teachers' salaries in illinois

: Those numbers sound high to me. I am in CA. Our salaries top around $70,000 for teachers who have Master’s degrees plus 30 or graduate units beyond the masters.Admins. start around $80,000. I have not heard that Illinois is known for astonishingly high teacher salaries, as a few places are.Think about it, we all have 6 plus years of college and we continue to update our training at our own expense as many of our states require continuing education credits to keep our credentials. Indeed, many folks make less than $70,000, but I ask you, are these folks with 60 plus units beyond their bachelor’s degrees?Do you have any idea how your child would be educated if your child’s teachers did not purchase classroom materials with his/her own money? Visit your child’s classroom and as the teacher to show you the materials she purchased with her own money (if the IRS audits you, you are denied a tax deduction on these expenses as two of my friends can attest). Come see my room and I’ll show you the (probable) $2,000 worth of books I have bought. Did I recall the $58.00 I just dropped last week at the teacher’s supply to purchase comprehension materials? Most of the materials I use belong to me, my $450 per year budget must pay for all consummable supplies (paper, pencils, erasers, test protocols, markers, pens, and any instructional materials I order!! Ha, Ha).Your district personnel office can give you the salary schedule, it is always available. Consider how many folks would choose teaching if our salaries were even lower than they currently are. America says it wants good teachers. In all fairness, we should be paid something in the ballpark of what we could make in other fields. I agree that we should prorate the long vacations, but even then, a teacher at the top of the salary schedule probably doesn’t make more than most entry level engineers.It is nice to teach because you love children and want to make a difference, but we have families to take care of, too.

EMAILNOTICES>noPASSWORD>aaetA44bKITAIEnter the web site and investigate district 214. This is just one of many that have large salaries in the northwest Chicago suburban districts. Yes, there are districts that have a lot less money to spend. My son’s own elementary district pays a lot less. (Even if the teacher has more qualifications, degrees, and credit hours. They are the ones teaching for the love of teaching)As far as how much the teacher buys… This is a high school. Everything that a student uses is purchased by the student. The student must purchase all papers, notebooks, writing utensils even a $98.00 graphing calculator. This is because the school only has a limited number to use during class time and not every student may even get one to use. (The school’s words) The only things that are provided to the student is the text books and dittos. For these the students are charged $130.00/year to use. (and it goes up every year) Yes, books are expensive to purchase, but not everyone is given new books every year.My son in sped is using (as the teacher stated) a biology book that was used by the regular classes about 8 years ago, but removed because the regular classes wanted books that were “more advanced” I have plenty so don’t worry if your student leaves his book at home.) So the sped biology gets old books that the regular students don’t use any more. You call this fair? The biology teacher stated at the beginning of the school year when asked if the students would be doing disections during the course of the year, “No, I am not a biology teacher. I am a special ed. teacher teaching biology. I don’t feel I am qualified to have the students do disections.” I ask you once again…Fair? Some of the movies that the students watch are so old that they were copied onto VCR tape from regular old movie films. They are black and white, with crackles in the voices. This is what the teacher is spending her allotment on?The sped. math teacher uses books with a copyright of 1997. She has had the books for a few years. The paper she gives out for scratch work is stuff that other teachers made too many copies of. The kids use the other side of the paper. All other supplies the kids bring. What money does she spend on the students?Driver’s ed. cost just the students just 3 years ago $50/student. The district made up the difference because it is required here to graduate. Next year, it goes up to $250/student the full cost. (There is already talk about raising it the year after) The district is not supporting it at all. They decided it was too cost intensive and will now make the students support the program even though it is still a requirement to graduate. So now, the parent can decide if they want to spend that money on driver’s ed in school, or a private driving school. What about the parent who can’t afford the private driving school? Then they must foot the extra $250.00 school bill.You talk about decorating the rooms. High school teachers don’t decorate rooms. They switch from room to room just like the students. The only places they decorate are their cubicles in the department offices. (The kids never see these unless they are in trouble) Any school decorations are purchased by the students or student clubs through money that they raise themselves.As far as purchasing paper supplies etc. I was told that the teachers basically have a limited amount of paper credited to a special number used for the copy machines, but that if it proves inadequate, then they can request more. No pens, markers, etc are provided to the students. The teacher only purchases those he uses himself. If the student doesn’t have a pen etc., then he must either borrow from a fellow student, or if the teacher is extremely kind, the student could borrow a pencil from the teacher if he gives him something like a shoe, calculator, etc as collatoral.You might be an excellent teacher. If you are, then your students are very fortunate. They will learn a lot and look back with pride and respect to you and your teaching methods.Unfortunately, dealing with teachers for a total of 21 years, I can truthfully say that most I have dealt with have not been. During these years, I can say that only 2 would be considered excellent. There were more that could be labeled as “good” teachers, but there were far more that could not even be labeled as adequate.These are the teachers who are there not to teach but seem to want to only earn the salary. They are the teachers who don’t seem to care about the student as a person, but only as how much trouble is this going to be to me. Teachers in our district come here because it is one of the higher paying districts in the area. The district was quoted in the newspaper just last fall as “having more applicants than positions open.” I forget the exact number, (I would have to look in the back issues of the paper) but it was something like 1,500 applicants for 20 jobs. I can’t believe that they all were coming here just because it is such a nice place to teach.The head administrator alone of the district earned $148,625 last year. For the entire district, not just my son’s school, there are over 300 administrators and teachers earning $90,000 or above. Then when the parent asks for something for their sped student, many times we are told “The budget can’t support it”. I wonder why??? Just check the web site out. www.thechampion.orgYes, I know you have families too. Yes, there are many families that can quite easily afford all of the costs for the school here. These are the families of the kids driving the new cars to school when they turn 16. The problem though is that there are those of us who fall into the crack of not being poor enough to get financial aide, and not rich enough to easily afford them. The important word is easily. We are the one struggling to get our sped students a good education and make ends meet. The way the taxes keep going up because the school budget keeps going up because the teacher’s salaries keep going up is breaking us.: Admins. start around $80,000. I have not heard that Illinois is known
: for astonishingly high teacher salaries, as a few places are.: Think about it, we all have 6 plus years of college and we continue
: to update our training at our own expense as many of our states
: require continuing education credits to keep our credentials.
: Indeed, many folks make less than $70,000, but I ask you, are
: these folks with 60 plus units beyond their bachelor’s degrees?: Do you have any idea how your child would be educated if your child’s
: teachers did not purchase classroom materials with his/her own
: money? Visit your child’s classroom and as the teacher to show you
: the materials she purchased with her own money (if the IRS audits
: you, you are denied a tax deduction on these expenses as two of my
: friends can attest). Come see my room and I’ll show you the
: (probable) $2,000 worth of books I have bought. Did I recall the
: $58.00 I just dropped last week at the teacher’s supply to
: purchase comprehension materials? Most of the materials I use
: belong to me, my $450 per year budget must pay for all consummable
: supplies (paper, pencils, erasers, test protocols, markers, pens,
: and any instructional materials I order!! Ha, Ha).: Your district personnel office can give you the salary schedule, it
: is always available. Consider how many folks would choose teaching
: if our salaries were even lower than they currently are. America
: says it wants good teachers. In all fairness, we should be paid
: something in the ballpark of what we could make in other fields. I
: agree that we should prorate the long vacations, but even then, a
: teacher at the top of the salary schedule probably doesn’t make
: more than most entry level engineers.: It is nice to teach because you love children and want to make a
: difference, but we have families to take care of, too.

PASSWORD>aamjT37qc5iCcI’d want to know more than somebody’s glib manipulation of statistics. There are lies…There are big problems, too, and money going all kinds of strange places. How much of a sped budget goes to adminstrative duties & lawyers’ fees to keep things looking legal at the expense of the kids? Looking at numbers and getting righteously indignant, in the long run, does who what kind of good? What would you like done about it? Cut the salaries?Here’s another side to the story…

PASSWORD>aaZe0/9aBQ.mwSorry you have such a hard time with your school district and teahcers. But I do think that there are wonderful teachers in public school systems. My son’s current homeroom teacher is an example. When I check my son’s graded homeworks, I can see that the teacher spent a lot of time, making encouraging comments to the students, not just my son. When I visited the school, I saw students coming to her in the hallway, telling her what they’ve done. She is always very cheerful for the students. While my son was in elementary school, his resource room teacher offered to teach him before the regular school hours, so he would not have to miss any of his regular classes. I can’t say how grateful we are of these teachers. These teachers’ most precious gifts to the students are not material things, but their devotion to teaching.I checked the web page, the average annual salaries of Illinois teachers in different school districts range from ~ $23,000, to ~$80,000, quite a large range! The average teacher’s salary in my school district is in the mid 30K. I wonder what we can do for such disparity in teacher’s salary.

EMAILNOTICES>noPASSWORD>aaetA44bKITAINo, I wouldn’t want the salaries cut. What I would want is to have the teachers getting these salaries to actually have to earn their money.Case in point: Teacher 1 earns close to $74,000. Her daily schedule consists of 1 period free for marking, 1 period free for lunch, 2 periods monitoring a study hall, which leaves 4 periods a day to teach.Her idea of teaching is “I try to keep everyone in the class working at the same level. I don’t like to have students get ahead because it makes it too difficult to teach at the different levels during the same class.” This is a remedial class. So in other words, if 1 student learns the material faster than another, he is not encouraged to go ahead. He must wait until the majority of the class understands the specific material. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought sped students had IEP’s so that each of them could be taught as each individual needed, not what the class needed.What I would like to see, is for the school district to spend “our” money equally among the different levels of learning. In our district, the sped classes are held no matter how few kids are in the class. (different levels get mixed up together) At the other end of the spectrum, the high honors and advanced placement classes are also held no matter how few students are in them. Counselors have actually encouraged students to take the classes to increase their numbers even though their present teacher doesn’t think they are capable of handling the work. Fine for these students. Encourage them to try harder. I am all for it. The downside is that the classes held for the “regular middle of the stream student” gets cancelled if there are not enough students in them. One year, my kid put a lot of thought into his next year schedule. He had to choose 12 different courses to cover the year. (6 per semester) When he got his preliminary schedule back, 8 had been cancelled “due to lack of student interest”. When he tried to get his 2nd choices, many classes were already filled so he was unable to get in. He ended up taking in some subjects, his 4th and 5th choices. Yet, the higher end students got their first picks every time, all the time. The sped students get stuck together. Fair?Maybe if the teachers would earn their salaries, they would be able to have these classes for the middle learners also and seperate the levels of sped. They would be able to have teachers teach instead of monitoring study halls. Why do teachers earning $70,000 (and up) sit and monitor study halls. All I ask is to let them teach for their money!I’d want to know more than somebody’s glib manipulation of
: statistics. There are lies…: There are big problems, too, and money going all kinds of strange
: places. How much of a sped budget goes to adminstrative duties
: & lawyers’ fees to keep things looking legal at the expense of
: the kids? Looking at numbers and getting righteously indignant, in
: the long run, does who what kind of good? What would you like done
: about it? Cut the salaries?: Here’s another side to the story…

: No, teachers are not all perfect, nor are all engineers or any other profession. Bad apples in any profession make the rest of us look bad. Most of us do earn our money.The special ed. system in many areas is a significant part of the problem special ed. teachers face. Indeed, a teacher cannot simultaneously meet multiple needs in the same classroom, IEP or not.I stay at elementary because the secondary system is often so unworkable. You have no idea how many factors impact what the sped. teacher can actually do. I have known secondary teachers who are given classes that are mixed by grade level, subject matter, and handicap; then they are expected to meaningfully teach the whole group.Most of my students need intensive teaching to remediate. Even then I am short on time per student because the current trend to keep every child at home school and to cross-categorically place in the same program severely limits the time I can actually spend with students to meet their needs.I do the best I can. When the system (tax payers, Congress, etc.) decide they WANT better special ed. programs, they will hire more sped teachers so each of us can confine our efforts in a way to actually meaningfully help more students. Right now I am the only sped. teacher in a K-6 building. I serve a profoundly retarded child (who has an aide), an autistic child, a child with muscular dystrophy, an aphasic child, and an assortment of LD children at varying grade levels in varying areas. I have one instructional aide and i must somehow schedule every child/need into our day so that they all get meaningful instruction.We make a difference, but I know we could do more, with another teacher I could split the grade levels and/or the exceptionalities.

EMAILNOTICES>noPASSWORD>aaetA44bKITAIOur district does not have those problems. There are 7 alternative schools that deal with the LD, BD, mentally handicapped, and physically handicapped according to their levels of disabilities and combinations. Teaching multiple students with different handicaps is not the problem in the regular high school. The sped classes consist of 8 to 9 students only who mainly need remediation. You sound overworked. It appears that you try your best and would probably be labeled as an excellent exceptional teacher. I wish there were more like you. Teachers like you are the ones who make the difference in the students lives. Teachers like you are the ones who really are dedicated.: The special ed. system in many areas is a significant part of the
: problem special ed. teachers face. Indeed, a teacher cannot
: simultaneously meet multiple needs in the same classroom, IEP or
: not.: I stay at elementary because the secondary system is often so
: unworkable. You have no idea how many factors impact what the
: sped. teacher can actually do. I have known secondary teachers who
: are given classes that are mixed by grade level, subject matter,
: and handicap; then they are expected to meaningfully teach the
: whole group.: Most of my students need intensive teaching to remediate. Even then I
: am short on time per student because the current trend to keep
: every child at home school and to cross-categorically place in the
: same program severely limits the time I can actually spend with
: students to meet their needs.: I do the best I can. When the system (tax payers, Congress, etc.)
: decide they WANT better special ed. programs, they will hire more
: sped teachers so each of us can confine our efforts in a way to
: actually meaningfully help more students. Right now I am the only
: sped. teacher in a K-6 building. I serve a profoundly retarded
: child (who has an aide), an autistic child, a child with muscular
: dystrophy, an aphasic child, and an assortment of LD children at
: varying grade levels in varying areas. I have one instructional
: aide and i must somehow schedule every child/need into our day so
: that they all get meaningful instruction.: We make a difference, but I know we could do more, with another
: teacher I could split the grade levels and/or the
: exceptionalities.

:Looking at numbers and getting righteously indignant can lead to change, in the short run or the long run. Righteous indignation is indeed the right of taxpayers. Questioning the system should be seen as a good thing, not a threatening thing. America’s public schools are tax-supported schools. Following tax dollars is a right in a democratic society.As to what could be done about it, I’d like to see teacher’s salaries tied to a merit performance, not to length of experience or post-bachelor’s degree credits earned. I’d like to see every parent surveyed and teachers paid on the basis of those surveys. If most parents are happy with the teacher’s performance, then a raise should be awarded. If a teacher can’t make most of the parents of his/her students happy, then that teacher deserves to know what they could be doing differently but certainly doesn’t deserve a raise in a institution where salaries derive solely from tax dollars.I’m a teacher and year after year I get wonderful feedback from my parents and my students and my colleagues. But at the end of every year, I get the same raise as the teacher next door whose teaching is uniformly disliked by her parents, students, and colleagues. That’s wrong. Her work does meet the needs of the parents whose tuition dollars pay her salary. Why does she get the same raise as me? What kind of a false message does that send her?I don’t think the public would mind teachers’ salaries if they felt those teachers were accountable to their communities. People need to feel they’re getting something for their money and one important thing they need to feel is satisfied with the education their child is receiving from each teacher.For every good teacher out there, there’s a bad one and right now we have no way to improve the teaching of those bad teachers and no good way to let them know they need to improve.I’d want to know more than somebody’s glib manipulation of
: statistics. There are lies…: There are big problems, too, and money going all kinds of strange
: places. How much of a sped budget goes to adminstrative duties
: & lawyers’ fees to keep things looking legal at the expense of
: the kids? Looking at numbers and getting righteously indignant, in
: the long run, does who what kind of good? What would you like done
: about it? Cut the salaries?: Here’s another side to the story…

: : No, teachers are not all perfect, nor are all engineers or any other profession. Bad apples in any profession make the rest of us look bad.You’re right, of course, but most people feel teachers touch our children’s lives far more directly than do engineers. And if you don’t like your engineer, you can fire them and go and get another engineer. If you don’t like the teachers in your local public school, what can you do? What real recourse do you have?People need a way to make more input, to be more empowered, in their local public schools. They need to feel they have real ability to make a difference in their child’s education within the school itself. Modern parents are tired of hearing “teacher knows best”.Most of us do earn our money.Who determines that? It’s a pleasant statement but there’s no support, either way, for it. We simply don’t know if teachers “earn their money” or not. You and I both work hard but what does that mean?I can’t join you in a blanket acceptance of teachers’ salaries. I think there needs to be greater accountability in teachers’ performances. I think teachers need to be more accountable to the parents of the children they teach. In my ideal school, I’d base teachers’ salaries on the basis of the satisfaction ratings they received from surveys given annually to parents. If teachers can’t make most of their parents happy, there’s something wrong. If teachers can’t develop a comfortable rapport with most of their parents every year, they’re teaching in the wrong school.I watch some of my colleagues, year after year, alienate the parents of their students - and their students too. I think that’s poor teaching. If one is rude or dismissive to parents, if one doesn’t return parents’ phone calls, doesn’t treat their children with respect, I don’t think that teacher is earning their money…no matter what any standardized test shows.Until our schools give tax-paying parents more of a voice in those salaries, you’re going to have parents unhappy with them.The special ed. system in many areas is a significant part of the
: problem special ed. teachers face. Indeed, a teacher cannot
: simultaneously meet multiple needs in the same classroom, IEP or
: not.: I stay at elementary because the secondary system is often so
: unworkable. You have no idea how many factors impact what the
: sped. teacher can actually do. I have known secondary teachers who
: are given classes that are mixed by grade level, subject matter,
: and handicap; then they are expected to meaningfully teach the
: whole group.: Most of my students need intensive teaching to remediate. Even then I
: am short on time per student because the current trend to keep
: every child at home school and to cross-categorically place in the
: same program severely limits the time I can actually spend with
: students to meet their needs.: I do the best I can. When the system (tax payers, Congress, etc.)
: decide they WANT better special ed. programs, they will hire more
: sped teachers so each of us can confine our efforts in a way to
: actually meaningfully help more students. Right now I am the only
: sped. teacher in a K-6 building. I serve a profoundly retarded
: child (who has an aide), an autistic child, a child with muscular
: dystrophy, an aphasic child, and an assortment of LD children at
: varying grade levels in varying areas. I have one instructional
: aide and i must somehow schedule every child/need into our day so
: that they all get meaningful instruction.: We make a difference, but I know we could do more, with another
: teacher I could split the grade levels and/or the
: exceptionalities.

What a wonderful idea! When I went to public schools (graduated in 1974), I had far more mediocre teachers than good or bad. There were a few good ones, and a few more bad ones. Most of them, upon reflection, were merely putting in time. Now that my own two children are in public schools (ironically, the same public school system I attended for all 12 years), I find the situation only marginally improved. While my daughter’s first two teachers have been fine, my son (who is LD) has had two great teachers, a mediocre one and two truly horrible ones. I would have been delighted to have voted on whether or not to give them-good, bad and mediocre-pay raises. The schools should empower parents, and it’s great to hear a teacher saying it! Is there any way you could move to our school system and teach my children?: As to what could be done about it, I’d like to see teacher’s salaries
: tied to a merit performance, not to length of experience or
: post-bachelor’s degree credits earned. I’d like to see every
: parent surveyed and teachers paid on the basis of those surveys.
: If most parents are happy with the teacher’s performance, then a
: raise should be awarded. If a teacher can’t make most of the
: parents of his/her students happy, then that teacher deserves to
: know what they could be doing differently but certainly doesn’t
: deserve a raise in a institution where salaries derive solely from
: tax dollars.: I’m a teacher and year after year I get wonderful feedback from my
: parents and my students and my colleagues. But at the end of every
: year, I get the same raise as the teacher next door whose teaching
: is uniformly disliked by her parents, students, and colleagues.
: That’s wrong. Her work does meet the needs of the parents whose
: tuition dollars pay her salary. Why does she get the same raise as
: me? What kind of a false message does that send her?: I don’t think the public would mind teachers’ salaries if they felt
: those teachers were accountable to their communities. People need
: to feel they’re getting something for their money and one
: important thing they need to feel is satisfied with the education
: their child is receiving from each teacher.: For every good teacher out there, there’s a bad one and right now we
: have no way to improve the teaching of those bad teachers and no
: good way to let them know they need to improve.: I’d want to know more than somebody’s glib manipulation of

EMAILNOTICES>noPASSWORD>aaetA44bKITAIFinally!!! A teacher who understands the parent’s frustrations. This is exactly what I would want. No more and no less. Yes, definetely award the “good” teachers and let the others suffer the consequences of their actions. (or should I say lack of action) This is the exact problem of this school district. Teachers are salaried according to their educational degrees, bachelors, masters, etc. Those with bachelors will never reach the salary level of a teacher with a masters. It doesn’t matter that he can teach circles around the one with the masters. He will never be awarded appropriately. Why should an inexperienced teacher with a masters degree earn more than the teacher with a bachelors degree that has taught for many years? Maybe the masters degreed teacher is supposed to “know” more from the books and2 extra years of college,but in my rating, the teacher who has experience with the students and “knows” how to reach the student deserves a lot more credit. Right now the only real way we have to award the “real” teachers are with salaries, but are unable to do it. There is a teacher who has a bachelor’s degree who earns in the $40,000’s. I would consider him the best that my kid has had, yet there is a teacher with a masters degree who retired last year after 25 years earning close to $100,000 who everyone including other teachers at the school considered the worse teacher around. Nothing could be done. He had seniority, and kept getting raises like everyone else even though he basically did nothing.Why reward him?Reward the ones who are in teaching who actutally teach the students.: As to what could be done about it, I’d like to see teacher’s salaries
: tied to a merit performance, not to length of experience or
: post-bachelor’s degree credits earned. I’d like to see every
: parent surveyed and teachers paid on the basis of those surveys.
: If most parents are happy with the teacher’s performance, then a
: raise should be awarded. If a teacher can’t make most of the
: parents of his/her students happy, then that teacher deserves to
: know what they could be doing differently but certainly doesn’t
: deserve a raise in a institution where salaries derive solely from
: tax dollars.: I’m a teacher and year after year I get wonderful feedback from my
: parents and my students and my colleagues. But at the end of every
: year, I get the same raise as the teacher next door whose teaching
: is uniformly disliked by her parents, students, and colleagues.
: That’s wrong. Her work does meet the needs of the parents whose
: tuition dollars pay her salary. Why does she get the same raise as
: me? What kind of a false message does that send her?: I don’t think the public would mind teachers’ salaries if they felt
: those teachers were accountable to their communities. People need
: to feel they’re getting something for their money and one
: important thing they need to feel is satisfied with the education
: their child is receiving from each teacher.: For every good teacher out there, there’s a bad one and right now we
: have no way to improve the teaching of those bad teachers and no
: good way to let them know they need to improve.: I’d want to know more than somebody’s glib manipulation of

: Then, let us close the public schools and let all teachers go into private practice! Then we can feast or famine, and we would also have the choice not to service extemely cranky and uncooperative clients (a option we do not have, as we are essentially captive). What about the profoundly retarded child on my caseload whose mother is in denial about his needs and who successfully commandeers a disproportionate portion of my day and time? How do we handle these situations in public service? In private practice I would simply refuse to service this woman and her child. Let’s make this work both ways.

: Yes, let us end public schools once and for all. You can hire and select your child’s teacher, fire at will. The teacher will have the same rights. I am all for this and it will end entitlements, preferential treatment and parents will have the same power as all other consumers.

Your are too kind. There is much wrong with our school system. I, however do not share Sara’s view on merit raises based on parent satisfaction. This has been looked at and is very difficult to implement for many reasons. We may be going toward some other method of assessing teachers for raises based on teaching standards and multi-factored evaluations. Teachers are getting really worried about getting disproportionate numbers of really low children, disproportionate numbers of difficult parents (yes, there are bad parents, just like there are bad teachers and engineers, even bad doctors). It is tough to implement and to do so in a fair manner. Parent satisfaction would probably never be the major indicator.

: You are an angry man!!! You need to get some professional help to vent your anger. You should be grateful that our country provides a free public education. All you want to do is grip.I don’t know how many other sped parents are struggling to make ends
: meet so you can get the “best” for your kid whether it
: be tutoring, therapy, or whatever. If you are like me, then you
: don’t have much money to “waste” on the frivilous
: things. Savings go for tutors, doctors, testing, etc.: If you live in Illinois you might want to go to a very informative
: website www.thechampion.org: You can search for the salaries of any teacher or school district for
: the past two years. It was very enlightening to say the least. Our
: school is always having troubles with the budget. (they say) The
: district needs more taxes to raise more money for more projects.
: Unfortunately never any more money it seems for sped.: Here is what I learned about my son’s school.: There is a total of 129 teachers and administrators. Here is how
: their salaries break down: 18 earn more than $100,000: 25 earn in the $90,000’s: 27 earn in the $80,000’s: 18 earn in the $70,000’s: 9 earn in the $60,000’s: 14 earn in the $50,000’s: 9 earn in the $40,000’s: 9 earn $30,000 or below because they only teach part-time. Some as
: little as 20%.: This means that 75% earn more than $60,000 and teach for 9 months. A
: lot of the teachers also earn even more because they take summer
: jobs of tutoring, summer school, etc.: Yes, I know the old adage that they do more because they must prepare
: for tests, correct homework, etc. but how many of us, who are not
: teachers, can honestly say that when we leave work we don’t do
: anything more connected to work. It seems not many. Most of us
: also have work to take home, presentations to prepare, and the
: multiple other things required to keep up with the job. We work
: just as hard as the teachers but we must work 12 months a year.
: and many of us earn a heck of a lot less than $70,000.: If you live in Illinois, you might want to check the web site. You
: can search either by teacher’s name, district, or individual
: school. You might be surprised!

EMAILNOTICES>noPASSWORD>aaetA44bKITAIAgreed!Maybe if the teachers did go private, then the parents in denial and the “troublesome” ones would look at themselves a little more closely when they would be refused the service.Right now, we pick all of the people who are important in our kids’ lives (doctors, dentists, therapists,.) by their experience and how well they “mesh” with us and our kids. How many of us had to change doctors because we just didn’t feel comfortable with the way he treated our kid. Maybe if we could do something like that with teachers, then we would be able to find a teacher who the parent and kids could mesh with. The good ones would be rewarded and the poor quality teachers would have to re-look at their teaching methods.

Following tax dollars is a right in a democratic society. Suggesting change within public institutions is another. Those rights are a part of the process that is a democracy.The right you’re asking for - the right to refuse to have a child in a tax-supported public school is yet another. At least in my state.Public schools may refuse to have a child but they are then obligated to pay the child’s tuition to an independent school.Indeed, the model you’re suggesting of open enrollment is already in place in the independent schools. Independent schools can deny a child entrance or readmission. Unlike public schools, independent schools are free to define themselves and target at particular needs. In my area, there are several independent schools for severely retarded children such as the poor child you describe. They are expensive, insurance doesn’t always cover everything but more than a few children’s tuition is paid by their public school which has deemed themselves unable to teach those children.You’re asking for a right you probably already have.

I don’t see the scenario you’re painting as very realistic but I may misunderstand what you’re saying. Rather, you would be able to choose your school and rechoose at will. The public schools in this country did not exist prior to 1836 and the system you’re trying to describe was in place then. Parents chose their schools. I doubt then or now parents had the authority to fire a single teacher but they could take their child and their tuition dollar elsewhere.Our government has been involved in education for so long now I don’t think it’s realistic to believe that it can or will abruptly end its involvement. In my state, though, the government is very friendly to the charter schools. Tax-supported school they are, the chater schools and their teachers yet have the right to refuse enrollment to students and parents have the right to choose among the schools.

: No, Sara, I do not already have the right you mentioned. I do not have the right to choose not to work with Mrs. “V.” because she is a nasty and unreasonable woman who comes to school angry with me and the rest of the world around her. I do not have the right to refuse to sit in meetings with her and listen to her excuses of why her son should not be asked to do school work or why he cannot (ADHD) do any school work, I do have to tolerate her blatant anti-school, beligerent and oppositional behavior in front of her child. I have to be even and work with her so she doesn’t try to sue us, I even have to stretch guidelines to service her child because she makes threats. I have also had to spend over a year dealing with the denial of the parent who has placed her profoundly retarded child in our general ed. class because she hopes it will change his prognosis. Both she and her child are huge time takers. Her child should be in an appropiate program, but the law gives her the right to refuse to go along with the team recommendations and the burden of proof falls on us, so we deal with this over a period of time to create the papertrail we must have to win in a due process against her. If I were in private practice I could choose the students I work with. If I were in private practice I would not have to operate in “fear” of threatening parents, I would not have to be “yelled” at by Mrs. “V.” In private practice I would have some say so and some rights. Then I would welcome the opportunity for my clients to evaluate me, I would even be eager for referrals. By the same token, if I felt I could not help a child, I would be totally free to say so and would not have to invest hours and hours in writing IEPs full of goals that may not happen and hours and hours into trying to make them happen. Finally, when the district throws up its hands and pays for private placement, almost never, that child can and will bounce back to the public school/teacher if the private school chooses expulsion.The way the present system is set up I have very few rights. I must bow to parents (most parents I like) and I must pretend to be capable of handling every exceptionality, every issue or problem that comes my way, despite the fact that I chose to major in LD and take my masters in reading. In private practice I would confine my endeavors to LD and very likely would not find myself being a jack of all trades, unable to do any of them really well in the current environment of noncategorical, inclusive programs.

: Then your state is very different from mine. Here public schools may reject a student and do reject students although, of course, the district must then pay the student’s tuition elsewhere. Logic demands there are some children whose needs can’t be met in the public sector. Small districts near me particularly are not equipped to handle everything that comes their way and refer those kids out. Whose decision is it that you’re not allowed to refer any children out?I must pretend to be
: capable of handling every exceptionality,I don’t understand that but if you have to do that, that must be frustrating. Why do you have to do that?We all of us work in different environments but for what it’s worth, my school used to ask me to do that but I simply won’t do it anymore. It’s a lie and lies are insulting to us. Why must lie? Would you be fired if you did not?To me, it’s absurd that I would say to every parent that I can handle every issue. I have very gifted children in my school and some very challenged children as well. Logic and common sense demand that not all those very diverse needs can be met in one school. I found that the day I stopped trying to tell parents that I could handle everything was the day my relationship with parents found a new horizon. My parents were so pleased that my administrators allowed my truth-telling to continue.Right now I have the opposite problem from the one you describe. I have a student with a full scale IQ of 147 and with no discernible glitches anywhere except in his patience. This kid is bored out of his gourd. The parents are demanding that he be challenged more. We have some bright kids here but the idea that any of our classrooms can be structured to meet this kid’s needs is absurd.Why should I pretend elsewise? I’ll do the best I can but he’s, as you say, an exceptionality. I try to cast a wide net but I can’t meet every child’s needs. I’m always trying but my best efforts may not always be successful.Having to pretend is like having to lie. It can’t feel good to you.
: that comes my way, despite the fact that I chose to major in LD
: and take my masters in reading. In private practice I would
: confine my endeavors to LD and very likely would not find myself
: being a jack of all trades, unable to do any of them really well
: in the current environment of noncategorical, inclusive programs.

: Sara, school districts do not like to refer students out and pay for private placement.Laws and the interpretation of the laws change. When I decided to major in special ed. I did so because I was very interested in reading disability. I took a master’s in reading. I was able to select an emphasis and I chose LD. This was the ‘70’s. There was no full-inclusion at that time. Many programs in my area were categorical.General ed. teachers and resource teachers did not expect to have to contend with a plethora of handicaps that span years and years of human development and needs in one setting. The pendulum has swung dramatically. Parents have the right to refuse services and programs, they have the right to demand inclusion. We must serve every child in our school, regardless of severity and of handicap. The more severe the child, the more clout the parent has, the more seriously the SD takes their threats. We have no real control over our jobs. My concern with your original statement was simply if we are to use parental satisfaction as the measure for teacher raises, then in all fairness we teachers should have greater control over our classrooms and circumstances. Without any real control, we can become the effect of any number of things. For instance, how can I give adequate time to my LD students when I must allocate 1:1 time to a profoundly retarded youngster each day (1 hour, deducted from the school day), particularly when I do not believe he should be placed in a general ed. setting/he should not be on my caseload. I have lost an hour of teaching time to service his needs each day (basically 45 minutes of this is to give a break to the 1:1 aide and 15 is to consult with her, etc.). This year I find myself also becoming a language therapist. I have 2 first graders who have verbal IQ of 50 on my caseload and I am tasked with teaching them language for 90 minutes per day. Take 90 more minutes off the time I have available to teach my LD students. How am I to please parents well if I cannot arrange a caseload and a schedule that will permit me the luxury of adequate time to engage my LD students in enough intense instruction? How can I get into several different rooms at the same time to ensure the ADHD students I am responsible for are organized and on task?Each year things change, some years are a nightmare of trying to accomplish 10 hours of teaching needs in a 6 hour school day. We teachers at the building level do not have much control at all over our situations. This is why I am getting to the point that I truly would like to ditch all public education and let the profession go private. This too has its drawbacks, but private practitioners have the right to say, “If you continue to do xxx, I cannot help you. Please find another therapist.” The rights you state that I have are actually held by my district, not by me personally. If I want to keep my job, then I do not fly in the face of what my district expects (demands) me to do.I agree that evaluating teachers is a complex issue. However, if our salaries were tied primarily to parental satisfaction, then we would become smooth talking sales persons who might become more interested in PR and talk than in results. There is this danger, coupled with the fact that sometimes we recognize good/bad teachers more in retrospect. One year is a very short time, so the teacher would have to scramble to make a strong first impression, perhaps engage in behaviors that had little substance, but looked and felt good. Teacher evaluations always raise many questions, perhaps more than we have answered.

I’d love to know where the system of parent satisfaction surveys tied to teacher pay has been tried. I know four states that are using parent satisfaction surveys to generate district satisfaction ratings but I’ve never heard of any state or district that has gone beyond that. Right now I participate in our district’s strategic planning and merit pay is being put into the new contract. What is will be based on, though, is teachers’ results on a test taken in the subject area. to me, that doesn’t work. Someone might have good knowledge of their subject area and yet be unable to teach it.It’s also true that in our community increasing numbers of parents and community members feel disenfranchised and want to have more effective input into their school districts than the old methods allow.I got the idea from my doctor’s office. My doctor’s group participates in a program with my insurance company where they are paid a monthly fee for my care but if the annual satisfaction survey I send in indicates that if 65% of their insured patients are happy with their , the doctors’ office gets more than than their monthly fee. My doctor’s office is incentivized to provide good care and the insurance company looks to have that 65% figure rise every year.While I like to think I always got good medical care, at this office I get even more. I get polite receptionists’, I get doctor’s who don’t keep me waiting very long, and doctors who return my calls promptly as those are all questions on the satisfaction survey.Of course, you can choose your doctor’s office and rechoose if you’re not happy. It might not be fair to enact such a system so long as schools are burdened with parents who do not have the freedom to choose between schools.I can’t claim it as my original idea as I borrowed it from the medical world but I’d still be interested to know those districts where it was tried.My grandfather said women would never vote. Since then I don’t say never about too much. The principal of my son’s old school said it would never happen that schools would be forced to take state-mandated states and have those results published in the newspaper and have districts compared to each other on the basis of those tests. I regret that I believed her or I would have seen the standards movement coming.and : Your are too kind. There is much wrong with our school system. I,
: however do not share Sara’s view on merit raises based on parent
: satisfaction. This has been looked at and is very difficult to
: implement for many reasons. We may be going toward some other
: method of assessing teachers for raises based on teaching
: standards and multi-factored evaluations. Teachers are getting
: really worried about getting disproportionate numbers of really
: low children, disproportionate numbers of difficult parents (yes,
: there are bad parents, just like there are bad teachers and
: engineers, even bad doctors). It is tough to implement and to do
: so in a fair manner. Parent satisfaction would probably never be
: the major indicator.

:
::
: Sara, as I am repeating, the choice in free enterprise, free choice works in both directions. I believe it is essential to allow both the practitioners and the consumers choice. W/O choice for both parties, you do not have a contract between willing parties who have both implicitly pledged to do their utmost. Youngsters continue to spend far more of their childhoods outside of school than inside school. Much of the success that can be had in school is predicated upon what has taken place outside of school and continues to take place out side of schoo. A doctor can and will sever relations with a patient for whom he or she is not comfortable taking responsibility (a patient who blatently disregards the doctor’s orders in a life threatening situation). Enabling both parties to make choices and live with them creates the kind of accountability I think you are looking for.Indeed, you are right about doctor’s offices. Try getting that call back!!! My district has a 24 hour policy, every parent receives a response within 24 hours……….or else! A parent can report this kind of infraction to the administration and this WILL effect a teacher’s evaluation (though perhaps not her salary at this time). Most of us respond in 24 hours (usually the same day) because we understand that the parent who called has a need to have a concern addressed, NOW. Most of us treat parents with the same courtesy we ourselves like to be treated.Parents have the right at this very moment to communicate their satisfaction or lack of satisfaction to a teacher’s administrators. Administrators will almost always take notice of concerns when parents express them.

Sara, its happining all ready. My travels take me accross oh about 27 districts at this point (all in Ohio) we have public and private charter schools popping up left and right. As you may know charter schools, in ohio, are bound by all the same laws as public schools are regarding IDEA, and when one of my children go to a charter school, their money goes with them, both the district money and the federal. And yes many of them are specilizing in working with sp-ed children, some are doing an exceptional job, and they are tipping the scales in the “customer service” and enthusiasm departments. If Bush gets his way in addition to charter schools vouchers Will be given to unsatasfied parents so they may send their children to private schools. while this isnt the same as basing a individual teachers pay on their consumer reports, as more and more consumers leave the current monopoly of public schools, you better believe the people in charge of the cash flow at the district level will sit up and start developing “standards” for teacher/parent and teacher/student relations. were on our way

: I certainly agree that choice can and should work both ways and that in that rprocess, greater accountability is created. I think that’s already technically in place for the districts although the decision to not have a student too often goes unelected resulting in district’s retaining kids they cannot teach. Teachers are certainly caught in the middle on this but I can’t see that as either the parents’ or the students’ doing. Rather it is the flaw of the system and the way it’s designed.Which brings us back to the first posts in this thread which suggested change in the system.I can’t share your comfort level in making generalizations about teachers in the small system for which I work as you can for public schools in general. My state has hundreds of public school districts and thousands of public schools. I wouldn’t have any ability to gather data on how most teachers interact with their parents in either the public or the independent schools. How teachers are incentivized to interact is my interest rather than how one assumes they interact.That your district has a policy is a sign of an enlightened system. The public schools in which my children were once enrolled did not have such an enlightened policy. The independent school in which I teach once did but sadly it is no longer in place. Without good information gathering, it’s virtually impossible to know how widespread such a good practice is among any system of schools.If all schools had such good policies as does yours, we’d see fewer angry parents and possibly more compliant ones too.Indeed parents can complain but the response to complaints is a varying thing. Again, I don’t know that we can generalize off the good practices of your district or your state. I continue to feel I’d like to see a structured response that incentivizes teachers in your school or mine to respond in a timely and responsive manner.I’m going to be hard to talk out of this. It’s worked so well in my doctor’s office and I pay so much in school tax dollars every year that I’d like to see this happen in my district and those others to which my tax dollar goes.Indeed, you are right about doctor’s offices. Try getting that call
: back!!! My district has a 24 hour policy, every parent receives a
: response within 24 hours……….or else! A parent can report
: this kind of infraction to the administration and this WILL effect
: a teacher’s evaluation (though perhaps not her salary at this
: time). Most of us respond in 24 hours (usually the same day)
: because we understand that the parent who called has a need to
: have a concern addressed, NOW. Most of us treat parents with the
: same courtesy we ourselves like to be treated.: Parents have the right at this very moment to communicate their
: satisfaction or lack of satisfaction to a teacher’s
: administrators. Administrators will almost always take notice of
: concerns when parents express them.

: : Sara, school districts do not like to refer students out and pay for private placement.I understand but that they do not like to do it does not mean they do not have the right to do it. They do. As the law reads, public schools have the existing right to refuse students. Our discussion was not the point of whether districts like to do this but rather about whether the right for districts to refuse students existed.Happily it does. Unhappily, perhaps, it too often goes unelected. I would need help to understand how that is the fault of parents or students. It would seem to me that it is a flaw in the design of the system. A flaw the impact of which falls onto the teachers who are asked to teach those exceptionalities they cannot teach.Families don’t have the right yet in many states to elect a different school. Thus families and teachers are trapped by this flaw in the system. As we know, we can’t teach all exceptionalities. Yet the fact that districts do not like to place students in private placement keeps parents, students, and teachers trapped in the same place. As you’ve said, teachers are asked to pretend to be able to teach children that they can’t teach and families need to accept the pretense.Such things understandably lead to frustration and even anger on both sides. Your first point, I believe, was that it was impossible to make certain parents happy and I begin to see that point. When districts will not elect to place a student privately and parents do not have the right to elect a different placement, it can breed tremendous ill will.Given this, it may be too much at present to have teacher salaries tied to parental satisfaction. How can one possibly make consumers happy when they have no other choice? It stacks the deck against satisfaction. I need to think about this but perhaps school choice should then precede all other changes as we work to for improved school/consumer relationships.For me, then, the question would become, in the absence of choice, how to offer parents and the community greater input into their districts? As you so aptly point out, people need to feel empowered. Does the whole thing hinge on choice?Minnesota pioneered choice. Perhaps they have the answer.Laws and the interpretation of the laws change. When I decided to
: major in special ed. I did so because I was very interested in
: reading disability. I took a master’s in reading. I was able to
: select an emphasis and I chose LD. This was the ‘70’s. There was
: no full-inclusion at that time. Many programs in my area were
: categorical.General ed. teachers and resource teachers did not
: expect to have to contend with a plethora of handicaps that span
: years and years of human development and needs in one setting. The
: pendulum has swung dramatically. Parents have the right to refuse
: services and programs, they have the right to demand inclusion. We
: must serve every child in our school, regardless of severity and
: of handicap. The more severe the child, the more clout the parent
: has, the more seriously the SD takes their threats. We have no
: real control over our jobs. My concern with your original
: statement was simply if we are to use parental satisfaction as the
: measure for teacher raises, then in all fairness we teachers
: should have greater control over our classrooms and circumstances.
: Without any real control, we can become the effect of any number
: of things. For instance, how can I give adequate time to my LD
: students when I must allocate 1:1 time to a profoundly retarded
: youngster each day (1 hour, deducted from the school day),
: particularly when I do not believe he should be placed in a
: general ed. setting/he should not be on my caseload. I have lost
: an hour of teaching time to service his needs each day (basically
: 45 minutes of this is to give a break to the 1:1 aide and 15 is to
: consult with her, etc.). This year I find myself also becoming a
: language therapist. I have 2 first graders who have verbal IQ of
: 50 on my caseload and I am tasked with teaching them language for
: 90 minutes per day. Take 90 more minutes off the time I have
: available to teach my LD students. How am I to please parents well
: if I cannot arrange a caseload and a schedule that will permit me
: the luxury of adequate time to engage my LD students in enough
: intense instruction? How can I get into several different rooms at
: the same time to ensure the ADHD students I am responsible for are
: organized and on task?: Each year things change, some years are a nightmare of trying to
: accomplish 10 hours of teaching needs in a 6 hour school day. We
: teachers at the building level do not have much control at all
: over our situations. This is why I am getting to the point that I
: truly would like to ditch all public education and let the
: profession go private. This too has its drawbacks, but private
: practitioners have the right to say, “If you continue to do
: xxx, I cannot help you. Please find another therapist.” The
: rights you state that I have are actually held by my district, not
: by me personally. If I want to keep my job, then I do not fly in
: the face of what my district expects (demands) me to do.: I agree that evaluating teachers is a complex issue. However, if our
: salaries were tied primarily to parental satisfaction, then we
: would become smooth talking sales persons who might become more
: interested in PR and talk than in results. There is this danger,
: coupled with the fact that sometimes we recognize good/bad
: teachers more in retrospect. One year is a very short time, so the
: teacher would have to scramble to make a strong first impression,
: perhaps engage in behaviors that had little substance, but looked
: and felt good. Teacher evaluations always raise many questions,
: perhaps more than we have answered.

: Sara, I’ll keep this short, because I am getting out of line here. We do not have the right to refuse to serve children at public school. We cannot make a parent take a private placement, even if we think it is best, if that parent wants their child in our local school.If a child brings drugs or a gun to school, then we have some rights to remove the child. It said child has an IEP, we must convene manifestation hearings.The system we have gives us few options. Parents have few and we have few. The profoundly retarded child I have on caseload is at the neighborhood school because parents demand so. They would not agree to another placement, public or private. Matters not to the parents whether or not we have the space, facilities or training to meet child’s needs. Parents want their way for their own reasons (which we may not agree with, but look good to them).

: You don’t seem out of line to me but I do understand your point. You have the right to offer alternative placement but not to refuse service even though districts are very reluctant to offer the alternatives. There’s a difference between the ability to offer alternative placement and the right to refuse service and you’ve explained the difference very well.So that in public service, one is stuck with the public. I could believe that must be frustrating.From your other thread I also understand that without school choice - without enabling parents to have an alternative choice - that to allow them input into faculty salaries is unfair. The frustration they understandably feel at being trapped in a school may express itself unfairly in their satisfaction ratings with a particular teacher.I found this exchange enlightening. I need then to think about how to empower the public in their schools in a way that is fair. Or how to incentivize faculty, in your school or mine, to higher performance.Is it true that until school choice comes, there’s nothing more to be done? Or what if the standardized tests were replaced with school wide satisfaction surveys and schools were awarded payments based on those surveys? Those surveys would not be done on individual teachers but done rather on the entire school.I think we’ve hit on something here.If a child brings drugs or a gun to school, then we have some rights
: to remove the child. It said child has an IEP, we must convene
: manifestation hearings.: The system we have gives us few options. Parents have few and we have
: few. The profoundly retarded child I have on caseload is at the
: neighborhood school because parents demand so. They would not
: agree to another placement, public or private. Matters not to the
: parents whether or not we have the space, facilities or training
: to meet child’s needs. Parents want their way for their own
: reasons (which we may not agree with, but look good to them).

I’m siding with the teacher here.20 years ago, when I was in school in a poor, blue-collar town, most parent already taught their children right from wrong, basic manners, and rudimentary ABCs and numbers BEFORE they even started school. This was true regardless of the child’s intellect. Smart kids didn’t sass back and slower kids were just slower (a lot of them were the youngest in the grade, so they did catch up and even pass the rest of us).We had discipline and consequences for bad behavior and parents reinforced these messages at home.Now, it seems that teachers have to do the parents’ roles with no help at all from parents. If they could just concentrate on reading and math, especially at the primary grades, and be able to manage disruptive students (and disruptive parents), I bet the kids and teachers would be much better off.No way would I ever teach. If anyone hits me or spits on me or curses at me, I can file a lawsuit and retire a rich woman. For teachers, it’s all in a day’s work and they make no money for what is combat pay.: You’re right, of course, but most people feel teachers touch our
: children’s lives far more directly than do engineers. And if you
: don’t like your engineer, you can fire them and go and get another
: engineer. If you don’t like the teachers in your local public
: school, what can you do? What real recourse do you have?: People need a way to make more input, to be more empowered, in their
: local public schools. They need to feel they have real ability to
: make a difference in their child’s education within the school
: itself. Modern parents are tired of hearing “teacher knows
: best”.: Most of us do earn our money.: Who determines that? It’s a pleasant statement but there’s no
: support, either way, for it. We simply don’t know if teachers
: “earn their money” or not. You and I both work hard but
: what does that mean?: I can’t join you in a blanket acceptance of teachers’ salaries. I
: think there needs to be greater accountability in teachers’
: performances. I think teachers need to be more accountable to the
: parents of the children they teach. In my ideal school, I’d base
: teachers’ salaries on the basis of the satisfaction ratings they
: received from surveys given annually to parents. If teachers can’t
: make most of their parents happy, there’s something wrong. If
: teachers can’t develop a comfortable rapport with most of their
: parents every year, they’re teaching in the wrong school.: I watch some of my colleagues, year after year, alienate the parents
: of their students - and their students too. I think that’s poor
: teaching. If one is rude or dismissive to parents, if one doesn’t
: return parents’ phone calls, doesn’t treat their children with
: respect, I don’t think that teacher is earning their money…no
: matter what any standardized test shows.: Until our schools give tax-paying parents more of a voice in those
: salaries, you’re going to have parents unhappy with them.: The special ed. system in many areas is a significant part of the