Our 17 year old daughter is Certified LD, but she doesn’t seem to fit any profile that we have seen. She would “probably never learn to read and write we were told. Today she reads exceptionally well, likes to read and does—lots. She writes beautifully. She has a superior vocabulary and uses it well. We have had her in 6 or 7 different learning environments—avoiding at great cost the traditional class room situation—succeeding thus in preserving her self esteem and saving her the great pain that children afflict upon one another. She processes information differently—cannot handle sequential verbal instruction. She is probably age 12 socially—mostly oblivious to the social cues that are natural to most of us. She has no firm grasp of social proprieties—has only one true friend who she can be with only occassionly. We think she will, in a maturing that comes with time, overcome these problems as well.However—can anybody out there help us with this. MATH! She has always had a calendar gift—she has seemed always to be able to know months, weeks, days of the week, and to keep calendar track of events, backwards and forwards and this is a complete mystery, for other than this there seems to be no numbers in her pretty head. Nobody yet that has worked with her has a clue. She has been in a type of therapy for years that includes math—today she still cannot make change for a dollar. We had her for two years in Kumon with zero results.Perhaps there are some on this list who can point us to some methods, systems, programs that we don’t know about—put us on a trail. Our daughter is in a special school right now (one on one teaching avilability, but not LD trained) and she is technically in 10th grade high school—except in math. In math she is nowhere and they have given up totally on trying to teach her math and science—so we have her a half day there and several hours each week in therapy sessions. She does get around on the computer very well, which may be a factor in our search for some answers to this black hole math thing we are trying to understand. Any help will be much appreciated. Thank you.Bob Buckner— [email protected]
Re: Utter Math Deficiency--age 17
I don’t know what all you have looked at or tried over the years, so I will just suggest a number of things that come to mind.Has she been assessed for CAPD? Problems with verbal instructions (especially multi-step instructions) and socialization problems are typical of CAPD. Most audiologists do not have the specialized training for this kind of assessment. You can go to http://pages.cthome.net/cbristol/ for some information about CAPD, and a link to a search option to find CAPD audiologists in your geographic area. This evaluation is often covered by medical insurance, and would probably be worthwhile just to rule it out.Another good site for information on how auditory problems can affect behavior and learning is Connor’s Corner, at http://www.ccnet.com/~njones/auditory.html.Has she been assessed for Asperger’s? A lack of social “know how” is associated with Asperger’s, which is on the mild end of autism spectrum disorders. There are programs which specifically teach social skills to children with this kind of problem. (Connor’s Corner might have links to this kind of program also.)Have you tried Math-U-See (http://www.mathusee.com) at home? This approach uses manipulatives in a very incremental way to build a concrete understanding of math concepts. The math teacher who developed it used it successfully with his son, who has Downs Syndrome.A program such as PACE (http://www.mentalskills.com) can help a great deal in developing sequential processing skills and other cognitive skills helpful with math. If it is too expensive, Audiblox (http://www.audiblox2000.com) is a good home program, although not as comprehensive or intensive as Pace. My own daughter had trouble making change until she went through PACE.Mary: Our 17 year old daughter is Certified LD, but she doesn’t seem to fit
: any profile that we have seen. She would “probably never
: learn to read and write we were told. Today she reads
: exceptionally well, likes to read and does—lots. She writes
: beautifully. She has a superior vocabulary and uses it well. We
: have had her in 6 or 7 different learning environments—avoiding
: at great cost the traditional class room situation—succeeding
: thus in preserving her self esteem and saving her the great pain
: that children afflict upon one another. She processes information
: differently—cannot handle sequential verbal instruction. She is
: probably age 12 socially—mostly oblivious to the social cues that
: are natural to most of us. She has no firm grasp of social
: proprieties—has only one true friend who she can be with only
: occassionly. We think she will, in a maturing that comes with
: time, overcome these problems as well.: However—can anybody out there help us with this. MATH! She has
: always had a calendar gift—she has seemed always to be able to
: know months, weeks, days of the week, and to keep calendar track
: of events, backwards and forwards and this is a complete mystery,
: for other than this there seems to be no numbers in her pretty
: head. Nobody yet that has worked with her has a clue. She has been
: in a type of therapy for years that includes math—today she still
: cannot make change for a dollar. We had her for two years in Kumon
: with zero results.: Perhaps there are some on this list who can point us to some methods,
: systems, programs that we don’t know about—put us on a trail. Our
: daughter is in a special school right now (one on one teaching
: avilability, but not LD trained) and she is technically in 10th
: grade high school—except in math. In math she is nowhere and they
: have given up totally on trying to teach her math and science—so
: we have her a half day there and several hours each week in
: therapy sessions. She does get around on the computer very well,
: which may be a factor in our search for some answers to this black
: hole math thing we are trying to understand. Any help will be much
: appreciated. Thank you.: Bob Buckner— [email protected]
Re: Utter Math Deficiency--age 17
Urgh! This is a hard one. The suggestions you have from the other posters all make sense — look at these programs and go for it.My two cents’ worth: I work as a professional math tutor and occasional college instructor. Literally 99 times out of 100 when somebody comes and tells me they or their child is behind in math and the remediation isn’t helping, a very little investigation finds that what they are trying to “remediate” was never learned in the first place, so of course it can’t be repaired; the actual problem lies two levels or more back. For example, I won’t take any more kids in public high school algebra 1; they don’t need algebra help, what they are failing is basic fractions, number sense, and knowing that multiplication and addition are not the same operation, but they won’t accept that.The point that making change is a very sophisticated skill and the question that first should be asked is “Can she count?” is right on the money. Even that may be a bit advanced — depends on the student.An example: Working with a kid, age 12, with a chromosomal irregularity (Kleinfelter’s) I was able to get his reading working to a reasonable degree, Grade 3 or 4, and then started in on math. I found that he had no verbal sequencing/ordering knowledge AT ALL; he could not even tell you whether you had breakfast before or after lunch, or whether you put on your socks before or after your shoes. This meant he could not count back and subtract at all, of course. I also found that he could not count accurately past six — which sounded like “sex” to him, he knew it was a bad word and would get him in trouble and all thinking stopped. Considering that the special ed teacher claimed she had taught him all the addition facts and the times tables up to three times (How do you do 3x8 = 24 when you can’t count to ten??), he was totally confused and it took me a few weeks just to back up to the questions that needed answering. At this point, we re-started with the kindergarten-level math readiness books, the ones where you match the bees to the flowers and draw two dots in the circle beside the numeral 2.As I had succeeded in geting reading through to him, he trusted me and would do this in our private setting. We were beginning to make some real progress on what numbers mean when the school found yet another new program placement for him, so I don’t know where he went from there or if anyone followed it up.Anyway, my point in detailing this is that it is very hard for someone to look at a pretty, comparatively mature seventeen-year-old and have the guts to take her back to matching the bees to the flowers. But maybe this is where she is and where she has to start. Remember the old motto “more haste, less speed”. Invest two or three years now in getting primary school math facts under your belt, and you’ll be up there with most of the community college students I try to teach (most enter at Grade 3 to 5 level in math, really) and will be able to benefit from the developmental math classes offered to adults; if you keep trying to do multiplication or making change, you will probably just stick in the same rut.Good luck, and if you find anything working, I’d be happy to know.
Re: Utter Math Deficiency--age 17
Bob, You might check the LD IN DEPTH section of this website, and read up on nonverbal learning disabilities. Pay particular attention to the articles by Sue Thompson. You say your daughter has trouble with math. Does she also have trouble with spatial orientation? Is she driving?Does she get lost easily in buildings, or traveling from place to place? This kind of trouble can suggest a need for further evaluation for NLD. JJ: Our 17 year old daughter is Certified LD, but she doesn’t seem to fit
: any profile that we have seen. She would “probably never
: learn to read and write we were told. Today she reads
: exceptionally well, likes to read and does—lots. She writes
: beautifully. She has a superior vocabulary and uses it well. We
: have had her in 6 or 7 different learning environments—avoiding
: at great cost the traditional class room situation—succeeding
: thus in preserving her self esteem and saving her the great pain
: that children afflict upon one another. She processes information
: differently—cannot handle sequential verbal instruction. She is
: probably age 12 socially—mostly oblivious to the social cues that
: are natural to most of us. She has no firm grasp of social
: proprieties—has only one true friend who she can be with only
: occassionly. We think she will, in a maturing that comes with
: time, overcome these problems as well.: However—can anybody out there help us with this. MATH! She has
: always had a calendar gift—she has seemed always to be able to
: know months, weeks, days of the week, and to keep calendar track
: of events, backwards and forwards and this is a complete mystery,
: for other than this there seems to be no numbers in her pretty
: head. Nobody yet that has worked with her has a clue. She has been
: in a type of therapy for years that includes math—today she still
: cannot make change for a dollar. We had her for two years in Kumon
: with zero results.: Perhaps there are some on this list who can point us to some methods,
: systems, programs that we don’t know about—put us on a trail. Our
: daughter is in a special school right now (one on one teaching
: avilability, but not LD trained) and she is technically in 10th
: grade high school—except in math. In math she is nowhere and they
: have given up totally on trying to teach her math and science—so
: we have her a half day there and several hours each week in
: therapy sessions. She does get around on the computer very well,
: which may be a factor in our search for some answers to this black
: hole math thing we are trying to understand. Any help will be much
: appreciated. Thank you.: Bob Buckner— [email protected]
Re: Utter Math Deficiency--age 17
PASSWORD>aaeCZehjHBNioQuestion: Do you need it? I have had cashiers who are attending college who can’t make change. (The electronic cash register was broken). With calculators and electronic cash registers, etc. is it that important anymore? I have seen the “math” courses in high school and they seem like an utter waste of time. Is the school making this necessary for graduation? If not, I’d forget it. If she does that well on the computer I bet she can learn to use one of the “does everything” calculators.
Re: Utter Math Deficiency--age 17
PASSWORD>aaJpR4GkNNqY.: Our 17 year old daughter is Certified LD, but she doesn’t seem to fit
: any profile that we have seen. She would “probably never
: learn to read and write we were told. Today she reads
: exceptionally well, likes to read and does—lots. She writes
: beautifully. She has a superior vocabulary and uses it well. We
: have had her in 6 or 7 different learning environments—avoiding
: at great cost the traditional class room situation—succeeding
: thus in preserving her self esteem and saving her the great pain
: that children afflict upon one another. She processes information
: differently—cannot handle sequential verbal instruction. She is
: probably age 12 socially—mostly oblivious to the social cues that
: are natural to most of us. She has no firm grasp of social
: proprieties—has only one true friend who she can be with only
: occassionly. We think she will, in a maturing that comes with
: time, overcome these problems as well.: However—can anybody out there help us with this. MATH! She has
: always had a calendar gift—she has seemed always to be able to
: know months, weeks, days of the week, and to keep calendar track
: of events, backwards and forwards and this is a complete mystery,
: for other than this there seems to be no numbers in her pretty
: head. Nobody yet that has worked with her has a clue.Consider taking a much broader perpective on math. I have known people that sucked at “normal” math aka arithmetic and procedures, yet they excelled in advanced math and engineering type things.I would pursue the calendar stuff along with experiementing with geometry and simple algebra with a balance and real world objects. Math is really the study of patterns and NOT merely the curriculum of schools.
: It’s a interesting question and your description of it as a “black hole” makes sense.I’d need to ask this. Can she count? Making change is actually a much harder task than you might think. If she can count, I’d know where I’d start but if she can’t, I’d need to think a bit.The calendar is really a very different task from math, actually. Even though we assign numbers to our calendar, our calendar is really an arrangment of space or a spatial task first.Our 17 year old daughter is Certified LD, but she doesn’t seem to fit
: any profile that we have seen. She would “probably never
: learn to read and write we were told. Today she reads
: exceptionally well, likes to read and does—lots. She writes
: beautifully. She has a superior vocabulary and uses it well. We
: have had her in 6 or 7 different learning environments—avoiding
: at great cost the traditional class room situation—succeeding
: thus in preserving her self esteem and saving her the great pain
: that children afflict upon one another. She processes information
: differently—cannot handle sequential verbal instruction. She is
: probably age 12 socially—mostly oblivious to the social cues that
: are natural to most of us. She has no firm grasp of social
: proprieties—has only one true friend who she can be with only
: occassionly. We think she will, in a maturing that comes with
: time, overcome these problems as well.: However—can anybody out there help us with this. MATH! She has
: always had a calendar gift—she has seemed always to be able to
: know months, weeks, days of the week, and to keep calendar track
: of events, backwards and forwards and this is a complete mystery,
: for other than this there seems to be no numbers in her pretty
: head. Nobody yet that has worked with her has a clue. She has been
: in a type of therapy for years that includes math—today she still
: cannot make change for a dollar. We had her for two years in Kumon
: with zero results.: Perhaps there are some on this list who can point us to some methods,
: systems, programs that we don’t know about—put us on a trail. Our
: daughter is in a special school right now (one on one teaching
: avilability, but not LD trained) and she is technically in 10th
: grade high school—except in math. In math she is nowhere and they
: have given up totally on trying to teach her math and science—so
: we have her a half day there and several hours each week in
: therapy sessions. She does get around on the computer very well,
: which may be a factor in our search for some answers to this black
: hole math thing we are trying to understand. Any help will be much
: appreciated. Thank you.: Bob Buckner— [email protected]