one final thought on teacher's salaries

: One final thought on teacher’s salaries. Why would a teacher who is
: doing a good job teaching be afraid to have her yearly pay raise
: linked to the satisfaction of her students and student’s parents?I didn’t understand that when this discussion first started but I came to understand it better through the discussion.Unless there is school choice, parents can feel trapped in their schools. That feeling of being trapped can spill over into feelings about the individual teacher.After thinking about this, I’m wondering if it wouldn’t be better to allow parents to rate their school - or even their teacher - but rather than have it impact on the teachers’ salary - have it impact on extra moneies awarded by the state - or not awarded - in accordance with the satisfaction of the public.That’s the way the standardized tests are now used. Schools that achieve certain scores on those tests are awarded extra monies. Rather than those tests, I think I’d like to see school satisfaction surveys in place.: Sure, you are not going to please all of the people all of the time.
: If you please the majority of the parents the majority of the time
: though, you could be rated as “good” or
: “excellent”. The more people you please, the higher pay
: raise you get. Isn’t that the way it is in the real world? The
: better job you do (satisfy the customers/clients) the better your
: yearly evaluation/yearly raise? Why do teachers expect a raise no
: matter how they teach? Is it fair that the inadequate teachers get
: the same salary and raises as those who put their whole heart into
: their teaching? Let those who love teaching and actually teach,
: get their just awards, a larger pay check than those who just bide
: their time.

To link teacher pay to either standardized tests or satisfaction surveys is not a good idea at all. In the first instance, those schools who typically fare better on tests, suburban upper-middle class schools would be paying better without teachers being directly responsible (which is much the situation now in those states which have not leveled the playing field with revenie sharing). In the latter case, you encourage the teachers not to set and maintain high standards, but to be popular.It is even worse when you think of this being applied to special ed programs (I believe Georgia is already doing this). What will happen is IEP’s will become so watered down that mastery of benchmark skills is unavoidable instead of presenting adequate challenge that the child will be “pushed” to reach for a higher achievement.No teacher’s pay is right about where it should be actually. Pay too much and you will attract too many gold-brickers (like law does now), pay too little and you will thin the talent pool too far, and be stuck with whomever is willing to work for so little. Afterall, with the possible exceptions of Alaska, Hawaii, and Conneticut teachers make more than the average salary for the communities they reside in, which despite the difficulties making ends meet on one job does give them a tremendous leg up over more than half the families of the children they teach. Remember, no one should eer go into teaching looking to get rich, it is a career that should be taken by those who believe in what they are doing.A better solution is to eliminate tenure and put teachers on renewable contracts like other professions must use. That way the bad apples can be weeded out, making room for those who will do a better job.: I didn’t understand that when this discussion first started but I
: came to understand it better through the discussion.: Unless there is school choice, parents can feel trapped in their
: schools. That feeling of being trapped can spill over into
: feelings about the individual teacher.: After thinking about this, I’m wondering if it wouldn’t be better to
: allow parents to rate their school - or even their teacher - but
: rather than have it impact on the teachers’ salary - have it
: impact on extra moneies awarded by the state - or not awarded - in
: accordance with the satisfaction of the public.: That’s the way the standardized tests are now used. Schools that
: achieve certain scores on those tests are awarded extra monies.
: Rather than those tests, I think I’d like to see school
: satisfaction surveys in place.

: In the latter case, you encourage the teachers not to set and maintain high standards, but to be popular.I think though that what makes teachers popular with parents is the setting of high standards in the classroom. Parents appreciate the teachers who really teach their children and in whose classrooms they feel good learning occurs.where it should be actually. Pay too
: much and you will attract too many gold-brickers (like law does
: now), pay too little and you will thin the talent pool too far,
: and be stuck with whomever is willing to work for so little.
: Afterall, with the possible exceptions of Alaska, Hawaii, and
: Conneticut teachers make more than the average salary for the
: communities they reside in, which despite the difficulties making
: ends meet on one job does give them a tremendous leg up over more
: than half the families of the children they teach. Remember, no
: one should eer go into teaching looking to get rich, it is a
: career that should be taken by those who believe in what they are
: doing.: A better solution is to eliminate tenure and put teachers on
: renewable contracts like other professions must use. That way the
: bad apples can be weeded out, making room for those who will do a
: better job.

I have to say I absolutely agree with a. a renewable contract,and b. that popular teachers= usually, good teachers. BUT,I think the district administrators make way too much money,with little support being given to the teacher. They are all more than willing to make the decision on whether or not this curriculum is given,or how many students can recieve OT,for their handwriting,but then when it comes time to be held accountable,who do they allow to take the fall? Sure seems like a no win situation to me,but in the end,who is riding around town in the BMW? Granted the teacher didn’t go into it for the money,but I bet they didn’t count on a job,where they are asked to do an unmanagbale job,with no support from higher up. Heck,they need more money,for the malpractice insurance.: I think though that what makes teachers popular with parents is the
: setting of high standards in the classroom. Parents appreciate the
: teachers who really teach their children and in whose classrooms
: they feel good learning occurs.: where it should be actually. Pay too

: I personally have a problem with having raises linked to parent satisfaction. There are many factors in teaching. My job is not first and foremost to please parents. To accomplish this, there are probably several time consuming things I could do that would have little impact on my teaching effectiveness. We teach to help the students. Working with parents amiably is a part of the job, but not necessarily the major portion of the job. Once again, allow me to state, if you want us working directly for parents, if parent satisfaction is and should be the major issue, then let us work independently. Give us and the parents complete control over our decisions. Do not require us to fulfill adjunct district duties that are time consuming and may detract from the time we can invest in keeping parents happy. Parent feedback may be one portion of the total evaluation process, not the majority portion.

EMAILNOTICES>noPASSWORD>aa.WKuN.MsKscIf all parents were like the one’s who frequent this board, then popularity would probably equal good teaching. Unfortunately, there are many different types of parents out there, some good, some not so good. What about those who fail to discipline their children based on a need to be their child’s “friend”— how dare the teacher expect respectful behavior and put their “little angel” in time out? (Guess she’ll be eating beans and wearing hand-me-downs). It’s scary how many highly educated parents I’ve met who think kindergarteners must be sitting at desks doing worksheets to learn— and denigrate the teacher and/or program for not being “academic” enough. Should we give up developmentally appropriate practice to please parents who have little understanding of child development/educational psychology?

Teachers are just not like us folks in the working world. In good and bad ways. My best biology teacher in high school was hated for not being an easy grader like the other teacher and for making us do things like, oh, WORK. When I got to college, I placed out of two semesters (worth $$$ in credits I didn’t have to pay for) of biology. It was a good thing for her that there wasn’t merit pay because most kids parents thought she was trying to screw over their kids. Get rid of tenure and maybe you’d get rid of the bad ones.

Anyway, think of the crap that they put up with. If people yell at me, they get fired. If people hit me, they get fired and probably get a big payment not to sue. Everyone around me is potty trained. I can get calls at my desk and take vacations year round (except for the affording it thing!). If teachers didn’t have to put up with stuff like that, maybe I’d teach. But I’d like to be somewhere where I’m not going to get bitten or pick up lice.

Want to reward a good school system and punish a bad one? Put your money where your mouth is and buy a house in a good district and then do everything you can to help that school out. You and your kids won’t regret it and maybe residents of bad district will begin to demand changes as their property values go down.

I am incredibly surprised at the comments in this discussion. First I want to say that I moved from a corporate business position to a school position. I work longer hours and much harder (as do my colleagues) than I ever did in business. And there I worked long hours and with high stress.

If you pay teachers for student performance, then you create an incentive for good teachers to avoid teaching the students who need them the most. Why would any teacher take on the severely learning disabled students, the poorer students from homes that have less enrichment and less support, the English as a 2nd Language students with parents that don’t speak English, etc.? These students often score poorly on the tests used to measure performance. So taking them would mean working harder and earning less.

If you pay teachers for satisfaction, you incent many behaviors which may not be the best for students. Students love “nice” teachers, who give little homework, don’t give detentions, etc. Most people like people who tell them what they want to hear. I know teachers who give easy work, don’t send home too much homework to make it inconvenient for parents, say nothing about the difficulties that a child is having in school. Many of these teachers are well liked. But are the students really getting what they need? I don’t think so.

Most teachers with high expectations, a lot of homework, follow up with parents when the student is missing things etc. are complained about by parents and students alike. They may be providing the best education, but they wouldn’t win any popularity contests.

And as for administrators earning high salaries—our assistant principals earn less than our senior teachers. And our principals earn less than many new MBAs. For this salary, they work all day, many evenings, most weekends and 12 months a year. They spend their days dealing with angry teachers, angry parents and many problems that have to be solved yesterday. Most significant decisions about curriculum, budget, and policy are dictated by the district staff. They don’t serve as gatekeepers to service because they like to—but because they are told to. As I see it, it is a lot of grief and alot of time for not a lot of pay. It is no wonder there is a growing shortage of school administrators in this country. You have to be crazy to do this job. Just my thoughts. Leah

I, too, am surprised at many of the responses.

In NY State, in order to get certified a teacher must have their Master’s degree within 5 years of getting their provisional certification. Then to get on the track of higher salaries, you have to complete 60 credits of graduate school — the equivalent of a second Master’s Degree. Then, after working about 20 years or so they may be at the highest salary which is on the average about $70,000 after a career of 30 years. Salary increases? In New York City they got 8% over three years during the 1980’s.

I’d like to know what kind of a job can you get with 2 Master’s Degrees that only pays at its very maximum about $70,000 ??

My husband is a teacher and I used to be a teacher. Every teacher I know has a second job. They teach summer school, work at Sears after school, tutor, etc. just to get added income.

They live in communities with people who have much more??? The electrician who is my neighbor makes well over $100,00 as does my plumber and our friend who is a contractor. Our community has a teaching hospital nearby and many people we know are doctors, nurses, etc.who all make more than my husband the teacher of 33 years.

I am thrilled that teacher pay, as low as it is, is NOT tied to student achievement or popularity. If such were the case, my son’s self-contained class teacher would be working at minimum pay because she does have to discipline many students and many students just aren’t achieving as she would wish. She is not popular with the parents of these children.

I hope this gives many a reality check. Teachers do not get the pay or respect commensurate with their education.

… But Socks, renewable contracts would depend on evaluations by … those lovely administrators. Some of mine have been great — others have held sped students in open contempt and basically felt that money spent on them would be better spent on people who might give something back to society. THe notion that that attitude made contributing to society a heck of a lot harder — … anyway, those administrators consciously like to keep the turnover happening in sped because they can pay new teachers less. Unfortunately, the need for a system that makes the weak stronger or weeds ‘em out applies to administration, too.

Well said, Rover! Teachers carry most of the responsibility, while have little or no authority when it comes to creating a workable learning environment. In schools with a lot of diversity and a wide range of parental incomes and education, it is not possible for teachers to be all things to all people.

There are many students growing up with little or no discipline, and these students bring their lack of self-control, their emotional problems, and their lack of being nurtured into the classroom every day. The teacher’s job is to teach, and to create an environment where students can learn. The teacher cannot “fix” everything for every child. When parents cannot or will not seek help for their children, do not become involved with the school, or deny that their children have some responsiblity to conform to school rules, there is no way the teacher can create a secure learning environment for the other students. To then punish a teacher for “failing” to teach in classroom over which he or she has little control is one way to be sure the best and brightest among them find other work. Is that what people want? I think critics need to think this one through. JJ