Question on IQ scores......

I don’t have an answer but I hope that someone does because I think the same thing has happened with my daughter. Her IQ score went from a 91 3 years ago to an 80 this year. What does it mean?

It’s very important to remember that the IQ test is a snapshot of your child taken on one day. Some kids respond *very* differently to different testers — sometimes on an emotional level, other times very subtle differences in how directions are given (such as how fast the tester talks). There are countless other variables, too. And it’s just one test… one angle of a kid’s ability to do certain kinds of things that require certain kinds of thinking (or at least we hope the kid figures out what kind of thinking; sometimes a kid’s score goes ‘way up because in between those tests they had to do something that made them solve that kind of problem in a better way than they’d tried to before).

Verbal IQ scores can drop if a kiddo has not been challenged to keep developing language skills. THis can happen pretty easily if a kid is behind in reading and not much writing is required. I”d also make sure both tests were the same version, since there might be some WISC-R’s still around and there are some differences between the -r and the -III.

Which subtests fell and rose? Sometimes a kid’s general score is lowered by one subtest s/he chokes on (like COding).
If the school is going to “Discount” that test score, what other information are they using in its place? Sure, it’s possible it’s not valid — but again, it’s a lot easier to perform below your ability than to perform above it! Do they have other scores that indicate that the kid has average abilities in those areas… or does she have the kind of visual-spatial “sense” that says she’s a natural there?

As a kid gets older, the questions do get harder. Besides that, bottom line is that if the kid can do the tasks at that level, it doens’t matter much how s/he learned to do them. The ability is there, whether the kid picked it up from doing the test or from something else. Four chances in ten years … sorry, *I* wouldn’t have gotten much better at those strange performance tests! Speaks highly of thekid’s problem-solving abilities!

Would explain this problem, I have a child with a higher performance IQ than a verbal IQ, she is ADD-Inattentive and also has a hearing impairment. One of the key’s to diagnosing ADD is the drop in processing speed and that was very apparent on my daughter’s IQ scores. What does the Neuropsychologist suggest and has she had speech and langauge tests?

Dear Pattim You say that the drop in processing speed was very apparent on your daughter’s IQ test. I’ve been trying to find out which subtests on WISC indicate a processing problem. Can you help? Thanks. Mandy

Hi, Tink.

I’d like to see the individual subtest scores too.

It could be that you are seeing what you already know: 1) that she has an l.d. which, presumably, affects reading; 2) that she is smart. Several of the performance subtests test innate abilities to conceptualize and reason. It is possible that her intellect is advancing ahead of her mechanical ability to handle language.

Another idea is just that. I mean, just an idea. Girls so often think it’s unattractive to be smart. My niece was in all the advanced placement classes in elementary school. Now, at 15, she is barely passing in high school. The last thing she would want to admit to is to having a brain. She hasn’t been tested, but I wonder whether the kind of active supression that teenage girls do to look attractive can have an effect on test performance.

Carol

How far apart has the testing been?

Your daughter’s performance on these tests suggsts that she is not growing or progressing in all of her abilities as we would like her to. IQ does stay fairly constant in theory but in reality as we grow older and the tests grow more complex, the tests may show deficits or weak areas that didn’t show up on earlier testing.

She has a great performance IQ that worthy of envy. She should be good in math and figuring things out. Your post doesn’t say what issues she’s having in school but based on her verbal IQ she may not be a strong reader or writer.

What would you like the school to do for her is even the bigger question. Whether or not they accept the test results in one question but the other is - what do you want from them? What accomodations or modifications would help her to be successful in school and what things can be done to remediate her weak areas?

You also mention freedom from distractibility issues. Is that something that shows up in other areas of her life - do you see her as having a short attention span - or is that something that just presented during the testing process?

Diagnosis of Nueropsych yesterday was ADD-inattentive and although the SLP identified some, what I think are severe audio processing deficiets she falls short of a diagnosis.On the test of Auditory-Perceptual Skills Upper
Level her scores are:
Auditory numbers memory forward 1st percentile
Auditory numbers memory reversed 23 %
Auditory sentence memory 25 %
Auditory word memory 6 %
Interpretation of directions 32 %
Auditory word discrimination 70 %
Auditory processing 90 %

When I pressed her about wether or not these type of scores could be indicative of CAPD or other language type deficit I got mumbling and vague answers. Any ideas on what these scores mean? There is no indication that she suggests SL services but it would seem that it is indicated on the language level. And if there is a possibility of CAPD, could the ADD have been misdiagnosed and confused with it? Or maybe we are dealing with both? Any ideas?

Oh, I forgot….in regards to the split in her verbal and performance IQ scores the Nueropsyche said The 37 point split puts her overall IQ in the 66th percentile and is non-meaningful. There is a broad range from the 5th % to 99.9% and although my daughters verbal comprehension cannot be easily explained that there is the potential for test /retest effect. To me this is a cop out. She has HUGE amounts of scatter in subtest in all test and shows consistant widening of deficits over 10 years. I don’t understand why this is being ignored.

Tink,

In first grade, the school suggested my son was ADD. The Conner’s tests were inconclusive and I didn’t pursue it. I had him tested for CAPD, which he has. We did Fast Forward that summer and the resource teacher and slt, who were the same people, said there was a marked improvement in his ability to pay attention.

Now I am still not sure my son doesn’t have some ADD but the approach I am taking is to try to remediate the CAPD and see what is left.

Pattim has spoke many times about the high co-morbidity of the two disorders.

Personally, I would have your daughter evaluated for CAPD by an audiologist.

Beth

I know what you mean about teenagers but don’t think it applies to this kid. She gives everything she has in testing and classroom per teacher and tester comments.

In answer to your questions, the testings were done approx. every 3years. I am not sure what I or my daughter want the school to do. The IEE was done to try to identify what is happening for her so we could make a game plan. As far as remediation is concerned I think the biggest help would be to bring up her reading level from 6th grade level to the highschool level where she is. But exactly how to do that gets confusing because now I have two reports three years apart, one that says she is dyslexic and one that says she isn’t and no indications on what programs or ways to remediate the issue. On the ADD front, it is my daughter who feels distracted, unable to concentrate and not on task and she told the tester so. I have noticed vague attentional issues but organizational issues are of a huge concern. There is nothing inher life that is organized from her bedroom to homework to getting ready for school in the morning and it has a huge impact on her life. From not being able to find her bookbag to lost homework to the total inability to put together a large project. Anyhow…..I am not sure where to go from here. Just got this ifo yesterday and am trying to digest it all but do plan to delve further into the auditory language issues as I am thinking that this may be a large piece of the puzzle. Any ideas?

I’m not familiar with all the details behind each of the subtests, but it’s interesting that she scores lowest on all the auditory memory ones? The amount of information that she can take in and process at one time is handicapping her. (which can also effect processing speed or vice versa).

There is a very strong relationship between good memory and attention processing deficits. You need to figure out WHY her attention is not good. For my daughter, intially not only was her memory poor(both visual and auditory) - in the handicapping levels, but she had very poor auditory descrimination. (which was all due to her CAPD) After some intensive therapies, her discrimination is in solid average range. Her auditory memory is not handicapping anymore, but still on the low side of average. Basically, she could not hear/discriminate between words.

There are many factors that can effect memory (and many different stages of memory). There are also many different factors that can effect attention and different stages of attention. I’m sure that we have not found all of the attention issues in my dd either.

Management strategies outlined in the Book ‘Central Auditory Processing Disorders - Mostly Management’, include Assistive Listening Devices/FM systems, Vocabulary building/semantics, auditory training, metacognitive training, rehearsal strategies etc. You need to really understand what is causing the base issue and map to the correct therapy.

Tink,

I started grad school this week so I will be out of the loop for awhile. All of the tests that require any amount of sustained attention of your daughter have low scores, things like forward and reverse numbers and retention of auditory sentences. She seems to be able to discriminate and process phonemes because those are her high scores. The SLP felt that she didn’t have CAPD because she didn’t meet the criteria, if she had CAPD she wouldn’t be able to discriminate and process phonemes as readily. I really don’t think that she has CAPD. The diagnosis from the Neuropsyche concurs what I suspect, ADD-Inattentive. What has appeared to you as a severe auditory processing problem is her ADD-Inattentive.

When a child is not paying attention and in their own little world they are missing out on all the vocabulary that surrounds them, they are literally in a fog of their own design. They can’t control when their mind wanders, they may want to focus but they just can’t and because of the inattention they fall further and further behind their peers in language, comprehension, self-esteem, pragmatics, etc. Because of these behaviors it explains why a Verbal IQ has dropped so low over the years. You can have her checked for CAPD by a competent audiologist just to be on the safe side..

There is an article on-line that I can re-post about ADD/langauge disorders and there is a great book I found the other day called Managing Attention and Learning Disorders by Elaine K. McEwan that you should read. I think you will understand more about what your daughter is going through. For years I thought my own problems and my daughter’s were due to CAPD but we both are ADD as well. We did everything to address the CAPD but never reached higher until we addressed the ADD. Now with meds my daughter is finally able to concentrate and focus. Don’t discount the findings of the Neuropsyche, I think she is right on the money.

I am not sure which subtests are added to decide what the processing speed is but I think they are the ones related to coding and several others on the PIQ because those are the ones that were highest on my daughters IQ tests. My own daughter’s processing speed in 2nd grade was 122 and by 5th grade is was in the low 80’s, when the ADD-specialist saw this continuous drop he concurred that she was ADD. As I have worked with kids who are ADD who have slow processing and reading skills inspite of knowing the phonemic code to reading, what they are doing is misreading, loosing their place, skipping words, endings, re-reading and decoding piece by piece. When they are on meds, they are able to focus and attend to the details, their reading accuracy and fluency are greatly increased along with their comprehension.

Hi Tink-

I think Patti is probably right- what you have- at least on these tests- is not auditory processing issues per say but memory capacity issues that are impacting how much gets in there to process. This is very symptomatic of ADD innattentive- and as I understand it- less suggestive of CAPD- especially as her processing scores are so high. What was her digit span score? Was it equally low? The fact that the effect has increased so dramatically over time suggests that to me also- the need for increased capacity is so much greater. If this were my child, I would check the ADD first- before I put a huge amount of time and money in other programs that may have limited effect.

Robin

Thanks for the imput!If you get a chance please repost the article and I am headed to the library today and I will check on the book. Don’t worry, I won’t discount the nueropsychs ADD diagnosis just wanted to understand the audio results better and what you say makes since. Thanks for the help and see you when you get back.

Thanks Robin, and yes her didget span scores were miserable. I agree with you and pattim and am going to move forward on the ADD-inattentive aspect of things.

FYI, the Freedom from Distractibility factor on the WISC-III does not measure distractibility. The WISC-III manual even states (page 182) that “the meaning of this factor andn its labeling have been topics of extended debate” and then lists 8 other alternative explanations for the FFD factor (from concentration, to short-term memory, to executive processes). Regardless of what it measures, research is clear that it does not measure freedom from distractibility. This has been known for at least 20 years. However, at a WISC-III seminar it was pointed out that the developers decided to continue to call this factor ‘Freedom from Distractibility’ for ‘continuity’ purposes with previous versions of the test. In other words, even though the test company knew the factor was misnamed, they kept the name for marketing reasons (Psychological Corporation also lists David Wechsler as the author of the WISC-IIII manuel even though he had been dead for about 9 years when it was written).

See:
Wielkiewicz, R. M. (1990). Interpreting low scores on the WISC-R third factor: It’s more than distractibility. Psychological Assessment: A Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 2, 91-97.

Thanks

I think you need some more testing. You need to know whether her distractibality comes from an ADD-like disorder or something else. Could be short-term memory problems or inability to grasp and understand a large number of words make her “get lost” instead of being able to follow the subject. Does she do better with teachers who speak slowly? Does she say that she can pay attention for a short time but then finds it harder to do as time goes on? Can she follow a long movie with full attention from beginning to end?

You may want to look in the LD in Depth section of this website for evaluations of processing problems to see what tests are given.

Carol