Triennial disagreement -- help!

Based on the splay of these scores, it’s a hard question. Your son is quite bright and some of his skills are impressively strong. If he is about to enter Middle School, he must be in 5th grade.Unless I’m reading your post wrong, he’s only behind in spelling and writing mechanics. Other skills are way above grade level.What prompted the testing? Is he doing poorly in terms of his grades? Is he frustrated or unhappy in school?There might be more information that what’s posted here but, as a Middle School teacher, I’d say that there are children going into Middle School who are weak spellers. I’ve never encountered any program that helps these kids although some people swear by one program or another. Wilson Language is “hot” right now and some people really believe it makes a difference and that’s possibly something you could ask for. It’s also true that it’s not uncommon for some kids to have weaker understanding of writing mechanics eg capitalization and punctuation at his age. Some schools, including my own, don’t stress those skills until Middle School. Impressive is that fact that his usage is at 4.7 grade level when his understanding is deemed only 2.6. That suggests again that your son is a very bright young man.I’m not a psychologist but based on my teaching experience, I’d need a little more information about what’s going wrong in his day to day school life to make suggestions as to what programs might be helpful to him. His test scores alone are not alarming ones and some of his test scores suggest this young man is blessed with many gifts that actually put him way ahead of the pack - not trailing it.: Testing has just been completed for my son, “Raven.” As far
: as the school is concerned, he doesn’t need any help, outside of
: some speech therapy. When I look at the scores, I see a kid about
: to enter middle school who needs a LOT of help. He has made zero
: progress in one area, and very minimal (less than one year)
: progress in most others. His FSIQ (WISC) is 133, and on the
: Woodcock achievement testing his grade equivalents range from 2.6
: to 13.6. But the broad scores are at grade level (5th) or slightly
: above, so he’s doing “fine.”: Bringing up that broad reading score are decent Passage Comprehension
: (11.0) and Reading Vocabulary (8.9).: Bringing up Broad Written Language is “Writing Samples”
: (13.6). Of course, he can’t SPELL anything in writing (2.9), and
: knows next to nothing about punctuation and capitalization (2.6)
: and only a little more about usage (4.7). But evidently the
: content is great.: The resource assistance that he’s had has not done a whole heck of a
: lot of good — he’s actually REGRESSING, relative to his age peers
: (nevermind the IQ peers). And now they don’t think he even needs
: that much.: I know I need to ask for more….. but what? What sort of a
: professional can look at test scores and psychological reports and
: help to design an appropriate program?: I appreciate your assitance.

: All,: Testing has just been completed for my son, “Raven.” As far
: as the school is concerned, he doesn’t need any help, outside of
: some speech therapy. When I look at the scores, I see a kid about
: to enter middle school who needs a LOT of help. He has made zero
: progress in one area, and very minimal (less than one year)
: progress in most others. His FSIQ (WISC) is 133, and on the
: Woodcock achievement testing his grade equivalents range from 2.6
: to 13.6. But the broad scores are at grade level (5th) or slightly
: above, so he’s doing “fine.”: Bringing up that broad reading score are decent Passage Comprehension
: (11.0) and Reading Vocabulary (8.9).: Bringing up Broad Written Language is “Writing Samples”
: (13.6). Of course, he can’t SPELL anything in writing (2.9), and
: knows next to nothing about punctuation and capitalization (2.6)
: and only a little more about usage (4.7). But evidently the
: content is great.: The resource assistance that he’s had has not done a whole heck of a
: lot of good — he’s actually REGRESSING, relative to his age peers
: (nevermind the IQ peers). And now they don’t think he even needs
: that much.: I know I need to ask for more….. but what? What sort of a
: professional can look at test scores and psychological reports and
: help to design an appropriate program?: I appreciate your assitance.I agree with the preceding comments by the other middle school teacher. I understand your concern for the below grade level areas, but do remember- each person has strengths and weaknesses in education- ergo our scientists, artists, engineers- writers, etc. remember Einstein?classifying your son will not really help with his progress. He is well suited for regular ed- one thing you could do is help him with his homework and/ or review his work in the areas where he is weak. Speak to his teachers and gather activities that may help him in the weak areas. If you do not have the time for this, ask one of his teachers to spend time with him after school- or hire a peer tutor ( someone high school students offer tutoring as a civil service project) and try to embrace the fact he is bright.

EMAILNOTICES>noYes, he’s in 5th now, entering 6th next fall.: Unless I’m reading your post wrong, he’s only behind in spelling and
: writing mechanics. Other skills are way above grade level.Actually, going by the WJ-R, he’s below grade level in 7 out of 13 subtests given. He made less than one year’s worth of progress in 5 out of the 9 subtests that had been previously administered. Of the four that were newly administered this year, all of them are well below grade level.I’d expect a child with a full scale IQ of at least 133 (ceilinged 3 subtests) with not much difference between his Verbal and Performance IQs to be gaining much more than a year’s worth of learning in a year’s time, appropriately taught. That’s why I am beginning to wonder about the appropriateness of his current placement/services.I know that the Woodcock isn’t the be-all and end-all picture of a kid’s academic performance. But I’d have to say that I don’t argue with the test’s conclusions in this case.He did manage to pick up more than 4 years in one area, and better than 2 in another, both within the past year. But he also picked up zero in another area, and 0.2 in yet another. Zero for a kid this bright is just not acceptable, even if I am his mother and biased as all heck :): What prompted the testing? Is he doing poorly in terms of his grades?
: Is he frustrated or unhappy in school?He was frustrated and unhappy three years ago. That prompted much of this testing. He had been receiving speech therapy prior to that time.: His test scores alone are not alarming ones and
: some of his test scores suggest this young man is blessed with
: many gifts that actually put him way ahead of the pack - not
: trailing it.Those test scores also make him realize more than most where his “holes” are, and give the bullies another handle for teasing him. He’ll do something particularly bright, and some bully or another will say “If you’re so smart, how come you can’t even spell ‘OF’??? HAHAHAHAHA!” (Yes, he missed ‘of.’ Also ‘by,’ ‘want,’ and any of a number of terribly simple words)Being “gifted” can be quite the double-edged blessing, and doesn’t necessarily put one head and shoulders “ahead of the pack.” There’s a lot of reading I’ve done on the social and emotional needs of gifted children, and a lot of research (finally) being done on twice-exceptional kids. They have complications that neither their normal-IQ LD peers nor their gifted neurotypical peers share. Much of it rings true as I think of my little guy.I appreciate your input.

: Actually, going by the WJ-R, he’s below grade level in 7 out of 13 subtests given. He made less than one year’s worth of progress in 5 out of the 9 subtests that had been previously administered. Of the four that were newly administered this year, all of them are well below grade level. He did manage to pick up more than 4 years in one area, and better than 2 in another, both within the past year. But he also picked up zero in another area, and 0.2 in yet another Yes, he’s in 5th now, entering 6th next fall. the test’s conclusions in this case.: He did manage to pick up more than 4 years in one area, and better
: than 2 in another, both within the past year. But he also picked
: up zero in another area, and 0.2 in yet another.Ah. I understand. For anyone to suggest programming, though, we’d need this information. It would help to know the seven areas he’s below grade level in and where he’s made zero gains and also where’s he gained a lot.In my experience, psychologists write long lists of suggested programming without having a clue as to whether a school can actually implement the suggestions. The only people sadly who know what can be easily implemented are people within the school and they’re not likely to be innovative in their suggestions.If you could find a retired teacher from your school or someone who has worked as an advocate in it, that would be your best bet for a person who could help you program. Other than that, ask around. Find other parents whose kids have had issues and see what they managed to wring out of the school. Or simply think big and figure out what you’d really like to have. Then ask for it. Be prepared to need to accept less but ask for the stars. All they can say is no.Good luck.: He was frustrated and unhappy three years ago. That prompted much of
: this testing. He had been receiving speech therapy prior to that
: time.: Those test scores also make him realize more than most where his
: “holes” are, and give the bullies another handle for
: teasing him. He’ll do something particularly bright, and some
: bully or another will say “If you’re so smart, how come you
: can’t even spell ‘OF’??? HAHAHAHAHA!” (Yes, he missed ‘of.’
: Also ‘by,’ ‘want,’ and any of a number of terribly simple words): Being “gifted” can be quite the double-edged blessing, and
: doesn’t necessarily put one head and shoulders “ahead of the
: pack.” There’s a lot of reading I’ve done on the social and
: emotional needs of gifted children, and a lot of research
: (finally) being done on twice-exceptional kids. They have
: complications that neither their normal-IQ LD peers nor their
: gifted neurotypical peers share. Much of it rings true as I think
: of my little guy.: I appreciate your input.

EMAILNOTICES>no…that’s my concern :)How does someone learn at a high school level in, say, American History or Science when their Word Attack skills are at grade 4.4, and other language arts mechanics are between 2nd and 4th grade?”Don’t instruct him at that level — he’s only in 5th grade” I can hear some replying. Does that mean he’s supposed to stop learning these subjects in the kind of detail and depth he needs for the next five years? Would we ask that of a normal-IQ learning-disabled kid? I hope not! But we used to… when we placed them in EMR classes, and academic learning was put on hold while their deficient areas were worked on — IF their deficient areas were worked on. Sometimes they were just thought to be retarded.That’s exactly the problem my son is facing, just a couple or three standard deviations over on the curve. I’ve “embraced the fact that he’s bright,” but as I mentioned in another reply, being bright is not exactly a no-strings-attached boon, especially for the learning disabled. He’s not going to be an “Oprah” kid. He doesn’t need to get into college next year, or anytime soon. But he does need to continue to learn, as do all children, and he is getting to the point where his coping strategies will no longer be even marginally workable.As for tutoring — believe me, we work on mechanics, at least until he grows frustrated and escapes. I’ve been “spending a little time with him” for years. I am not trained as any kind of LD specialist. Neither is the neighborhood teenager. I need the school’s help in that. However, the help we’ve supposedly gotten doesn’t seem to have been very helpful. They’re very nice people at his school. I LIKE them. And they genuinely seem to care about my son. But they don’t understand him, and they’re the first to admit that!That’s why I’m here — trying to get some ideas as to what to try next. Does he need intensive Orton-type instruction? Lindamood Bell? Typing and AlphaSmart (the school agrees with the AlphaSmart, but don’t feel he needs any instruction in typing…). Books on tape? A tape recorder? Instruction in organization? What would that look like?Thanks. I appreciate your note.

PASSWORD>aaI221mi7wL3IOk, I don’t know who I am talking to but here is my take on it. I work with an epileptic boy who is very gifted but has a hard time with spelling. He can spell phonetically but it isn’t the right combination of words or orthography. I have training in speech pathology and LMB techniques. I would latch onto a speech pathologist who can work him through his problems in spelling and writing mechanics. If they are willing to give you speech services then go for it.I work with many middle schoolers and have found much success using LMB LiPS in combination with Seeing Stars. I make a workbook as we discover all the sounds of the code of english. We do a lot of writing as we do lots of dictation and we talk about where they are messing up on their spelling. I also work on expressive and receptive language as we VV words, but your son doesn’t seem to need that because he is able to have good comprehension and has an extensive vocabulary. I work on their spelling while I am working on their language.Spelling is usually the last thing to come for many kids. I have seen many kids read better than they can spell. Your son has many strengths that will take him very far. I am up against the wall with my own child. She will be starting 7th grade and her scores aren’t as high as your son’s. I wish she had his vocabulary and ability to think and reason. As others have said, he has many gifts. I feel he can succeed with your support and with the support of a competent speech pathologist.

EMAILNOTICES>no: It would help to know the seven areas he’s
: below grade level in and where he’s made zero gains and also
: where’s he gained a lot.Here are the scores, expressed as grade equivalents. Please note that he’s older than average for his grade, having been born near the cutoff.Grade 5th[GAIN] SPECIFIC SUBTESTS THIS YEAR (LAST YEAR)[0.7] Letter-Word ID 5.8 (5.1)[4.1] Passage Comp. 11.0 (6.9)[0.2] Dictation 3.5 (3.3)[2.5] Writing Samples 13.6 (11.1)[2.3] Word Attack 4.4 (2.1)[1.5] Reading Vocab. 8.9 (7.4)[unk] Proofing 3.7 (not given)[unk] Punct & Cap. 2.6 (ng)[unk] Spelling 2.9 (ng)[unk] Usage 4.7 (ng)[0.9] Calculation 5.6 (4.7)[0.0] Applied Probs 8.0 (8.0)[0.9] Quant. Concepts 6.0 (5.1)Given how far behind the newly-tested skills are, and what I know of my son’s work, my working assumption is that there was less than a year’s gain in each of those [unk]s as well.As I think about it, it seems to me that he might need some algebra to apply to problems much beyond 8th grade. If so, then I am less concerned about lack of progress in Applied Problems, though perhaps it indicates that some algebra might be appropriate for him to tackle sometime soon. What does Applied Problems really measure?He’s made good progress in some of his deficiency areas. I remain concerned about the other deficiency areas, and I am very concerned that the school doesn’t seem to think that further assistance is necessary in any of the deficiency areas.Thanks for your help!

EMAILNOTICES>noPerhaps my concern sounds a little like the members of the SuperBeauties Club complaining that we plain folk just don’t understand how tough it can be to have it all, beauty-wise. I am sorry if it comes across that way. Having my son, if anything, helps me to appreciate that maybe the superbeauties and the superrich really do have problems :) Seriously, all I want to do is help him out. Having a suicidal 2nd grader was not much fun. I never want to see that again.The psych said that the only thing that gives him more of a headache than trying to interpret my son’s scores is trying to imagine BEING those scores. Scores that I haven’t listed, scores of basic neuro functioning, show significant problems in short-term memory, word retrieval, and auditory processing (but not long-term auditory processing).I don’t know what I’d do without the English language and memory skills I have. That probably gets in the way of understanding how my son gets by with the low-level skills he has. And I wonder how much of what he does that appears to be remarkable in testing is the result of his ability to find the holes in the way the test is administered, and not the result of any particular brilliance in, say, passage comprehension.We’ve lived at this address for a year, and he finally knows his phone number (specially selected to be easy to remember). Woo hoo. We’re working on our address still… yes, I have deep concerns about his welfare if he ever gets lost. He can’t always recall even the name of the city we’ve lived in for some years now, nevermind his address.: I would latch onto a speech
: pathologist who can work him through his problems in spelling and
: writing mechanics. If they are willing to give you speech services
: then go for it.Thank you — I will! I didn’t know that speech therapists worked on these things. He’s been getting that through the resource specialist.Thanks for your suggestions!

I am going to run down these in groups if that is okay. In general however, I can see why the school says he no longer qualifies for Special Education- except on isolated subtests, most of his scores aren’t out of the average range. I also understand your concerns since he clearly is a very capable child.I want to caution you about interpreting grade levels on the WJR as indicators of progress however. While the test is a good test, the grade levels are based on the population of the norming sample and are thus, for statistical reasons, the least accurate scores on the test. The standard scores or percentile ranks are, in that order, far more accurate scores. That being said:: Grade 5th: [GAIN] SPECIFIC SUBTESTS THIS YEAR (LAST YEAR): [0.7] Letter-Word ID 5.8 (5.1): [4.1] Passage Comp. 11.0 (6.9)[2.3] Word Attack 4.4 (2.1): [1.5] Reading Vocab. 8.9 (7.4)These scores suggest that you have a child who is able to read words at grade level with little difficulty and who has excellent strategies for comprehension, which likely include good reasoning skills, solid vocabulary and levels of background knowledge. His word attack skills are a little weak, but he applies his knowledge far more successfully in real words. Word Attack asks kids to decode nonsense words- sometimes kids need an opportunity to learn how to do this ( as well as why it is a worthwhile thing to do) before they can be successful at it. Otherwise, they can have a mental “this doesn’t make any sense” feeling that actually gets in the way. I don’t know if that is the case here- not knowing your son, but it is possible. By and large however- his reading is fine, and I wouldn’t anticipate problems with grade level text.: [0.2] Dictation 3.5 (3.3): [2.5] Writing Samples 13.6 (11.1): [unk] Proofing 3.7 (not given): [unk] Punct & Cap. 2.6 (ng): [unk] Spelling 2.9 (ng): [unk] Usage 4.7 (ng)His mechanical writing skills are weaker than I might like- but not necessarily so weak that they would require specific remediation to straighten them out. He needs to learn to proofread certainly. In spelling- I would guess that he hasn’t yet learned to apply his reading skills yet to producing correct spelling. My guess is that Orton Gillingham would be of great benefit with all these areas including his weaker word attack- but you might have to find a therapist on your own. Students who are slower starters at reading frequently have lags in their mechanical writing skills similar to your son’s.With good instruction- and this can come in the classroom as well as through SPED, this gets better.: [0.9] Calculation 5.6 (4.7): [0.0] Applied Probs 8.0 (8.0): [0.9] Quant. Concepts 6.0 (5.1)His math vocabulary and general conceptual knowledge is fine (Quan.Con.), calculation skills are also okay- and were last year too by the way. Applied Problems measures the ability to apply math skills in more realistic problem solving settings- money, time, measurement, multi step problems involving mileage and calculating change, percentages, and some algebraic stuff. He is fine. It actually looks to me as though he can do what he did last year, and that his score was so high last year that he may just not have been exposed to the one or two new things curriculum wise that would have bumped his score.Another thought regarding his high IQ and the pattern of his achievement scores- On the sections that require thinking skills and processing, your son is actually doing pretty much what he should be doing. One of the things I have found with very bright children is that basic skills may be lower just because of this- they are thinking all the time and are not particularly detail oriented- and all those basic skills are all about details:) These are the folks who are the forest thinkers- and not the trees… I guess if he were mine I would carefully weigh out how important the trees really are, and look for an effective balance. I wish you luck and hope this was helpful.Robin

Hi Raven’s mom,I’m a Resource Specialist at the elementary level, and I can identify with what you are saying, because it describes so many of the kids I have worked with in my fifteen years in this field, and my own son as well (now 19). I received Lindamood-Bell training about five years ago, and have been using it both in private tutoring and now in my Resource class since then, and I must say it’s the best program going for the truly LD kids, with the kind of weaknesses you describe in your son. Any other Orton-based program, Wilson Language, Slingerland, etc. would probably also be helpful, but I like the structure of the LMB program best of those, because it is so based on teacher-directed interactions, and self-discovery, which I think is key for LD kids. Done well, of course, I think all of the programs I just mentioned would be as effective.That being said, being able to get these services from your local district or school is quite another matter. I work for LAUSD, and I’m getting the impression I’m probably the only special ed. teacher with this training in the whole district, and that’s not likely to change anytime soon, from what I can see. On the other hand, I know of at least one smaller district nearby that says they are working on getting all their special ed. teachers LMB trained — they’ve been actively recruiting me! So, depending on your current district, it wouldn’t hurt to ask for a teacher next year who has such training, and see what the response is. If they look at you like you’re crazy, your next best bet is probably to look for an educational therapist with this training.There’s also Fast ForWord Programs, which is expensive but works very well for kids with the auditory processing and memory problems you describe, but you should find someone to give him a few specific pretests before you invest that kind of money. Many parents have told me they saw a real jump in the kids spelling skills after Step ForWord, which is the second level program… at your son’s age, even the 4WD, which is their adolescent/adult program, might be appropriate.Anyway, you are right to be concerned about your son’s lack of progress, even if the school tries to say they’re not… sometimes I think they’re happy with ANY amount of progress, no matter how small, and I often wonder why the parents don’t seem MORE upset about such miniscule gains, which are clearly putting their kids further and further behind the mainstream, which is the opposite of what our programs are supposed to do. If we aren’t using the best methods out there, and in the vast majority of schools nationwide, we aren’t, then we deserve to get sued or whatever else parents can do until things change — at least that’s my humble opinion!

Contact your state education department. If your child tests two years below grade level in any area, he is eligible for help accross the curriculum.

I retired from teaching LD kids last June. Yes, you need to be concerned. There would
be a variety of reasong for the lack of written language development. One of those
would be that he/she might be dyslexic.