resist because we resent being manipulated. If you wanted to find a way to *stop* us reading in school, over-stress on earning points would be a good way to go.
Something on this order happened to a younger relative of mine, a gifted dropout; his school system in the 70’s and 80’s believed in freedom of choice and creativity, but they couldn’t figure out what to do with his kind of creativity and they couldn’t guide him into positive choices; he resented the manipulative techniques they tried to use and made even worse choices.

Oh Victoria, I wish you could talk to some of our teachers. When a kid balks at reading the “yellow dot level” or whatever, they insist on putting up a fight— you may only choose books at that level. I say so what if you bomb the tests on books at higher levels or read easier books. If the kid wants to try Captain Underpants or Harry Potter, let him. My understanding is that AR should supplement a regular reading program, not substitute for one.

This is the same I find true for the reading program at my kids school Reading Counts. You only get credit if you read a book from the list and pass the test. They test you at the beggining of the year and assign a level, you can only read books from that level, none below and none above. Rewards are given once you reach a certain amount of points, ect a big deal made. My son who falls on the Autism spectrum tested at a second grade level but was never much interested in these books. He likes the WAYSIDE SCHOOL series, STAR WARS JEDI KNIGHT series, ect which are on a 4th grade level. We read together at home almost every night. I have found that he is able to read these level books with about 75% accuracy. I realize this is not considered an independent reading level but he so enjoys these books and truly does understand him. When reading WAYSIDE SCHOOL GETS STRANGER he was able to real almost all the words by himself other then the names. He knew the stories were ridiculous that no one has a pet orange, that teachers can’t make kids disappear, ect. He understood the book well. I found that he makes more progress in reading when I have him read books above (just a little) his tested grade level. When I have him read below to build fluency he just gets bored. Here is what I do. We will read the book he wants first together with me correcting immediately, then we will re-read it until he can read it on his own. He finds this much less boring then reading the “baby” books. We discuss comprehension questions after each chapter. This has seemed to work well with him. Problem is he must read X number of books in reading counts before he is able to move up, but he is not motiviated to read them. Luckily he does not seem phased by the lack of praise from the school.

Have you heard of Marvin Marshall….www.marvinmarshall.com? Well, it is pretty cool stuff. I used to do the money system in my class with a class store and all that fancy stuff. I saw a video on Marvin Marshall and adopted the philosophy and rules. I do it at home with my 3 kids. I’ve evolved once again to very few rewards and back to doing things because its right.

I could tell you more if interested but it has eliminated kids asking for stuff as a reward and instead intrinsically motivating the child to do something because it is the right thing to do.

EXAMPLE: It is great for kids who bug others. If they are on level B (bothering, bossing, bulleying) the child needs a boss teacher…or a boss parent. If acting out in public people need bosses…the police. SOmetimes kids think teachers are picking on them to behave. This program shows that the reason I’m not correcting “SUsie” is because Susie is already exhibiting appropriate behavior.

My favorite statement I learned is

RESPONSIBILITY FINDS A WAY….IRRESPONSIBILITY FINDS AN EXCUSE.
It’s posted in my room.

Cool stuff without rewards and kids like it. I’ll tell you more if interested because it’s late.
Michelle

My son won’t read independently for the very same reason. Nothing he can read interests him. So we read things just above his reading level, just like you.
And you know what, it works. It develops his vocabulary, his thinking skills, his decoding skills, and makes him feel more “normal”..

Glad to know your son has more sense than the school.

Beth

Lots to read at that website, and I like what I see. Thanks.

Isn’t it funny how our kids seem to know what they need? Both my boys with LD can tell you what works for them and what don’t. Good luck to you and your son.

On the other hand, very good readers may have some reason to want or need to back up sometimes. Since my mother taught us to read when Gerry was in Grade 1, before I started school, I could read anything I picked up. Same with my daughter. OK, sometimes we read serious novels, sometimes very complex fantasies with real and invented vocabulary through the roof, sometimes advanced and complex texts. But other days you feel a need for something different. I remember when I was twelve going into the library and reading through the “Madeleine” books, which are probably Grade 1 or 2. For some reason they held my attention at the time, maybe because of the rhyme pattern. Nowadays I read and re-read the Harry Potter books for pleasure — they happen to be very well-constructed novels, whatever their reading level. Grace read Tolkien with great interest when she was eight or nine (good age for fantasy) and she also read (ugh) Babysitters Club books which were all the rage among her friends. Encourage kids to try new things, but relax when their choices vary.