timed math tests and dsylexic student

Hi Susan,

I have found that it really helps to write a letter before the meeting to make your position completely clear. I have had many, many conversations that never amounted to anything. It was very frustrating. I have found that a letter is never ignored.
It provides a paper trail that could really help if you ever had to take them to court. They know this and will therefore not ignore your written requests.

They are ignoring her IEP if it states she should have extra time on tests. You may want to point that out.

Dear Linda, thank you, that is a good idea. It is Wed and the meeting is Frid so I do have time to give them a letter.
I searched the web again tonight and found lots of resources for IEP writing/input and enforcing so as part of my parental input, I’ve made an outline of exactly where I think the problems are, and the observations I make of her frustrations, my accomodation recomendations and goals , and I’m going to take it with me so I don’t become lost in thought as I hear their debates. I’m just going to focus on why I’m there and the issue at hand and if they try to stray from that I’m going to whip out my notes and do my best to get them to be supportive. I still have a slight sick feeling in my stomach though because this woman has basically lied for half the school year that my daughters resources were in place,when in fact they haven’t been. and I’ve got the feeling she just doesn’t recognize special needs„„dumb me too for believing her explanations..but it’s time to hold her accountable for my child’s sake. I pray with the letter you advised, and my outline in hand that all goes well. thanks again. susan

Basically„what else can I say or how can I say during my meeting ? thank you.

In meetings with teachers and schools, we should establish realistic goals. It isn’t realistic, sadly, to try to get this teacher to understand that timed tests don’t serve any child well. Timed tests are an entrenched tradition in schools and few people are brave enough to consider questioning entrenched traditions, even ones that are bad as timed tests surely are.

It is more realistic to try to continue the accomodation of extended time for your daughter. Her teachers’ feelings about memory of math facts and timed tests aside, how does this teacher get to simply set aside a child’s IEP? Does the IEP say extended time or not? Does the IEP say it will allow for exceptions based on a teacher’s feelings? I doubt it. An IEP is a contract between you and the school. Why are they breaking the contract?

Are you now asking for unlimited time for your daughter to take these tests? I gather not. There is a big difference between extended time and unlimited time and it sounds as if the teacher has confused the two. Go for 50% more time for your daughter. That’s the standard accomodation.

I’d say that in the meeting- over and over again. I’d ask - why are we not following the IEP? Why have we set aside the IEP? Is that lawful? Does the Americans with Disabilities Act allow for the setting aside of an agreed upon IEP based upon an individual teacher’s philosophies? Look incredulous. If you need to, tell them when you checked with the state office (fib or go ahead and check with the state office of compliance for special ed) the state told you it was not lawful.

(look up the Withers case on line and find that a teacher was sued - and lost - for willfully setting aside a student’s IEP)

While I wholeheartedly agree with you about timed tests, trying to argue that out with this teacher will not serve you well. I’d also not get into a discussion of the accomodations right now other than time on tests.

Dyslexic children read more slowly than other children. They read math tests more slowly than other children. Do NOT ask for unlimited time on math tests or any other as it puts the hair up on teachers’ backs. There is a difference between unlimited time and extended time. Point out to the teacher that as your daughter is still limited in the amount of time she is given and thus the teacher’s philosophies are being served.

Good luck. Please let us know how it goes.

. I’ve tried to study more on the relationship of timed tests to the dyslexic student so I can prepare an educated defense, but I could also use some advice for anyone who may have had to fight for their childs IEP rights. I have another IEP meeting this week to discuss the accomodations and voice my dismay over these timed tests in hopes that the teacher will not only give my daughter extra time, but I wish to help make her realize that rushing one or timing a test doesn’t always ensure them learning the concepts and the facts, at least not for every student, and being able to demonstate skill knowledge in a non rushed setting I think should be more important.

A few more innovative teachers are trying to move away from daily timings but the timings are entrenched here. This school scores well on the standardized tests and people feel that the automaticity generated by zillions of math facts timings are positive. I handle it by having my daughter’s amounts cut way down and then marked for accuracy eg 19/20 completed =90% not 19/100. My daughter knows we value accuracy over quantity.

Having said that -her quantity production (which makes me envisage the scene with Lucille Ball at the factory belt) has increased over the year.

Concepts or computation speed. Not a tough choice in my book. Oh well.

Gosh, you might have to remind them of that ugly word “noncompliance”. This is definitely noncompliance with your daughter’s IEP.

I agree with Linda - Been there done that - you need to do everything in writing. and you need to confirm everything in writing.

Thank you for your time
Confirming our conversation, you stated…
Thank you, etc.

Then they KNOW you are creating a picture and a trail and they will usually start getting it together.

Of course, there’s always the state complaint too -been there done that.

Re: timed tests - If your daughter has a processing problem, as mine does, it is ridiculous to expect her to finish as quickly as the other students who do not have a processing delay. I agree with limiting the # so it’s not obvious to the other students that your daughter is getting all this extra time.

interesting - my daughter came home yesterday and announced she had finished a whole sheet (100 problems) for the first time. She was proud of herself-she knew she had improved. Funny enough her strong suit is division-the only operation she can work fast in. Tell me why multiplication is her slowest!!

The mind is wonderful thing.

I only have a few minutes to defend timings. There are math concepts which DEMAND automaticity. To teach a skill to automaticity demands a measurement means - accuracy being but one piece of calculation. Accuracy without “fluency” is fairly meaningless in the world of real math. In teaching from the conceptual concrete to the abstract, one first insures the student absolutely knows (to automaticity) the meaning of the operation. Then one begins fluency work - any competition should be based upon previous individual performance, not a race against a worksheet or a class.

I see you have a behavioral problem with the teacher and class, not the idea of timed exercises. Throwing away timings is throwing away a valid measurement system. The problem again is in the implementation, not the strategy. I could write more but have a plane to catch.

Ken

//

I agree here with Ken—daily math timings are extremely useful for building automaticity for math facts. (Of course just a little of it a day goes a very long way.) I notice, however, that Susan’s original complaint was about timed math tests, which seemes to indicate that the math timings are implemented as tests and, presumably, graded. I think this quite different from math timimgs where ideally you should be competing only against yourself and the objective is to improve your own speed, not trying to beat out others. They should not be graded—the reward should be in the student seeing a steady improvement in the number of problems done correctly in a given time. If the timings are instead administered as graded tests, yes it’s horribly unfair and, worse, totally undermines the value of math timings.

I agree with you on math fluency. My son was still having trouble with multiplciation facts in fourth grade. Daily timings at school were not enough for him. So we began a six month process of making the facts automatic—beginning with skip counting to a metronome. Frankly, we made more of a difference in math doing this than I have ever been able to make with reading with similar effort. My son is now doing measurement conversions with no problems, long multiplication with no problems.

He has major memory and retrieval issues and I knew that in the long run I could get a calculator accomodation. But that wasn’t going to happen in fourth grade. His self esteem has already taken a beating with his dyslexia and I didn’t want to see it beat up in math too.

Beth

Can you explain skip counting to a metronome?

Hi Susan,

I have found that it really helps to write a letter before the meeting to make your position completely clear. I have had many, many conversations that never amounted to anything. It was very frustrating. I have found that a letter is never ignored.
It provides a paper trail that could really help if you ever had to take them to court. They know this and will therefore not ignore your written requests.

They are ignoring her IEP if it states she should have extra time on tests. You may want to point that out.

Dear Linda, thank you, that is a good idea. It is Wed and the meeting is Frid so I do have time to give them a letter.
I searched the web again tonight and found lots of resources for IEP writing/input and enforcing so as part of my parental input, I’ve made an outline of exactly where I think the problems are, and the observations I make of her frustrations, my accomodation recomendations and goals , and I’m going to take it with me so I don’t become lost in thought as I hear their debates. I’m just going to focus on why I’m there and the issue at hand and if they try to stray from that I’m going to whip out my notes and do my best to get them to be supportive. I still have a slight sick feeling in my stomach though because this woman has basically lied for half the school year that my daughters resources were in place,when in fact they haven’t been. and I’ve got the feeling she just doesn’t recognize special needs„„dumb me too for believing her explanations..but it’s time to hold her accountable for my child’s sake. I pray with the letter you advised, and my outline in hand that all goes well. thanks again. susan

Basically„what else can I say or how can I say during my meeting ? thank you.

In meetings with teachers and schools, we should establish realistic goals. It isn’t realistic, sadly, to try to get this teacher to understand that timed tests don’t serve any child well. Timed tests are an entrenched tradition in schools and few people are brave enough to consider questioning entrenched traditions, even ones that are bad as timed tests surely are.

It is more realistic to try to continue the accomodation of extended time for your daughter. Her teachers’ feelings about memory of math facts and timed tests aside, how does this teacher get to simply set aside a child’s IEP? Does the IEP say extended time or not? Does the IEP say it will allow for exceptions based on a teacher’s feelings? I doubt it. An IEP is a contract between you and the school. Why are they breaking the contract?

Are you now asking for unlimited time for your daughter to take these tests? I gather not. There is a big difference between extended time and unlimited time and it sounds as if the teacher has confused the two. Go for 50% more time for your daughter. That’s the standard accomodation.

I’d say that in the meeting- over and over again. I’d ask - why are we not following the IEP? Why have we set aside the IEP? Is that lawful? Does the Americans with Disabilities Act allow for the setting aside of an agreed upon IEP based upon an individual teacher’s philosophies? Look incredulous. If you need to, tell them when you checked with the state office (fib or go ahead and check with the state office of compliance for special ed) the state told you it was not lawful.

(look up the Withers case on line and find that a teacher was sued - and lost - for willfully setting aside a student’s IEP)

While I wholeheartedly agree with you about timed tests, trying to argue that out with this teacher will not serve you well. I’d also not get into a discussion of the accomodations right now other than time on tests.

Dyslexic children read more slowly than other children. They read math tests more slowly than other children. Do NOT ask for unlimited time on math tests or any other as it puts the hair up on teachers’ backs. There is a difference between unlimited time and extended time. Point out to the teacher that as your daughter is still limited in the amount of time she is given and thus the teacher’s philosophies are being served.

Good luck. Please let us know how it goes.

. I’ve tried to study more on the relationship of timed tests to the dyslexic student so I can prepare an educated defense, but I could also use some advice for anyone who may have had to fight for their childs IEP rights. I have another IEP meeting this week to discuss the accomodations and voice my dismay over these timed tests in hopes that the teacher will not only give my daughter extra time, but I wish to help make her realize that rushing one or timing a test doesn’t always ensure them learning the concepts and the facts, at least not for every student, and being able to demonstate skill knowledge in a non rushed setting I think should be more important.

A few more innovative teachers are trying to move away from daily timings but the timings are entrenched here. This school scores well on the standardized tests and people feel that the automaticity generated by zillions of math facts timings are positive. I handle it by having my daughter’s amounts cut way down and then marked for accuracy eg 19/20 completed =90% not 19/100. My daughter knows we value accuracy over quantity.

Having said that -her quantity production (which makes me envisage the scene with Lucille Ball at the factory belt) has increased over the year.

Concepts or computation speed. Not a tough choice in my book. Oh well.

Gosh, you might have to remind them of that ugly word “noncompliance”. This is definitely noncompliance with your daughter’s IEP.

I agree with Linda - Been there done that - you need to do everything in writing. and you need to confirm everything in writing.

Thank you for your time
Confirming our conversation, you stated…
Thank you, etc.

Then they KNOW you are creating a picture and a trail and they will usually start getting it together.

Of course, there’s always the state complaint too -been there done that.

Re: timed tests - If your daughter has a processing problem, as mine does, it is ridiculous to expect her to finish as quickly as the other students who do not have a processing delay. I agree with limiting the # so it’s not obvious to the other students that your daughter is getting all this extra time.

interesting - my daughter came home yesterday and announced she had finished a whole sheet (100 problems) for the first time. She was proud of herself-she knew she had improved. Funny enough her strong suit is division-the only operation she can work fast in. Tell me why multiplication is her slowest!!

The mind is wonderful thing.

I only have a few minutes to defend timings. There are math concepts which DEMAND automaticity. To teach a skill to automaticity demands a measurement means - accuracy being but one piece of calculation. Accuracy without “fluency” is fairly meaningless in the world of real math. In teaching from the conceptual concrete to the abstract, one first insures the student absolutely knows (to automaticity) the meaning of the operation. Then one begins fluency work - any competition should be based upon previous individual performance, not a race against a worksheet or a class.

I see you have a behavioral problem with the teacher and class, not the idea of timed exercises. Throwing away timings is throwing away a valid measurement system. The problem again is in the implementation, not the strategy. I could write more but have a plane to catch.

Ken

//

I agree here with Ken—daily math timings are extremely useful for building automaticity for math facts. (Of course just a little of it a day goes a very long way.) I notice, however, that Susan’s original complaint was about timed math tests, which seemes to indicate that the math timings are implemented as tests and, presumably, graded. I think this quite different from math timimgs where ideally you should be competing only against yourself and the objective is to improve your own speed, not trying to beat out others. They should not be graded—the reward should be in the student seeing a steady improvement in the number of problems done correctly in a given time. If the timings are instead administered as graded tests, yes it’s horribly unfair and, worse, totally undermines the value of math timings.

I agree with you on math fluency. My son was still having trouble with multiplciation facts in fourth grade. Daily timings at school were not enough for him. So we began a six month process of making the facts automatic—beginning with skip counting to a metronome. Frankly, we made more of a difference in math doing this than I have ever been able to make with reading with similar effort. My son is now doing measurement conversions with no problems, long multiplication with no problems.

He has major memory and retrieval issues and I knew that in the long run I could get a calculator accomodation. But that wasn’t going to happen in fourth grade. His self esteem has already taken a beating with his dyslexia and I didn’t want to see it beat up in math too.

Beth

Can you explain skip counting to a metronome?