inclusion

Reread what I wrote. From what I wrote it implies that sp ed teachers do nothing. I do not mean to imply this at all. They do a tremendous amount in helping with the workload, creating study guide materials, advocating for children, attending endless meetings, and filling out volumes paper work, and I have not even cracked the tip of the iceberg. What I mean to say is that there just does not seem to be remediation in either the rr or mainstream. It seems that there is some more remediation within the self contained classroom in the lower grades and middle school years. Still I do not think this is an appropriate placement for students that can learn with supports in the reg. ed classroom.

In my school, we have an early intervention program (LiPS-based but names and graphics are changed). All regular ed, Title I, and sped teachers are trained and mandated to use it K-3. Our sped referrals are very low for LD in early grades and struggling kids get extra help (with or w/out the sped label). What I am seeing, however, is a reading gap at Gr 4—not just w/kids who could have been diagnosed LD. Those w/out learning problems, take off and fly. Those “with” seem to stall-out at Gr. 3 achievement.

Pull-out and push-in services happen in all grades. I usually like pull-out for decoding kids in upper elementary because kids feel self-conscious around this age. Some kids, though, with more comprehension-oriented problems are often better served in push-in services. (And I don’t mean study hall and curriculum tutoring. It might be a V & V unit or more intensive vocabulary work, etc.) However, I pull at-risk kids w/out IEP’s right along with others. I expect achievement out of every student with whom I work. If I don’t get results, I consider it my fault…not theirs.

I think I work for a unique district, committed to reading achievement for all students. I don’t know what it is like anywhere else. I’m not sure I’d wish to find out, either.

I have said this before but will again on this thread. A student, no matter what the grade, should not be in ‘inclusion’ if he or she have a lot of accommodations. The accommodations should be, clarify and read directions, extended time, and anything that involves writing down homework in their agendas. If a student can’t read or write near grade level, no matter the grade, they should be in self-contained classes. It is very hard to remediate a basic skill when the student is in high school. I teach 11th grade self-contained and inclusion English. I teach in Virginia and I have to teach them so that they pass the 11th grade English state test, SOL. I do teach them decoding, Phono-Graphix, during the first three weeks and when their reading has improved, we do a book. While reading the book, I teach them how to write using Step Up to Writing. The English SOL is given in March and also in May. It seems that I have to teach them 10 years of English in 7 months! I hope to get the SOL’s scores soon to see how my kids did. Special ed teachers are not trained on remediation methods except maybe Wilsons, that takes too long for high school students of varying reading levels. There is a reading class in my school but it doesn’t teach decoding skills! It is basically literature based, whole language. Mostly it is a class for ESL students, who don’t get taught decoding, go figure!!

Special education, past third grade, is about accommodations not remediation. You can’t remediate if you adhere to the student’s IEP accommodations. I basically ignore the accommodations while I am remediating my students. I hope that this explains sped for high school students. And you are right, most kids don’t get out of sped, that is how good it works, it doesn’t work for most kids without remediation.

In my region and in my sped/reg ed world, “mainstreaming” is the concept for kids that can do the work but need some other physical accommodation in order to be in the classroom. “Inclusion” (in region) means modifying assignments and objectives for diverse learners to meet their needs at that time in the general education curriculum. I think of this more in the content subjects than in core subjects. Many people believe in mainstreaming, but not inclusion. Further, some believe in inclusion for contents but not cores—some for all. I say it depends on the staff, student situation, and other factors. Disability should not drive placement. IEP goals drive.

JMHO, but I totally disagree with you about remediation. K-3 is prevention and 4-adult is remediation. I am a special ed teacher who is very well trained in many reading instructional *methods* but I use even more *programs.* I believe that this should be the norm rather than the exception. Special ed, at any level can be about either remediation or accomodations.

Part of the reason some teachers have trouble with Wilson Language (or other MSSL programs) is that they only have a few-days of workshop. Taking the full Orton-Gillingham prepares one to teach using any of these programs—except maybe SPIRE which needs LiPS, too. Teachers without the underlying training get stuck when a kid doesn’t perform as expected. It also helps to have good PA—in fact, I say (for whatever that is worth) it is essential to teaching decoding.

Hi Susan,

My daughter was mainstreamed and what that meant in my county was a student in regular classes with a resource room to take tests, no sped teacher in the room and inclusion means with a sped teacher in the reg ed classroom and the student gets some modification or tests but mostly to make sure that the student turns in homework assignments and stays on task.

I think that you misunderstand me. If the accommodation says that the tests are read to them and I have remediated their reading, it would be counterproductive to read them the test if I know that they can read it. This is what I mean.

Unfortunately, there isn’t much remediation being accomplished in the 4-12 classrooms. Accommodations are the norm. If there was remediation, there would be far less students that start school in the third grade in sped and are a 12th grader, still in sped.

Boy am I happy that your school system sounds very like ours. Not that ours is without it’s problems. And it seems that NLD kids like mine are particularly “troublesome” because they don’t fit the typical stereotype of the LD kid. (hey, they can read… they can’t be LD ;-)

But our school system does seem to have the same philosophy that yours does, and MOST of the time does a pretty good job. But when I’ve posted here in the past, I’ve sometimes felt that ours was one of the few that was really TRYING to get it right. It seems like in many district, the SPED teachers are put in the position of trying to do an impossible task with no time, no funds and no system-wide support. Which of course, in the end means that the children suffer.

Karen

Hi mom,
I can only speak from my own experience as a special ed. middle school teacher. I can’t agree with you more. I have been very frustrated for the past few years because I have been questioning the very same things you mentioned. I keep asking what are we supposed to be focusing on - remediating skills or modifying work? It seems that the focus of many schools is to shove the special ed. students in the regular ed. classes so they can experience the same as everyone else. Most of the time, the teacher cannot teach to these children, they have no idea what is going on and absolutely no
remediation is going on. Therefore, the special ed. student remains at a constant level year after year. I fume when I have 7th grade students come to my resource room reading on a 2nd grade level. What have they been doing with these kids for all these years? It is very frustrating because I know what I have to do in order to remediate skills, and only have one year to do it in. It’s impossible. I feel very helpless and guilty. I am forced to go to the regular ed. teacher training sessions which does me no good.
Unfortunately, if parents want their child’s skills to improve, they have to fight with their school districts to make that happen.
Lisa

Hi Shay,

I had 5 out of 14 resource students in the regular ed. 7th grade classrooms to support that were on 2nd and 3rd grade levels. Is this a joke or what? Last year, my resource room students were lower than the self-contained students. I also ignore the modifications while I am remediating skills. I worked with
6 low readers last year using a multi-sensory reading instruction and each child increased their grade level from 1-2 years. Each kept a running record of their reading and spelling progress from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. What I would give to work with them for another year or two.
Lisa

I have a severely LD daughter who is mainstreamed, yet still receives minor accomodations, i.e., limited board copying, extended time on written assignments and books reports, use of a computer in the classroom and she goes to resource (it’s quieter) for important reading tests. She also gets extended time on yearly assessment tests. She would sometimes take spelling tests home on Friday so she would have the weekend to study her words longer. With these accommodations, she made straight A’s last year.

Sometimes when it’s late, I will scribe some of her homework, and say “Jami dictated” and sign my name. I have never had a general ed teacher complain about her accommodations. Her curriculum is not modified.

If I am not mistaken, your daughter is still in ele school? Most ele. schools mainstream sped students and it can work well. I think most of this discussion involves middle and high school. If the student is not remediated in ele school, the student’s abilities stay at an elementary school level and the student just can’t keep up with the work no matter what you do. That is why we have self-contained classrooms in 7-12. I hope that you are having her deficiencies remediated or you may be on this board saying the same thing about inclusion as everyone else. My daughter was a dyslexic, all A’s in ele school and ended up resigning from school as a junior. At that time, she read at a fourth grade level and just couldn’t deal with the reg ed teachers prejudices. Remember, most 8-12 teachers are taught to teach the subject not the student. I don’t know if this has changed in the college courses. They don’t have the ‘teaching of’ courses that ele ed teachers do and no sped courses unless they take them as electives. I hope that this will change but to my knowledge it hasn’t.

mom,

My experience with sped has been the same as yours. For 4 years they kept giving my son the same low level 1st-2 reading books. He hates them always told the teacher he wanted chapter books. The teacher last year told him it was too hard for him to read chapter books. Math is his strength yet he kept being given problems he could just breeze through.

So, we have gotten him great reading remediation this summer the improvement is wonderful. He has gotten confidence in his reading.

This year we are getting a great teacher and I hope it will be a great year. As far as mainstreaming my son has not been taught science or history which he loves, so we do some at home.

They say they teach sped following reg ed ciriculum not here. It is a shame.

Yikes, Shay, you scare me. You remember correctly, she’s going into 4th grade. She reads at a 4th grade level, but tires easily and occasionally misses a multisyllabic word. Still flits over those a’s, is’s, at’s, etc., and I have to bring her back to do it correctly.

I honestly dread middle school for fear the bottom will drop out. We are remediating like crazy, trying to get everything in a line so she will be okay. We may have to go to a private school (not LD), but to get smaller classes. In high school in our county I hear thereare 40+ students in a classroom.

Hi Leah,
I have been remediating for a long time. When you stop her, when she says a wrong sound, does she know why? If she knew why, she maybe wouldn’t make the same mistake again. Check the charts in Reading Reflex, they could help her. They give the different combinations for the long vowel sounds.

Shay

Usually when she misses a multisyllabic word, I notice that she’s flip flopping the sequence. For instance, personal, might be presonal, or development might be dele… If I jump in and say “dev….” then she’ll correct and get it right - she kind of skips letters or moves them out of order. That’s why her tutor tells me is’s so important that she “confirm” with her mouth (LIPS) what she’s reading and why she moves her mouth when reading silently. She is starting to self correct and I now notice that when she reads something and misses it,she will sometimes go back b/c she noticed it didn’t make sense. Which makes me ask - should I stop her immediately when she misses or let her figure out that it didn’t make sense?

She also still has a tendency to leave off endings, ings, s’s, ed’s, etc. She gets really aggravated/frustrated when you stop and make her go back and correct, but her tutor insists that she do this. She also knows her rules, backwards and forwards.

She has both visual and auditory processing problems, together with other problems. And, a problem (??) is that she comprehends well (answers all the questions correctly - I’ve also read on post here that some don’t think this is true comprehension) and makes excellent grades though currently only in 4th grade. I think this can be a bad thing, in a way, b/c then she doesn’t HAVE to get all the words right (or so she thinks) b/c she can still comprehend well enough to get by. (Am I making sense here?) My concern is that if she doesn’t get these “bad habits” (for lack of a better word) fixed b4 middle school she will sink when the volume of reading increases dramatically. Do you think I have a valid concern?

I know that you have remediated a long time, I can tell b/c you make so much SENSE. Since, I’m “picking your brain” anyway, how do you feel about RFBD/textbooks on tape in the upper grades? I guess, I’m afraid that even with all the intervention, she may never read with ease and comfort and it could help her frustration level as the volume required increases. She tires easily when reading. Don’t misundertand me, I am not talking about this IN LIEU of remediation, but support in addition to remediation. Basically, I want her to read as well as she is ABLE, but - a reality check - she may never be a voracious reader. I also don’t want her so frustrated that she gives up. Her evaluator told me at the end of 1st grade that “she is exhausted because of the effort she has to put out every day to keep her head above water” (this was b4 intervention) I find myself (as most parents, probably) trying to walk that find line between support and crutch. Feel free to be perfectly honest - I wouldn’t ask for your opinion if I didn’t think it had value!

Also, she has ADD. I’ve been reading BUT STAYING OUT :) of the debate on APD v ADD. All I know is that w/out meds she can hardly get any classroom work done and w/them she finishes everything on time during class (except maybe writing which is her biggest struggle) ). I can also tell a difference when she reads w and without the meds b/c without she will read a couple of sentences and relate what she’s read to a personal experience and then go on a dissertation SP? about it and I have to bring her back to the reading. If she’s on the meds, she keeps on reading - I don’t know - All I know is that I have seen tremendous improvement with the meds. She had improved dramatically just with remediation, but w/the meds the improvement increased twofold. Her teacher (spec ed) told me “some kids are on meds that don’t need to be - but your daughter CANNOT stay on task” I honestly don’t know, but for now, because of the great gains and her self confidence, we will stay on them. We take them only during the school year.

Sorry for the length of this post - I guess I just think you need to whole picture.
Thanks in advance for your expertise.

I always remind myself that we don’t hear about the kiddos who get things figured out and move along — it’s the ones who don’t who end up in my classes.

Hi Leah,

Yes, I have remediated for a long time and these are kids that have many of the programs that are recommended on this board. She may need some help with PG. Many of the students that I work with just have to be told about the special endings and about the advanced code letter combinations for each sound. I think that the success that PG can have over other programs is it’s symplicity. I start the advanced code with the sound /oe/. We go through all of the choices using words with the sound in them. I tell my students outright that when you see oa in a word, the sound has to be /oe/, nothing else. I also have them look at the combinations and auditorally review them each day. I give them neumonics that will help them remember the combinations for each word. For some kids, this is all they need. I understand about your wanting to stay on the meds because she does better, anyone on those drugs will have the same reaction to focusing unless they have a bad experience with the drugs, that is why these particular drugs are the drugs of choice for college campuses. My concern for your daughter is this, you say that she is off of them for the summer and I would say that when she finally has some positive experiences in reading and writing, she won’t need them. My experience with the kids that I think really have ADHD, it is a 24 hour problem, 365 days a year. If after LMB, and your daughter is still not reading, write me personally and I will help you. Also, Step Up to Writing is a great program that will help her with her writing skills. Good luck to you both, I really know what you are going through., first hand.

It’s not just the reading, it’s the writing as well. I don’t know. I’m just going to wait and see. Where are you located?

I was telling a friend about you. She has a 16 yr old dyslexic son who had a 137 Full scale IQ in 3rd grade and, when his IQ was tested recently, he had a 109 full scale. Mom had home schooled him and he had tutoring, but apparently not what he needed to address his specific needs. She fully believes it the Matthew effect. I told her you dealt with high school kids in the public school environment who needed to learn to read. She asked where you are. We are in Florida.

Hi Shay,
You are absolutely correct. If remediation is not done in the elementary levels, the upper grade teachers have no idea what to do with these kids.
As a middle school special ed. teacher, I have seen many shouting fights between special ed. & regular ed. teachers. The regular ed. teachers do not want these students in their classes and the students do not want to be there either.
I feel for your daughter, because it shouldn’t be. There are multisensory
reading programs that would have remediated your daughter’s skills so she could be on at least a 7th grade level.
It is very frustrating.
Lisa

Hi Marion,
I worked with a high school boy once to remediate his reading skills. He was in 9th grade & on a second grade level. He was so angry and complained all the time that he continues to learn the same things year after year after year.
When he started to experience progress, he became even more angrier because he wanted to know why the school hadn’t worked with him like I did for all those years he was in school. I worked with him for the remainder of his high school years, but he just could not get over the frustration and anger he felt about the school.
While it is rewarding, it is also so sad to hear the frustrations of the older students who get passed from year to year. You would think that if a particular program was not working after a year, then find something else - something that works. I did. I couldn’t live with myself if I passed another student to the next grade without making any kind of progress.
Lisa

As kids get older, they *normally* (as in the statistical norms) develop a lot of language skills — so the IQ norms get more weighted towards language and general knowledge (as expressed verbally), so I’ve seen a fair number of strong visual-spatial kids have an IQ “drop.” Of course it is speculation and some of it’s ol’ Matthew, but it can also be that she has developed *different* intelligences than her “peers.” It would be interesting to see the specifics.

Hi Lisa,

I think that you misunderstood me. My daughter now reads her college books. When she was in 11th grade, before she resigned from school, she was reading at a 4th grade level. When she was 19, the year PG came out, she was remediated in 10 hours, went on to take her GED, passed it and now is at Kent State, on Dean’s list and studying to be a radiation therapist. Don’t feel sorry for her, due to her horrible experiences, nothing is going to stand in her way of succeeding in life. She is truly my hero and drives my obsession to help kids be remediated and get on with life. That is why I tutor all the time, I love to see kids finally able to read and learn.

Shay, I’m glad you explained that - I too, thought she dropped out of school b/c she was reading on a 4th grade level - end of story.

I was quietly wondering why MOM didn’t tutor. :-).

I’m glad you gave us the rest of the story…

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for your post. I think we are getting a teacher this year (5th grade) with lots of experience and not threatened by parent questions and willing to try other methods.

My son and I already visited her class and I was impressed. She was very kind to my son and asked to see his the book he was using in 4th grade, she also let him read her the book the tutor was using with him. She promised him no more baby books. She also borrowed my Reading Reflex and Great Leaps books - I almost fell off the chair.

We have been through so much for the past two years with the same teacher who always treated me like a pain in the ____ and refused to advance my son.

I am sure your students are very lucky to have you and know you care.

Shay, my sons situation sounds very much like your daughters did.
He’s entering 8th grade, reading on a 4th grade level. But the regular ed teachers think he’s lazy and not trying because he can’t keep up in their classes, Geez, how could he. One teacher even told me he doesn’t even follow along when the other kids read. Duhhh!
So anyway, has your daughter learned to read better, adn what did she do after resigning from school? I can see us headed down that road. Any suggestions?

I guess you didn’t read my other post. When she turned 19, Reading Reflex was published, she was tutored for 10 hours, took her GED, passed it, went to a community college for a year, needed to be challenged more, went to Penn State for a year, ( A satellite campus in Sharon, Pa), made Dean’s List, with 4 A’s and a B; now at a campus of Kent State, still on Dean’s List studying to be a radiation therapist. She may take longer to get her degree but she is patient and just happy to be in school. She is a total auditory learner, ( tried to buy her a tape recorder, she put it back!), Kent doesn’t know that she has learning ‘quirks’. She can read her college books but you know, college is all about lectures. She said that she doesn’t really need to stury much, but she does. When she started her first semester at Penn State, she called me very irate, I had to promise her that I wouldn’t coddle my students, teach them she said, how to read, write, and study. She was very upset because she didn’t know how to study and didn’t really know how smart she was. I guess she found out, she is very smart! It has been a joy watching her, she is 24 now, discovering her intelligence. I think that we may write a book about her life and others on my private caseload that are making it. In fact, my parents are demanding that I give their sons and daughters a chapter in it.

When she was 14, they did a vocational assessment and they told me the best that I could hope for was that she could become a hamburger ‘flipper’ or a nurses aide, due to the severity of her cognitive disability. Good thing that noone listened to them. Yes, she worked at McDonalds but ended up being a manager at 17. By the way, she also works at the Outback Steak House, while she is going to school. If you have read any of my other posts, this will give you the understanding of where I am coming from on most issues. I have lived the nightmare and I am very fortunate as to the outcome. I prayed a lot and I thank God that my prayers were answered in the form of Phono-Graphix.

What a wonderful outcome. I only hope my son will someday make this kind of progress. I had him tutored over the summer, she said his main problem is self esteem. She said he is so used to failing he doesn’t even try. That I can thank a whole bunch of teachers for. At his IEP meeting in the spring, they suggested I have him put in a class for developmentally handicapped children.
I refused. The one teacher said she had done everything she knew to do and he still failed. WEll, she did nothing for him that I didn’t push for and then she did it under protest, and with not much effort. The bad thing is he’ll have her again this year, she teaches for both grades of middle school. I’m to have another IEP meeting before school starts, I was suppose to be considering thi change in placement thing over the summer. I’m starting the meeting by telling them, i have paid money over the summmer to get back part of his self esteem and I won’t have you destroy it again. This will be your only warning and the first problem I have I’m filing a state complaint, I’ve tried working with the local school district and they want to put the blame on him. So you see I’m already dreading another year. Only 5 more to go!!!!!
I sort of got off track, but so glad your daughter had success, gives me hope. :-)

First of all, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth we used an inclusion model called class within a class. In this dimension, curriculum was presented in a way that all kids could learn and it allowed a lot of creativity because the sped and reg. teacher collaborated and taught the material. Great way to teach! That said, we now just dump kids into regular classes, pretend to help and cross our fingers. A lot of the kids are in these classes because someone thinks it is better for them to be with the regular education students. I have found no research to support academic gains in inclusion settings. The group most opposed to inclusion is the SPED teachers because they know this is an inefficient means to remediate. Somewhere along the way we have forgotten that learning disabled students are to be remediated. Unfortunately in inclusion, if you are reading two grade levels below your peers, you will continue to read there because there is no intervention in place. If the kids do not have the prerequisite skills for a class they shouldn’t be there. This is a major problem and after 20+ years in the field, we are doing a much poorer job of remediating kids then ever before. We are trying so hard to make parents happy by putting their child with the general population and knowing fully well that remediation can not take place in this environment. In my resource classes we learn, remediate and are not relaxing from regular education stresses. I work with high school students and this is their last stop!

ditto!

I contend and have for many years that students who require modifications in curriculum should be in a resource room. Who are we trying to kid by creating a resource room within a general education room? If a child needs services, give them the services where they should have instead of masking some ridiculous accomodation and saying the child is being successful in the general education classroom. Are we so concerned about the child’s or parent’s self esteem that we manufacture an artificial environment? The creation of a resource room within a general education classroom is ridiculous!

An absolute and perpetuated joke by people who have no clue as to what is most important for kids!

my guess is she isn’t severely LD. Most of the severe LD kids have academic skills 2-3 grade levels below their peers and the types of accomodations would not have created these grades. It is great she did so well but she would be the exception and certainly not the rule. With the high school students I have, the severe kids are 6-7 grade levels below their texts - extra time does nothing for this problem!

Get your kid out of the classroom and into a resource room where there skills can develop. Why are you leaving a child with this type of descrepancy in the general education classroom?

Due to requirements from post secondary and knowledge based graduation requirements - content will continue to be the primary driving force in secondary education. Reality bites!

According to the evaluation she is severely LD but with a gifted IQ. I don’t know why it’s working, but I’m glad it is. We’ll see if it continues now in 4th grade.

nt

We have the same thing here guess it can be a good news bad news deal. If you get a great teacher wonderful, if you get a nice teacher with no experience, oh well, if you get a teacher that doesn’t communicate or teach you are sol for 2 yrs.