saxon math not big on concepts ?

I would certainly recommend Saxon for the early grades. I would say that “not big on concepts” is totally inaccurate for the early grades. It is definitely one of the best math curriculums.

Janis

thank you for responding. With Saxon do I need to supplement at all ? Also is is appropriate for dyslexics?

You just need the manipulatives to go along with it. It is very hands-on and great for kids with reading problems because it is multi-sensory. Occasionally I have had to read a word problem to my child, but that would be the case with any math program.

Janis

I do not know specifically about the early elementary Saxon grades, but Saxon in general has been criticized for lack of concept development and an over-emphasis on computation. I have seen quite a few posts along those lines by math teachers on the ERIC website. The gist is that Saxon is good at teaching the “how” of math, but not the “why”.

The following is a middle school curriculum review site, but might be helpful: http://www.project2061.org/newsinfo/research/textbook/default.htm

Common homeschooling alternatives to Saxon are Math-U-See (http://www.mathusee.com) and Singapore Math primary series (http://www.singaporemath.com). Developmental Math is also supposed to be good, but rather more expensive. My personal favorite is a combination of Miquon and Singapore.

You might want to visit the homeschooling boards at vegsource.com and welltrainedmind.com to get a better feel for the pros and cons of each approach.

Nancy

How did you finally choose which program to go with? And why are singapore and Miqoun your favorites? What is Developmental Math? I tried the website project 2061…. , howere it put me to a AAASP ( a science org. ) . THanks for taking the time. Ari

Nancy, I know Saxon changes above maybe third grade. But there is an excellent balance between computation and concepts on the lower grades. Children absolutely must learn the basic math facts and Saxon includes practice for this, but it is by no means over-emphasized. Also, in the older grades, a perceptive teacher adjusts the amount of computation practice to the particular child’s needs.

Janis

I haven’t used it myself, so this is second-hand, but I like what I hear about the Singapore math program. There is a text plus workbooks at each level, so you get plenty of practice. I hear it has good presentation of concepts and good illustrations, nice and concrete. From what I hear, the Singapore program is based on British systems, so their book 1 is US Grade 2, etc. — you would start with the kindergarten/preschool level and work up.

Here is a very thorough review that I read that convinced me it might not have enough practice for an LD child. It also does not have the component to teach math facts, you must add that. The author suggests that Saxon and Singapore together might be a complete program since neither is perfect. However, keep in mind that this review is meant for typical children. You have to read in what might be good or bad for an LD child.

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/J01singapore.html

Janis

Sorry about the project 2061 site. I thought it reviewed Saxon, but I don’t think it does. Basically, it is scientists promoting math programs they think are supportive of scientific professions.

Miquon has a “discovery” approach to math that I really like. The child uses manipulatives with workbook pages to work out mathematical relationships, ideally achieving some “aha!” experiences along the way. I think it is a great introduction to math for most children.

Saxon and Singapore, in contrast, are programs that teach math to the child. They have very different approaches to doing this. Saxon teaches in small increments, with built-in spiral review at every step, and focuses on developing computation skills. Singapore teaches concepts, then shows the child how to apply the concepts to solve problems. Focus is more on developing mathematical thinking — that there are multiple ways to solve every problem — and on mental math.

Here is a link to a post that might help explain Singapore a little better: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/K8Curr28/messages/1748.html

If you look at other posts on that bulletin board (you can use “edit” to search for the Singapore and Saxon posts), you will find a wide variety of experiences with the two programs. Unfortunately, no matter how good the math program, there are some children who won’t do well with it. There are children who hate Saxon and love Singapore, and children who hate Singapore and love Saxon. Finding the right math program depends a great deal on the temperament of your child and which math approach is a good “fit”.

I will post a website for Developmental Math if I can find it. It doesn’t seem to be used as much by homeschoolers, perhaps because it is considerably more expensive than Saxon and Singapore.

Nancy

1) It is really great for kids with language LDs—there are three or four word problems everyday. They teach them very methodically—one step problems are taught and overtaught before two-step problems are introduced. Also, the series for younger kids has an uncanny ability to ferret out and offer direct instruction methods for remediating other math language problems—my favorite example is about the activities for getting a child to understand the concept of “between” so he or she can answer a question like:”Name a number between 20 and 30.”

2) Math facts are taught in a very interesting way—in addition, the doubles are taught first, for example. This makes learning the harder math facts like 7+8 later on quite easy. Multiplication is taught first with the 7 Xs—but only after quite a long period of having the kids learn how many days in one week, then two weeks, etc. Through this exercise, kids naturally learn pehaps the hardest set of math facts first, giving them a huge confidence edge in learning the easier ones later.

3) Math is related to everyday knowledge as the above example shows and reinforces things like weeks, months, temperature, money, time etc. as math concepts. I really like that math is not taught simply as an abstract skill, but rather as one kids really need to know to understand their immediate world.

4) The manipulative work is great and IMO really helps with a conceptual understanding of math. I use math everyday in my work—and teaching Saxon has actually deepened my own conceptual view of math and the relationship among various math concepts.

5) The 1-3 work book program is very easy to use for the parent, as is the 4 workbook program in similar format that you can also order, although they don’t advertise it much.

6) The constant reinforcement and building upon previously learned skills ensures that kids don’t learn a topic, only to forget it when they move on to something else.

I can see where people could have problems with the conceptual bit for the older kids’ series. These are hardback books and involve copying down the problems (although I understand that you can now get workbooks with the problems in them). Even so, these books provide much more constant and consistent instruction in word problems than anything else I’ve seen. (Most series just do a unit on word problems and take a couple of work problems at the end of each unit instead of making this important skill one that is practiced every day.) Also the order of teaching math information for the most part is quite logical so kids can easily see the relationship between, for example, fractions and decimals. (As a result of poor teaching, many kids think these are totally unrelated topics.)

I have some Singapore math books, but do not feel they work as well for helping kids with language LDs. Threads a long time ago on this subject seem to come out that kids with visual LDs seem to benefit more from Singapore math, while the language LD kids thrive with Saxon.

I do not feel that time is that well covered in either Saxon or Singapore for kids that find this area difficult. For that I would recommend “One Hand at a Time,” a truly excellent and very usable book on this subject.

Why not order both Singapore and Saxon and see what you think? I’m pretty sure you can return to both companies if you don’t think the products will work for you.

I use Saxon with upper middle school students with many diverse LD’s and I really like using it. If you follow the outline of the book it makes all the connections for you from lesson to lesson and is very clear cut.”BUT” if a student is being introduced into the SAXON MATH series for the first time in 7th or 8th grade it is very diffcult!
Saxon has many repeating sequences and math vocab from the ealier books. I teach Special ED. in a Middle School and this is my second year using this series. I use book numbers 78 and 87… the more advanced students use pre-algrebra and algrebra.

I use Saxon with upper middle school students with many diverse LD’s and I really like using it. If you follow the outline of the book it makes all the connections for you from lesson to lesson and is very clear cut.”BUT” if a student is being introduced into the SAXON MATH series for the first time in 7th or 8th grade it is very diffcult!
Saxon has many repeating sequences and math vocab from the ealier books. I teach Special ED. in a Middle School and this is my second year using this series. I use book numbers 78 and 87… the more advanced students use pre-algrebra and algrebra.

Thanks for the great stuffari wrote:

> I am looking for a math program ( I am homeschooling). I have
> an almost 6 yr and 2 yr old triplets. I was told that Saxon is
> not big on concepts ? Is that true in the early program ? What
> else is rec. Stuctural Arithmetic ? But it seems like it is
> only concept. HELP

I agree

Saxon’s early grades rely on the use of a multifunctional and interactive calendar/bulletin board. All the basic facts k-3 are taught using a this.

It has a calendar, a place to right the month, day, and year. It also has the months of the year, the seasons, telling time, money, basic fractions, etc.

This board is used to teach most of each lesson
and work pages or workbooks are provided for algorithm practice . Check out their web site.

Paul

[%sig%]

I have used Saxon grades 2-5 for several years and have had wonderful success with LD kids. It teaches them strategies for learning the facts and then applies those strategies to word problems. What I like about it is that it teaches HOW to solve word problems, rather than just throwing them at students like typical math programs do. I would highly recommend it.

what about Touchmath ? would it compliment Saxon?

I would certainly recommend Saxon for the early grades. I would say that “not big on concepts” is totally inaccurate for the early grades. It is definitely one of the best math curriculums.

Janis

thank you for responding. With Saxon do I need to supplement at all ? Also is is appropriate for dyslexics?

You just need the manipulatives to go along with it. It is very hands-on and great for kids with reading problems because it is multi-sensory. Occasionally I have had to read a word problem to my child, but that would be the case with any math program.

Janis

I do not know specifically about the early elementary Saxon grades, but Saxon in general has been criticized for lack of concept development and an over-emphasis on computation. I have seen quite a few posts along those lines by math teachers on the ERIC website. The gist is that Saxon is good at teaching the “how” of math, but not the “why”.

The following is a middle school curriculum review site, but might be helpful: http://www.project2061.org/newsinfo/research/textbook/default.htm

Common homeschooling alternatives to Saxon are Math-U-See (http://www.mathusee.com) and Singapore Math primary series (http://www.singaporemath.com). Developmental Math is also supposed to be good, but rather more expensive. My personal favorite is a combination of Miquon and Singapore.

You might want to visit the homeschooling boards at vegsource.com and welltrainedmind.com to get a better feel for the pros and cons of each approach.

Nancy

How did you finally choose which program to go with? And why are singapore and Miqoun your favorites? What is Developmental Math? I tried the website project 2061…. , howere it put me to a AAASP ( a science org. ) . THanks for taking the time. Ari

Nancy, I know Saxon changes above maybe third grade. But there is an excellent balance between computation and concepts on the lower grades. Children absolutely must learn the basic math facts and Saxon includes practice for this, but it is by no means over-emphasized. Also, in the older grades, a perceptive teacher adjusts the amount of computation practice to the particular child’s needs.

Janis

I haven’t used it myself, so this is second-hand, but I like what I hear about the Singapore math program. There is a text plus workbooks at each level, so you get plenty of practice. I hear it has good presentation of concepts and good illustrations, nice and concrete. From what I hear, the Singapore program is based on British systems, so their book 1 is US Grade 2, etc. — you would start with the kindergarten/preschool level and work up.

Here is a very thorough review that I read that convinced me it might not have enough practice for an LD child. It also does not have the component to teach math facts, you must add that. The author suggests that Saxon and Singapore together might be a complete program since neither is perfect. However, keep in mind that this review is meant for typical children. You have to read in what might be good or bad for an LD child.

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/J01singapore.html

Janis

Sorry about the project 2061 site. I thought it reviewed Saxon, but I don’t think it does. Basically, it is scientists promoting math programs they think are supportive of scientific professions.

Miquon has a “discovery” approach to math that I really like. The child uses manipulatives with workbook pages to work out mathematical relationships, ideally achieving some “aha!” experiences along the way. I think it is a great introduction to math for most children.

Saxon and Singapore, in contrast, are programs that teach math to the child. They have very different approaches to doing this. Saxon teaches in small increments, with built-in spiral review at every step, and focuses on developing computation skills. Singapore teaches concepts, then shows the child how to apply the concepts to solve problems. Focus is more on developing mathematical thinking — that there are multiple ways to solve every problem — and on mental math.

Here is a link to a post that might help explain Singapore a little better: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/K8Curr28/messages/1748.html

If you look at other posts on that bulletin board (you can use “edit” to search for the Singapore and Saxon posts), you will find a wide variety of experiences with the two programs. Unfortunately, no matter how good the math program, there are some children who won’t do well with it. There are children who hate Saxon and love Singapore, and children who hate Singapore and love Saxon. Finding the right math program depends a great deal on the temperament of your child and which math approach is a good “fit”.

I will post a website for Developmental Math if I can find it. It doesn’t seem to be used as much by homeschoolers, perhaps because it is considerably more expensive than Saxon and Singapore.

Nancy

1) It is really great for kids with language LDs—there are three or four word problems everyday. They teach them very methodically—one step problems are taught and overtaught before two-step problems are introduced. Also, the series for younger kids has an uncanny ability to ferret out and offer direct instruction methods for remediating other math language problems—my favorite example is about the activities for getting a child to understand the concept of “between” so he or she can answer a question like:”Name a number between 20 and 30.”

2) Math facts are taught in a very interesting way—in addition, the doubles are taught first, for example. This makes learning the harder math facts like 7+8 later on quite easy. Multiplication is taught first with the 7 Xs—but only after quite a long period of having the kids learn how many days in one week, then two weeks, etc. Through this exercise, kids naturally learn pehaps the hardest set of math facts first, giving them a huge confidence edge in learning the easier ones later.

3) Math is related to everyday knowledge as the above example shows and reinforces things like weeks, months, temperature, money, time etc. as math concepts. I really like that math is not taught simply as an abstract skill, but rather as one kids really need to know to understand their immediate world.

4) The manipulative work is great and IMO really helps with a conceptual understanding of math. I use math everyday in my work—and teaching Saxon has actually deepened my own conceptual view of math and the relationship among various math concepts.

5) The 1-3 work book program is very easy to use for the parent, as is the 4 workbook program in similar format that you can also order, although they don’t advertise it much.

6) The constant reinforcement and building upon previously learned skills ensures that kids don’t learn a topic, only to forget it when they move on to something else.

I can see where people could have problems with the conceptual bit for the older kids’ series. These are hardback books and involve copying down the problems (although I understand that you can now get workbooks with the problems in them). Even so, these books provide much more constant and consistent instruction in word problems than anything else I’ve seen. (Most series just do a unit on word problems and take a couple of work problems at the end of each unit instead of making this important skill one that is practiced every day.) Also the order of teaching math information for the most part is quite logical so kids can easily see the relationship between, for example, fractions and decimals. (As a result of poor teaching, many kids think these are totally unrelated topics.)

I have some Singapore math books, but do not feel they work as well for helping kids with language LDs. Threads a long time ago on this subject seem to come out that kids with visual LDs seem to benefit more from Singapore math, while the language LD kids thrive with Saxon.

I do not feel that time is that well covered in either Saxon or Singapore for kids that find this area difficult. For that I would recommend “One Hand at a Time,” a truly excellent and very usable book on this subject.

Why not order both Singapore and Saxon and see what you think? I’m pretty sure you can return to both companies if you don’t think the products will work for you.

I use Saxon with upper middle school students with many diverse LD’s and I really like using it. If you follow the outline of the book it makes all the connections for you from lesson to lesson and is very clear cut.”BUT” if a student is being introduced into the SAXON MATH series for the first time in 7th or 8th grade it is very diffcult!
Saxon has many repeating sequences and math vocab from the ealier books. I teach Special ED. in a Middle School and this is my second year using this series. I use book numbers 78 and 87… the more advanced students use pre-algrebra and algrebra.

I use Saxon with upper middle school students with many diverse LD’s and I really like using it. If you follow the outline of the book it makes all the connections for you from lesson to lesson and is very clear cut.”BUT” if a student is being introduced into the SAXON MATH series for the first time in 7th or 8th grade it is very diffcult!
Saxon has many repeating sequences and math vocab from the ealier books. I teach Special ED. in a Middle School and this is my second year using this series. I use book numbers 78 and 87… the more advanced students use pre-algrebra and algrebra.

Thanks for the great stuffari wrote:

> I am looking for a math program ( I am homeschooling). I have
> an almost 6 yr and 2 yr old triplets. I was told that Saxon is
> not big on concepts ? Is that true in the early program ? What
> else is rec. Stuctural Arithmetic ? But it seems like it is
> only concept. HELP

I agree

Saxon’s early grades rely on the use of a multifunctional and interactive calendar/bulletin board. All the basic facts k-3 are taught using a this.

It has a calendar, a place to right the month, day, and year. It also has the months of the year, the seasons, telling time, money, basic fractions, etc.

This board is used to teach most of each lesson
and work pages or workbooks are provided for algorithm practice . Check out their web site.

Paul

[%sig%]

I have used Saxon grades 2-5 for several years and have had wonderful success with LD kids. It teaches them strategies for learning the facts and then applies those strategies to word problems. What I like about it is that it teaches HOW to solve word problems, rather than just throwing them at students like typical math programs do. I would highly recommend it.

what about Touchmath ? would it compliment Saxon?