PG and Audiblox??

I personally would not do them at the same time. The main reason is that Audiblox requires the child to sit and do exercises for an hour a day. I ordered Audiblox but returned it as I just did not know that we would do the exercises as intensively as is required. I also have not seen enough research on Audiblox. I know the results of Phono-Graphix for sure. It teaches a child how to read. Obviously I do not know anything about your child. But if it were me, I’d be focusing on learning to present PG well and try to teach my child to read. When you finish PG, then you can see if anything else is needed.

Janis

and would not be confusing.

Nancy

Audiblox does not teach reading directly. Rather, it works on strengthening a wide variety of subskills necessary for ease of academic learning.

Audiblox recommends a minimum of 1/2-hour five days a week. It does not require an hour per day, although many families do it that way in order to see gains sooner. For most children, it takes 30 to 40 training hours before there are significant gains, and some take longer.

Reading Reflex and Audiblox work on different skills, so they are complimentary.

Several parents on the Special Needs homeschooling board at www.vegsource.com have experience with both Reading Reflex and Audiblox. You might want to post there, or check old posts at that site.

Nancy

I should also clarify that if this mom is homeschooling, then perhaps it might not be too much to do both. But in no way would my 6 year old last year have been able to handle an hour of Audiblox and Phono-Graphix in the evening after a full day of school.

I will also say that Susan of Audiblox was the one who gave me the schedule of one hour per day, but they do recommend varied lessons for different children. So it would really be impossible to know how much would be recommended for this particular child.

Janis

that it would be too much to expect after a full day of school. Most of the families I work with homeschool, or concentrate on therapies during the summer months.

Nancy

I agree with you Nancy. I did PG first and if a child was struggling with reading and I had to pick one program it would be PG.

After PG my son still had deficits. It did now solve everything.

He and I both saw improvement with audiblox after 3 weeks. We stopped to do vision therapy. I think the only way to do both at the same time would be if you were homeschooling or in the summer, or if you were highly disciplined.
I will do audiblox with vision therapy in the summer.

Janis there is alot of research on cognitive enhancement in general. Mostly done by a man named Fruerstein and his colleagues. Audiblox and PACE are an offshoot of that work. This work is not done by educators. It is more in the field of neuroscience.

There are some amazing things happening in the field of neuroscience that has not reached the classroom, yet.

Linda,

I am not in any way against Audiblox. But some children simply need PG. If that solves the reading problems, then great! Some children just need a structured, systematic, phonetic reading program. I just do not believe in doing random programs without thorough diagnosis and careful treatment plans. I just see a lot of parents with good intentions go for any program they hear of in hopes that it might help their child. And that program may or may not be appropriate for that particular child. Sort of like having a sick child and closing your eyes and picking whatever medicine you reach first on the shelf. Not all medicines work for all illnesses.

Janis

I’m just going to jump in here. I too taught my daughter to read using PG and it was great! I thought that was it and now she could handle her school work. Wishful thinking! I soon discovered she has a speech/language learning disability(or difference) which was impacting her keeping up with her classmates. Yes, she could read well, but her comprehension, math, etc. was not up to grade level.

I looked into PACE and decided that the program is probably good, it was 1) too expensive and 2) required a lot of time for the child (and parent).

I found out about Audiblox on this BB and looked into it. It was reasonably priced and the people there were very helpful. Because of my daughter’s homework situation (a lot of it) we could only do Audiblox 4 days a week for about 30 minutes a day. After about four months (it’s longer for a language impaired child) everything started coming together. Her principal stopped me when I was at her school (she was in 5th grade then) and commented about how please everyone was about how well my daughter was doing in school. She was doing grade level work then and she wasn’t in 4th grade.

We did Audiblox for 2 years and yes it was a struggle, but I believed it would pay off and it did! She’s in 7th grade now. She was on the honor roll one semester in 6th grade and consistently gets A’s and B’s for her work. She still has a way to go on her comprehension problem, but she has come so far and I am so proud of her.

I don’t believe Audiblox is for every child, but it certainly helps with sequencing, memory, processing, etc. All of the foundational skills a child needs to succeed in school.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

Yes, but the unfortunate reality is that those who test these kids are often unaware of the programs that are available. Some don’t even refer children with obvious auditory issues to an audiologist or visual processing issues to a developmental optometrist.

The parent needs to become educated on the research about what works for what types of issues. Even then this is at times hit or miss but the reality is only 10% of sped kids go to college so what is the point of a college fund if you don’t address the underlying issues.

I know people that spend thousands on testing with very little actual help.

Seems to me that many are satisfied to get a diagnosis without a treatment.

One needs to be aware of the research that shows what works for what types of problems and make informed choices.

My post was just pointing out that there is research available on cognitive enhancement approaches just as there is research that supports the need for phonological processing.

You can form new neural pathways and some kids (like mine) have more complex problems than just phonological processing issues.

Pat,

You had the same experience as me. The only difference is that my son’s problems were not language based but more visual processing. I still remember thinking, if I can just teach him to read he will be just fine. I believed that with my whole being. He was just so bright. Everyone who knew him couldn’t even believe that he struggled in school at all.

I taught him to read with PG and that was great. When we were done we still had a mountain to climb.

We are still climbing. Thank you for sharing your success story.

The problem is the state of the knowledge. There is no way to know exactly what program will help your child. Children seem to get different benefits, even with similar profiles, from the same program. I know—we have done lots of them—and made mostly good decisions. But even the one big mistake we made (doing PACE prematurely) was made with lots of informaton. I knew that PACE didn’t work well with kids with sensory integration deficits. But both I and the therapist who had worked with him misjudged the extent to which his sensory problems were resolved. I did PACE rather than Audioblox because of the strong AP piece PACE has—and my son has CAPD. Of course, then he couldn’t do it….and we’d probably been better off with Audioblox which has a stronger sensory motor component, even if it didn’t address all his deficits. But as they say, hindsight is 20-20.

PG alone was not nearly enough for my son. In fact, I would say that PG didn’t even begin to “stick” until we had addressed other underlying processing issues. Still, as others have said, it makes the most sense to do PG first, since for many children it will be enough. Those of us parents who hang around this board for long periods of time typically do not have those kinds of children!!

We’ve done Neuronet for 2 years now and have addressed a lot of the same issues as Audioblox addresses. (I was fascinated to realize that Linda and I were doing a lot of the same things for math). I would say from my experience it is very possible to do therapy on an ongoing basis during the school year. It is not easy, but possible.

Beth

And the expectations are often too low for LD kids. My son’s resource teacher, who has a masters degree, told me she was taught that LD kids can’t learn their multiplication tables and should be provided tools to assist them. But, of course, our standardized testing doesn’t permit this!!

My son has learned his multiplication tables. It has taken all year and has required work on the underlying sequencing deficits as well as a rather laborious process to internalize the facts. And so yes, flashing cards all day won’t teach an LD child like mine their multiplication tables. But does that mean they can’t learn—no!!!!

Beth

beth,

from your posts it seems you have done many programs etc, i was wondering how old your son is and how many yrs did it take before you saw positive changes in fluency in reading and retention of math facts

i tutor kids and get kids like your son, and knowing how much practice, time etc is needed would be helpful when talking to parents

cuz most of them want me to “fix” their child in a few sessions and be on their way

can you give us tutors some realistic time frames, thanks Beth, i value your input

libby

Very true, Linda. The longer I teach, the more I see that few people in the field know what they are doing in regard to special education. I’ll give you one example of how I would apply what I said. My child has low auditory memory scores on the Test of Auditory Perceptual Skills. So she would be a good candidate for BrainBuilder. Several people have told me that Audiblox is stronger on the side of visual perceptual skills than auditory, so that is one reason I did not choose to go forward with it. With limited time, we all have to make the best therapy choices to match out children’s deficits.

Janis

Linda could you email me. [email protected]. I have a few questions about these programs and sounds like our children may have similar experiences. Thanks

Reading fluency has taken years of work. Ken Campbell told me a fourth grader should read 180 wpm. I timed myself reading Harry Potter and that’s what I read. So basically an adult level. He is not there yet—although he can read about 130-140 wpm. Two years ago it was about 40 wpm.

Comparatively, math facts have been easier for him, although not nearly typical. In third grade we used Math Facts the Fun way and he aced all his multiplication tests. The problem was he didn’t retain any of it!!! So last summer we started working on underlying sequencing skills, following doing Interactive Metronome. Linda says IM solved her son’s sequencing problems. I don’t think it did my son’s but I do think it made him teachable.

Basically, we have been working on multiplication facts and underlying skills since last July. It is a long process for a kid like him but we’re about done.

My son has more broad ranged deficits than most kids with LD so I would think he would be at the outside of usual times.

Beth

DEA has said several times that she got bursts of progress when she used sound therapy in conjunction with Brain Builder. I tried Brain Builder and really didn’t find it useful—another thing my son couldn’t do, although maybe we didn’t stick to it long enough!!! (but at least it is cheap) Interestingly, though, he was worse at the visual memory than auditory but then we had already done FFW by that time.

Beth

Beth,

I can’t remember if I told you this or not, but Rod told me that my informal visual sequential memory exrecise was not really visual since I used numbers. With numbers, you automatically convert them to words in order to remember them, so we’re back to language again! That’s why I decided not to do Audiblox since I am back to thinking Anna’s problems are all auditory or memory related. I haven’t touched the Brain Builder yet. The little APD boy I am tutoring with PG has low digit span scores, too, so I may try Brain Builder with him this summer when we have more time.

Anna goes for the reading eval on Monday. I guess I’ll know more about her then. I am curious to see the scores. She seems to be reading better, but the comprehension is just not there. I’m betting she needs advanced code work and definitely V/V. I am curious as to whether FF will be recommended. I may do it this summer if it is. But I’ll have to scramble to do the training so I can be the provider!

Janis

The man you are talking about his Reueven Feuerstein. He developed a program called Instrumental Enrichment to teach cognitive skills. I am trained in this program. I use it with my LD students. He is a fascinating man and the entire program is interesting. I will include the link to the website if you would like to read more about his work. http:\www.icelp.org. He is in Israel and developed his theory of cognitive modifiiability after working with children in Israel after World War II. It is very interesting reading.
Nan

How did you teach your son the multiplication facts. I work with students with LD and I am always looking for new ways to reach them. Multiplication facts are so important and any info you can give me will be appreciated.

I am a person who educates these kids and I will admit I don’t know every program out there. Also the way our education system is set up doesn’t always allow us to provide every program that is available. Money is always an issue and then there is the whole inclusion thing. And if programs take them outof the classroom too much they can also be frowned upon. I trymy best to keep updated on all programs but when I teach children with autism, aspergers, Traumatic Brain injury, hearing impaired, as well as students with LD, my time and my ability to provide for them all is somewhat limited. I am not complaining, I love my job and my students do make good progress, but it sure can be an uphill battle.

that it is excellent for development of higher order cognitive skills. This person was getting trained in PACE, because he believed PACE provided faster development of the lower order cognitive skills. He plans on providing PACE followed by IE for some of his kids.

Thanks for providing the website! I really want to learn more about IE.

Nancy

beth,

what age was your son when you first started aggressive therapy, did the school say something etc

personally i think age of beginning rememdiation is key,

a boy like your son needed intervention at age 3 or 4, did he get it then

curious Beth, you do not need to reply is these questions are too personal,

i have a 6th grade student now, suffering from dysteachia,

we started with PG about 5 months ago, he is doing well, course not great and it makes me wonder, if this boy had received PG at age 5, would he now be a skilled reader, i tend to think yes

mother said the only method he had was guessing whole words

but he is the firstkid i have gotten who was so old and not reading at all

his age actually now works in his favor, he can sit still, i can talk to him like an adult, he understands the job ahead and never complains

course he is a blank slate, no education has occured for this boy, he knows no math at all, knows little of geography or anything, the school has been talking around him for 6 yrs

i see him once a week, he does not have a mother like you, they are on welfare,
mom works from7-7 and weekends, so it is an uphill battle

but information from you is very very helpful, what grade is your son in now, what level does he read on,

now the only therapy this boy is going to have is me and PG, there is no money for anything else, as is i tutor him for free

he had a state grant but that was over some months ago

i have him doing some writing now, analogies, spelling, talking, etc

libby

My Neuronet provider said the same thing about visual memory—most people translate it to verbal sequences so it is actually very hard to separate visual from auditory. I think the real issue is visualization. I don’t know if Audioblox actually teaches this (Brainbuilder doesn’t) but that is the skill you need to hold lots of information in your head visually. We’ve been working on visualization and I can see Nathan’s comprehension is def. getting better so I do think this is an area that can be improved upon.

Becoming the FFW provider is not very difficult. They sent me a book and I had to take an online test. The real test was doing the computer tasks. Took me a bit of time, but then I am pretty incompetent at computers.

Beth

Libby,

I don’t mind answering. My son was classified as speech impaired as a preschooler and received school district services. He had one on one speech therapy for a little over a year before starting K. We gave him piano lessons at that time (he wanted to play like the pianist at church) because we knew all the research on brain functioning and music. Frankly, we also thought there was more than speech going on but didn’t know what to do. It was the piano that made us realize he had sequencing issues as well. He received an OT evaluation but didn’t receive OT services until K. As I look at videos taken at the time, my son acted much like a younger child. In retrospect, I think he would have been classified as PDD had we taken him to the right people.

He started K classified as speech impaired and received services in an inclusion classroom. His speech radically improved that year but all sorts of new problems serviced. He was classified as having a visual- motor disability.

Then we moved. He was pulled out for math and reading. It was a wasted year with an incompetent resource teacher. I became very frustrated and that’s when I found this board and took his education into my own hands. I have been working intensely with him since the end of first grade when we did Fast Forward, followed by a PG intensive. He is now in fourth grade.

My son has an exceptionally difficult profile even for an LD child. It sounds like the boy you are working with just wasn’t taught properly. If so, you can make a tremendous difference I think even with once a week tutoring. And this is a child who would certainly fail without your help. Can you get the mother to spend even ten minutes a day having him read to her? It would help greatly, as you know.

Beth

Yes, I agree that visualization improves memory.

There are different types of visualization too. Some can’t hold symbols, some can’t hold concepts.

You visualize these things in different areas of your brain. I learned this from someone at the LMB main offices who was kind enough to let me pick her brain for over an hour.

Beth, regarding our doing similar things with multiplication. I think it is very interesting that I see lots of overlap in different programs. We do some things in VT that are done in audiblox, and we will be doing visualization in VT later on in the program. As it was described to me it sounds akin to seeing stars.

I have learned so much about cognitive enhancement from both of you. Thanks!

This is a great website and he is a fascinating man. A true genius.

There are also some links on the website that brought me to some research that was fascinating. I read an article from a neuroscientist about the gap between neuroscience and the classroom.
It helped me to understand that I had to close that gap, at least for my son.

libby — I work with this kind of student — have never had a Grade 6 non-reader but had a Grade 4 total non-reader.

I have typed up outlines of what I do. I use materials that are not terribly expensive. If you would like these outlines, just email me and I’ll download them to you.

Sandy,

I did this at home—practically everyday for months—so I don’t know how useful it will be to you in a classroom. This is a modification of a message I posted on math board. There are some other posts regarding this same issue that you might want to look at. My gut is that you might try the skip counting in the classroom—forward and back—followed by chanting facts. Realize my son has more severe than typical LD problems and we always have to go the extra mile.

1. We started with skip counting 2 and 3’s to a metronome. We did it to 100. I had to start with a sheet of paper with the numbers on it in boxes. So it would be 2 4 6 8 10
12 14 16 18 20

and so on. When he could do this easily in time, I had him do the same thing without the sheet of paper. I would chime in with him if he missed one.

2. When he mastered 2’s, we did 3’s and 4’s using the same process.

This process helped get his sequencing down (he always understood the concept of multiplying).

3. Other ways to do this: Shirin, who often posts, had her daughter read the numbers up to 100 and back off a board. When she could do that easily she had her do it without the board—and then count by 2’s forward and back, 5’s and 10’s (as I recall).

3. We then did Victoria’s exercise of chanting the tables except we had him do it on the trampoline. (Now an oversized ball). My son’s motor system is very involved in his deficits and incoprorating motor activity makes a tremendous difference in his automating learning. I know Victoria and others have had success with just the chanting but this process works better for my son. At this point, my son would know that 7 x 3 was one of the 3 numbers but would guess the wrong one.

We did 2 X 0 = 0
2 x 1 = 2
2 x 2 = 4

We had tried this earlier but without the skip counting first, he just couldn’t do it. I think building the sequencing first is critical for learning the multiplication tables.

I also have had him skip count forward and back (realize that we only did through 4’s with metronome). Joan told me to do it backwards as well and I do think it helps automate the facts.

4. Then we moved to paper for those facts that were mastered doing the chanting. I have sixty math facts written out for 0 - 6’s, one to a line with space in between. They are on three pages. They have the answer on them. I read the problem and he tells me the answer. I time it with a radio shack timer. Then he does the same thing with the sheets without the answer on them. Basically, he is seeing the problem at the same time as he is hearing it.

5. Once the two times are equal, I will move him to Quarter Math. His Neuronet therapist told me to do number 4 first because he is hearing and seeing the facts at the same time.

6. We now are finishing up doing 8’s and 9’s on the ball. We will move to facts on paper during break. I actually had got him through 8’s and 9’s on ball (chanting stage) and then neglected to go on to paper stage because of pressure to prepare for our standardized high stake exams. I tried then picking up with paper stage and it didn’t work. He just was making no progress. So I had to back track. Makes me realize that you can’t stop with just chanting, or not at least my child.

Beth

I consider the overlap a type of reliability–people with different types of training are converging on the same things.

Does Audioblox teach visualization or does it just give more and more blocks and hope you can do it, if you know what I mean? My son could use more work on it and I am trying to decide how to approach it this summer. I think there are still some gaps that Audioblox or PACE could address. I have PACE (and am trained in it) but I find the fact that Audioblox was developed for preschool children attractive. That means my son could do it!!! Or I might focus entirely on visualization and comprehension with a program like Mindprime or V & V supplemented by Rewards for multisyllable work.

The only reason I am thinking of a more general cognitive program is that math is again becoming a challenge. He has those multiplication facts down but fractions has been slow going and now we start long division. He seems to take an awfully long time to “get it”, although he is getting it while last year he never did. I would just like it to be easier. It is hard for a kid to not be good at either math or reading!!

Beth

I am not familiar with PACE but from what I can tell it seems to start at a higher level than audiblox.
With audiblox you could move very slow. They actually encourage this. They don’t want you to get to skip count until counting by ones back and forth is completely automatic.

I think it encourages visualization, although I don’t know if it teaches it directly. You have to visualize to remember the visual sequences. There is no getting around it. I tried doing this and if I didn’t see the blocks in my head I could not remember them.
They do alot with visual spatial exercises, automating left, right, behind, and front etc so that may help. They mentioned that alot of adults don’t even have these concepts automatic.
You can start very slow with just remembering two blocks then three and so on.

Honestly, I think it is more cognitive then sensory where as the work we are doing with VT is more sensory with a little cognitive thrown in. I think alot of people percieve it as a visual program but it is more a memory, sequencing, logic and reasoning program.
I was reading Cory’s journal on the audiblox website and the instructor mentioned that the sensory aspects are more difficult to remediate. I found that interesting.

My son can chant skip counting part but I realized it wasn’t automatic when we set up the blocks and made him count them by 4s. He had to touch each block as if each one represented 4 and then go up and back. When he was 2 he could count to 20. The only thing is, I learned later he wasn’t actually counting. He just memorized the numbers and they held no meaning for him.

He was just saying something he memorized.

wow beth, you are one dedicated mom, i have never had one parent do even one half of what you do,

all seem to think the kids will fix up in matter of months, go to school and get A’s

i am lucky if they show up for tutoring on time, most are late, with allkinds of excuses

had to drop someone at karate, had to do this, had to do that

when in fact the only thing they should be doing is reading

but i often hear the arguement, the only thing he does well is hockey, so we are not dropping it,

maybe that is why he does it well, the consistency

but they do not see the analogy with reading nor do they want to see it

keep it up beth and keep posting, as a tutor i can learn a lot from you and what parents can and cannot do

libby

Obsessed, others may say. I have a couple of friends whose kids are LD. High school was horrid—both ended up on prozac and in counseling and there was a lot of pain in those families. I thought I could pay the piper now or later. Of course, when I started I thought it would be much easier than it has been. I thought he’d do Fast Forward and then an PG intensive and that would be that. I was dreaming!!

My LD son and other two children have activities too. I think the difference is I fit the other activities around therapy, tutoring, reading ect. while many of your parents do it the other way. I am careful in my choices and never let my son do more than either he or I can handle and still get therapy/tutoring done.

Beth

I think we would have been better off originally doing Audioblox instead of PACE because it seems to go in smaller increments. But I know from working with my son that just because you HAVE to visualize to do something, doesn’t mean he will. Abs. everything seems to have to be explicitly taught. So I am reluctant to do the Audioblox program till we get the visualizing piece down more firmly. I really think that is his next huge hurdle.

He has his right and left pretty much automated from a combination of exercises we’ve done. I am not sure what the hang up is with the math—I suspect it is conceptual/logic skills, because he really does have the sequencing piece down now. He just takes longer to catch on to things—like you’d expect from a kid with a below average IQ, except he is very average.

Do you think you could do the logic piece of the program by itself? I have some of the PACE exercises that work on nonverbal logic. Maybe I could do a logic/visualization summer. Combine a visualizing program and verbal logic (Language Wise and other things) and nonverbal logic. I also have Zoobinis which works on nonverbal logic.

What do you think?

Beth

I had posted a bunch of logic exercises that I made up myself a while back. I think doing them did help my son.

.

Hi Beth,
The way I’ve been dealing with math is finding a way to simplify the concepts and also coming up with “tricks” that may help my son memorize, understand or check what he’s doing. I’ve noticed it actually “helps” that I’m weak in math because I can share with him techniques I use to help myself with the concepts. Interestingly, although math has been a tremensous weakness of mine, I recently started taking a “refresher” math course and I’m finding it much easier to learn arithmatic and algebra now that I’m an adult.

An example of one thing I’m trying to do in the hopes it will help later is — since we’re still working on multiplication facts, I figured I might as well point out factors at the same time. It’s not a big leap from basic multiplication and it will help with division.

I was doing OK with the math until we hit fractions. Then I couldn’t seem to teach him. I have tutor that I hired, a reading specialist but who also taught fifth grade. She has been working on math with him. I also ordered Marilyin Burns book on teaching fractions. Part of the problem here has been very simple things like adding fractions vertically is easier than horizontally AND the workbook had them horizontally. Well, it didn’t even occur to me that it was easier vertically, since I can do them either way. The tutor told me that.

They are doing long division after break and I am having his tutor come to preteach him. Hopefully, that will help.

I was always able to help my daughter with math so it isn’t my math skills but rather my ability to reframe things in terms he can understand. I certainly wasn’t a whiz at math but elementary school math is very easy for me—if I ever had tricks, I have long since forgotton them.

I did have problems with Algebra in high school and yet easily aced college algebra. I think it is easier to handle the math with a more adult mind.

Beth

While this has been a fascinating discussion, this board is for the discussion of teaching reading. You are welcome to continue to talk about teaching multiplication and such, but please move it over to the Teaching Math board.

Thanks!

Jessica
Forum Moderator

Sorry. Someone asked me about reading and math fluency timetables. I answered and then was asked how. The answer to that question certainly didn’t fit this bulletin board, I agree.

Beth

Sandy,
I was just thinking you could have the entire class “skip count” out loud daily. It wouldn’t take a large amount of time and I’ve noticed that kids often pick up on things like this quickly.

I recently worked in a 2nd grade class that had a daily reminder “do’s and don’ts list” they recited prior to both recess and lunch. It was quite long and the kids had that list firmly committed to memory.

Beth,
I think the trick is simplification and finding out exactly where the difficulties are.

My son had a little difficulty with long division (his school hasn’t done fractions yet, but like you, I want to prepare him a little in the hopes it will be easier later).

I also volunteer at the school and tutor a girl in my son’s class. What I’ve done with both my son and this girl is break everything down in increments, find out where they are having the greatest difficulty, and then figure out the best way for them to “get it” in that area. What do they need to ask themselves at what point? How can they avoid making the same error each time? What I noticed is that some things I’ve used to help my son aren’t as effective with this other child.

And, with regard to the areas where she had difficulty, I tried a couple of different approaches, tested her to see what made sense or what helped her to figure it out and then practice, practice, practice.

For example, in long division this girl had difficulty with the steps. So I helped her come up with a system for her to double check her steps and make sure she didn’t miss one.

For my son, the most difficult thing was that he sometimes wanted to use a larger number. For example, for a problem like 111 divided by three he would sometimes start off with using 4. So for him I had to point out, if you can’t subtract you know you need to use a smaller number. And then practice, practice, practice….like everything else! We can’t get away from constant and unrelenting practice. Sometimes it’s disturbing at how simple I have to make it. But I do believe that if these kids work really hard and practice A LOT they can do it.

When working with fractions, in arithmetic and later in algebra, they are most often lined up horizontally for a good reason. The horizontal lineup (with a horizontally-drawn fraction bar, not a slash) puts all the numerators on one level and all the denominators on a different level. This is important because the numerators and denominators have completely different meanings — the denominator tells what size parts, and the numerator tells how many to take — and they act very differently; just for one example, in addition you first must have the same denominator and then you add the numerators but the senominator stays the same, not added. I stopped after reading your post and visualized a vertical fraction problem, and said “ouch!” because the mumerator/denominator distinction can get very confusing. If you figure he is gfoing to be able to do algebra later, he really needs to get used to a horizontal lineup — no other way in algebra. A first thought: first let him get fairly comfortable with working with fractions, then give him some problems horizontally and have him do the work both ways until he can switch.

.

I prefer them horizontally for the reasons you state. I think he find it easier vertically because he can see more easily the process of changing them to a common denominator.

Now we’re on to long division….and I wouldn’t say he completely mastered fractions. Guess I will work on fractions over the summer with him, using the materials I ordered. Fractions have only begun, I know.

Beth

You are a good detective!! I think I don’t always break math down far enough. It isn’t obvious to me. That just suggests I need to have good materials. When he was having trouble with time, I went back to a second grade Singpore math book. A few pages of that (which was broken down more) and he could tackle fourth grade time. Before that, his teacher had gone over and over it with him and he just didn’t get it.

Beth

http://www.resourceroom.net/Math/1timestables.asp
has some online practice that might help, and
http://www.resourceroom.net/Products/toolstimes.asp has the intro to the book to download that has a bunch of ideas and some sample chapters.

Beyond the materials, try to get your son to help you figure out where he’s not getting it and then start trying different approaches at simplification. Sometimes one approach will only cause more confusion, that’s when I try to come up with another simple approach. Each time I really talk with the kid and test, trying to figure out how the child is seeing it, where exactly is the confusion? They can help figure it this out and can help determine what approach may help them learn the material.

Don’t be afraid to try a few different approaches and see how far you can simplify the problems. Once you have a series of steps that make sense to the child then have them practice as much as possible.

One more thing — I find the kids really seem to enjoy going over these problems on a dry erase board (and different pens, sometimes by using different colors it’s easier to break down the steps).