teachers' proficiency

In our state the teachers have to take a Praxis test, I do not know what level of ability that it actually measures. I DO know that there are a lot of questionable measures taken by would-be teachers to get through those college courses - most are not above paying others to write their Term Papers, do thier class projects for them, etc. It seems as if they are there merely to jump through the hoops to get the teaching certificate. Once in the classroom, then who knows how their students will fare?

I will add a bit to this discussion…

First of all Obi, you are absolutely correct in some of the methods of passing classes in college, although future teachers are not alone in this, some students from ALL majors will do this as well (think of that next time you go to the dentist, or hire and attourney or accountant, yes?).

What I find more disturbing is a trend that is rather singular to the teaching profession. I got my college degree (busines, a useless major actually) at a “teachers’ college”, in fact THE teachers’ college in my state. 25% of the graduates are education, and it is the only fully accredited college for education in my state. And what I saw was this - a large number of te graduates from the education program were “fall-backs”. By this I mean, when it became obvious to you that you were never gonna be able to pass 300 level chemistry, you fell back on becoming a science teacher. When you failed out of te pre-engineering courses, you became a math teacher. Ad infinitum (or should that be ad nauseum?)

So unlike the promotion that the college recruiters may do, all too often it is not the “best and brightest” but in reality many are second stringers.

But I will take exception with the idea that we need to increase teacher’s proficiency. I have found that the longer the string of letters (ie MS, PhD, etc.) you have behind a person’s name, the less likely that are to be effective in communicating all that knowledge to us commoners. And, if we raise the bar too high on qualifications, we will have to bump their salaries up a couple of notches BAMM! and then the taxes will have to also climb to compensate.

And in the end, teaching is not something you can learn from a book, like chemistry or trig. Teaching is an art, it is a melding of good communication skills with the ability to read people well, and these are things that cannot be taught. They are God given talents an individual has, and tho we can teach a person fancy buzz words and endless convoluted theories about educational psychology, we will never make anyone a good teacher if they are not already possessing these skills.

Seems to me, we might be better off lowering the bar a little, and allowing elementary ed teachers to have less book learnin’. Then we could get more of them into the classroom on the same budget, reduce the class size a bit to allow for more individual attention, and then perhaps those children needing personal 1:1 can get it.

The Praxis test for K-8 teachers is about equivalent to a high school exit exam - certainly no more. When I took it there were several people taking it for the second or third time - couldn’t pass the math. My guess is that they barely scraped through high school. But I agree with Dad. The best and the brightest
don’t make good teachers. The second stringers who know about failure are more likely to understand that some kids need things explained several different ways. It’s the same as baseball, the star players have so much natural talent, they needn’t think too much about technique. The second stringers need to try lots of different ways to achieve the same results. These guys can use this experience to teach others.

Unfortunately, it’s even worse for special kids. There are a few too many people who “Fell back” to education… and then “fell back” from regular ed because it was too hard, and went into special ed. ONe example (just one of many) was a teacher who couldn’t pass the basic college science class — on the third try, the teacher said she’d give him a passing grade if he’d promise never to teach science.

OF course, he was teaching the LD Science class. And he was, truly, totally frustrated and so were the kids. But he still took home his paycheck. They dind’t take home an education. Some of those kids could have made the transition to regular ed with the right teacher.

I think there’s a need for people who are out there working with the kids, doing the interaction, with all the people skills who don’t need to be advanced scholars, and there’s a need for people who will analytically figure out what the best ways to deliver instruction are, and work with the first people to deliver it. In teh case of sped, this needs to happen with each class or each kid even.

There are so many people who couldn’t get over a bar that would be raised to any standards, and they’re often in administration. So what I’ve seen when standards and requirements are raised, is that by the time they’re implemented, they’re 90% b.s. If you really want to, you can continue to grow & develop as a professional, but sometimes it’s in spite of “professional development.”

Then as far a special ed goes, there’s the nasty fact that in most settings you aren’t given the resources to do your job right. Salary doesn’t change that; if you’re in a setting where your students aren’t likely to succeed, you either come to believe it’s because they can’t so you keep shoveling ‘em through the system and having ‘em come out spam (or the stuff they sweep up off the floor), or you keep trying to do the best you can — but you have to mangle the truth on every single IEP when you say you’re meeting the kids needs this way, and for some of us that’s tough.

I did not encounter anyone in my undergraduate/graduate education who cheated or paid others to do their work for them. I resent your implication that teachers are a cheating, dishonest group. I would expect that there are about as many cheaters in teacher training programs as their are in Home Economics, Animal Husbandry or Business Administration.

There has always been those who believe that “those who can do and those who can’t, teach”. The students who go into teaching because of the money and having summers off do not last long. Starting salaries are around $30,000, and yes they only “officially” work 183 days, but there are tests to grade, conferences to schedule with parents who are never home to supervise their kids let alone meet with teachers, creating lesson plans, attending continuing education courses. I have never met a teacher who only worked 6.5 hours a day. Just working with 6.5 hours a day, 183 days a year, they only make $25 an hour. I know people who make more than that who never went to college. And no teacher can work only those hours and get anything done.

Yes there are those teachers who should never have gotten into that profession but they are few and far between. There is an expected teacher shortage in the next decade. Sit down and figure out how much that lawyer you paid $1000 for handling the closing on your house, but only spent a total of 3 hours dealing with you or your house, made……then think about who we need more, lawyers or teachers.

But this is just my opinion.

Reminds me of a commercial (for an insurance co) we have on my local radio station — about the town of Fairness…where the teacher drives a Ferrari, the librarian drives a Lamborghini, and the bank gives back cash when their profits are too high!
How can we work towards change in a society where there is very
little “fairness”? It IS disgusting that lawyers make about 5x
more than sped teachers — but “we” are responsible, as a group, for our society, and only “we”, as a group, can work towards change.

It is really hard for teachers on this board when we parents kvetch about bad teachers — trust me, the rotten teachers I have
run into do NOT spend their free time on the net trying to figure
out how to do their jobs better! But all the parents here would agree that the freedom to complain to others in the “same boat” helps us keep going…please, teachers on this board, DO KNOW that you are the “cream of the crop”, but there ARE some duds out there…and we truly value your contributions!

In my opinion, the teachers on this board ARE making a huge contribution to the changes that bring us closer to living in “Fairness”! But we NEED to vent about the rotten apples…

Ours is a Teaching College as well, the finest and oldest such institution in our state In our area, the Teaching program is often referred to as “Pre-Wed” , in other words the young ladies and gentlemen there are more interested in finding a mate than they are in actually getting a teaching certificate. . Not a flame, just my own personal observations.

I do not think that lowering standards for teaching will give us more or better teachers. I think that it will just give us more babysitters that we have already, i.e., people in classrooms who DO NOT have the skills or the training to do an effective job of teaching our next generations of students. Again, NOT A FLAME, just my own personal observations.

I think school districts should do a better job of training and supporting the teachers that they already have. I also think they would be able to retain more quality teachers in the special education field if the money currently used to thwart and stymie parents from getting FAPE for their children, instead were used to provide the type of education each of our children have a right to. What has happened to that great motto: ALL children can learn? ALL children will be educated in our schools to acheive their highest potential?

Obi Mom Kenobi, M.Ed.

I don’t know too many attorneys who work only an 8-hour day, most work 60+ hours each week, altho I do admit the actual hourly compensation is probably more than a teacher’s actual hourly compensation, but not always. Many attorneys do burn out because of so many hours and leave the profession, I believe this is also true of teachers. Many attorneys also do pro bono [no fee] work, including me. Is this also true of teachers?

But I did feel compelled to reply to one of your comments.

>>Sit down and figure out how much that lawyer you paid $1000 for handling the closing on your house, but only spent a total of 3 hours dealing with you or your house, made

For one, when I purchased my house, my real estate and escrow agents handled my closing, because an attorney is not required for this, altho perhaps in your state an attorney is required. And I paid my agent far less than $1000 for the closing.

But the point I do want to make, is that if in your opinion, your attorney mishandles your case, you can file a claim and/or lawsuit against your attorney and perhaps win. If you file a claim and/or lawsuit, your attorney will have to defend against it. This is why we have E/O policies [legal malpractice insurance, similar to automobile liability insurance]. E/O policy annual premiums are NOT cheap.

So altho I do admit that my juris doctor [JD] degree is arguably equivalent to the PhD possessed by some teachers altho not required [and we have no emergency certification either], my passing of the state Bar Examination is arguably equivalent to the Praxis or other test required of teachers, and other things, if your child’s teacher in your opinion does not perform his/her job adequately, your recourse is not to the teacher but to the school district.

If you believe your attorney does not perform his/her job adequately, that attorney has personal liability which may include negative information filed with the State Bar Association [which in many cases is public information], loss of reputation in the legal community [whether or not the claim against him/her was valid], even loss of license. But there is not similar personal liability for a teacher, because any personnel information is generally considered confidential, a teacher with any seniority and/or tenure cannot lose a license simply for being “inadequate” or failure to provide FAPE. But one bad case can equal personal financial ruin for an attorney, and even loss of that attorney’s ability to practice law. It takes much more than one child being denied FAPE to do this same thing for a teacher, and the teacher does not suffer personal financial responsibility beyond potential future employment.

An attorney purchases liability insurance, do teachers have to do this? You can factor this expense into the compensation figures you cite. An attorney can be on-call for clients 24 hours each day, depending on the type of law that attorney practices. Do teachers do this?

I am not saying teachers are not probably deserving of more pay and respect, but to equate a teacher with most attorneys I know, is a generalized stereotype that I personally disagree with. There are bad attorneys, and bad teachers. Bad attorneys generally fade quickly. Unfortunately, the bad teachers are very difficult to get rid of, primarily because of tenure and union contracts. There are also good attorneys and good teachers. But the good attorneys still buy liability policies, because noone is perfect, and the mentality in this country is to sue anyone who does not do what you want or get you the result that you want. Good teachers do not have that same concern, they are shielded from personal responsibility by their contracts and the district.

You have made good points. Of course the essential difference between the two is that teachers are essentially state (county, whatever) employees. They are civil servants. The same rules apply that apply to dealing with other civil servants.

Any teacher who joins a teacher’s association has liability insurance. That is part of the package.

I have to agree that teacher who are spending their time on this board helping parents or trying to get new ideas from other teachers have to be good teachers. I have gotten alot of support and great input here.

Teachers and attorneys make much more than I do but we all knew what we were in for when we decided on our careers.

We have to hold our school districts and special ed units accountable for our kids education or lack thereof. The teachers can only teach what the schools provide them for basic instructions. The districts also hold the wallet for special training and seminars.

I have to agree that teacher who are spending their time on this board helping parents or trying to get new ideas from other teachers have to be good teachers. I have gotten alot of support and great input here.

Teachers and attorneys make much more than I do but we all knew what we were in for when we decided on our careers.

We have to hold our school districts and special ed units accountable for our kids education or lack thereof. The teachers can only teach what the schools provide them for basic instructions. The districts also hold the wallet for special training and seminars.

There are people who disgrace their profession in every field. I have never personally paid that much for a closing but when my husband and I sold our house, I discovered that his attorney had charged him that much. It shocked my husband that I could handle the closing myself with no attorney when we bought our present home, though it was difficult to find a title company who was willing to handle a transaction where one party did not have an attorney. Our state does not require them, but they are so “recommended” by a disclosure that the real estate agents have to have buyers/sellers sign that the majority of people use them.

I have never personally met an attorney who does pro-bono work but I am sure they exist. Your profession just like that of teachers comes under scrutiny more often than others, and you, just like the teachers out there who are conscientious, gets the heat. Just like there are bad doctors, there are good doctors.

In reference to your questions about pro-bono, I have seen teachers tutoring students after hours without charging due to the fact that the teacher knew the child would not get tutoring otherwise.

I think lowering or raising the standards is not the issue as much as accountability. Accountability of the schools and the teachers. I definitely agree with the opinion expressed about the districts spending less trying to keep kids out of sped and more on education. Unfortunately the distrcits make it necessary to have attorney’s who specialize in sped. And also, an attorney who is on this BB trying to learn more about sped is not the type of person I was referring to. Do not take offense, this was an expression of an opinion in response to an expression of an opinion.

There are people who disgrace their profession in every field. I have never personally paid that much for a closing but when my husband and I sold our house, I discovered that his attorney had charged him that much. It shocked my husband that I could handle the closing myself with no attorney when we bought our present home, though it was difficult to find a title company who was willing to handle a transaction where one party did not have an attorney. Our state does not require them, but they are so “recommended” by a disclosure that the real estate agents have to have buyers/sellers sign that the majority of people use them.

I have never personally met an attorney who does pro-bono work but I am sure they exist. Your profession just like that of teachers comes under scrutiny more often than others, and you, just like the teachers out there who are conscientious, gets the heat. Just like there are bad doctors, there are good doctors.

In reference to your questions about pro-bono, I have seen teachers tutoring students after hours without charging due to the fact that the teacher knew the child would not get tutoring otherwise.

I think lowering or raising the standards is not the issue as much as accountability. Accountability of the schools and the teachers. I definitely agree with the opinion expressed about the districts spending less trying to keep kids out of sped and more on education. Unfortunately the distrcits make it necessary to have attorney’s who specialize in sped. And also, an attorney who is on this BB trying to learn more about sped is not the type of person I was referring to. Do not take offense, this was an expression of an opinion in response to an expression of an opinion.

Okay, some fair to poor teachers do get out of the profession and find something they’re happier doing. Once in a blue moon, a fair teacher gets under the wing of a good teacher and learns to do it right — I really, really wish teaching were less baptism in fire and there was more mentoring (or that teachers had to spend a couple of years lifeguarding — it’s how I learned to manage kids and figure out there is just amazing diversity in any given group of people).

MOre often a poor teacher learns to fake it well enough not to get fired (often getting more bitter and burned out with every year)… or better yet, takes the right classes and becomes an administrator. And no, there’s no recourse. Now, it’s a two-sided street — teaching is awfully subjective. But even when teachers are pretty obviously, measurably, and egregiously awful there’s … basically no recourse, no accountability. Standardized tests aren’t going to do it either.