High tech therapies. Has anyone tried these products?

BrainBuilder 3.0 might not be worthwhile after PACE. PACE would have taken cognitive skills in this area past the point of BB. However, it might be useful for maintaining and honing skills. It can become very boring, so I would keep it short on a daily basis — not more than 10 minutes.

There was a demo of Captain’s Log available online when I looked at it more than a year ago. It looked *extremely* boring and unattractive — something my daughter would (rightfully) protest doing.

The Listening Program might be worth doing. It is one of a class of related listening therapies — AIT (Berard), Tomatis, Samonas, and probably some others I can’t think of at the moment. If you haven’t done any of these, then TLP might be worthwhile. It is the mildest of the sound therapies which, unfortunately, also means it provides the mildest of improvements. It’s fairly easy to do at home, just requiring sit-down listening time of 20 minutes every day (if, unlike us, you can remember to do it consistently). Basically, TLP stimulates the auditory system by means of acoustically modified classical music. I have heard that European musicians sometimes use it to hone listening skills, especially for age-related hearing loss.

You might be interested in VisionAerobics (I think that’s the right name) — a CD Rom for the computer used by pilots to hone vision skills. It has an exercise that works on convergence, another that seems to work on peripheral vision (and requires consistent attention), etc. Website used to be http://www.visionaerobics.com.

We have been enjoying some success with spelling for the first time by using Avko’s Sequential Spelling. This takes only 10 minutes a day.

Do you mean his handwriting skills are poor? We’re using the Avko keyboarding program now (reinforces the spelling program) and plan on getting an AlphaSmart soon to get around that.

Don’t know about the other programs you mention. Will have to take a look at them….

Mary

Mary,

Thank you so much. You are always so knowledgeable about these programs. I was hoping you would have a chance to respond. I think I will just use BrainBuilder to help reinforce the PACE skills. My son never got past being able to remember 4 digits or letters. I am also going to continue practicing some of the PACE exercises once a week. Right now, my son is bit burned out on PACE though.

I now incorporate many of the techniques that we learned in PACE when working on his other homework. Just even turning on the metronome for some exercises really helps him stay more focused.

My son is still dealing with struggles with attention, dsygraphia, working memory, word retreival, vision tracking (skipping words), reading comprehension for abstract concepts.

Bummer that BrainBuilder and Captain’s Log look boring. Frankly, Captain’s Log is rather expensive, so I’m happy to slash one thing off my list of things to consider.

I will definately look up the VisionAerobics program you suggested. My son only seems to have trouble with saccadic eye movements which makes tracking and finding the next line difficult. He skips words and refuses to use his finger to help him.

My son has seen an audiologist who does AIT. I’d hate to waste my son’s time with The Listening Program if it is not as effective. I just can’t get a handle on what AIT or these sound therapies really do. What kinds of results do people see?

Should I invest in AIT or save that money and get trained in NeuroNet. I keep coming back to NeuroNet. I can’t remember if you have done NeuroNet or not. My son and I would have to fly to either Florida or Chicago for several days to get that program going. But, I understand the connection between motor coordination and language/cognitive skills. I first started looking at NN to help with word retrieval.

I have one friend who swears by AIT. And it is a quick fix kind of thing that could maybe even be done over the holiday break. I just don’t want to toss money at something I don’t really understand. The same audiologist convinced me to buy an expensive Easy Listener that was a bust in the classroom. My son was always bothered by the mild static caused by the rustling of wires.

I’m impressed by the way you and several other parents on this board have gotten yourselves certified in many of these programs. I’d like to use that approach more in the future. I especially hate driving all over town to get to therapies for my son. I have 2 little ones who need me too. Plus, I’d rather be driving to a soccer game, than to another therapy.

Thanks again for all your wisdom. I feel like I should be paying you a consultant’s fee everytime get a post from you. You really know how to help other parents on this board.

Take care,
Rosie

because whether or not it would do any good really depends on the nature of underlying auditory problems. AIT is good for certain problems, but only a qualified audiologist can determine if these specific problems exist. The best source of information I have found for AIT is Connor’s Corner. Check it out at http://www.ccnet.com/~njones/AIT.html. Her son is autistic, but her AIT diary and page on auditory disorders are very helpful.

Personally, because of the diversity of the problems, I’d be inclined to get the NeuroNet training. Even if you take care of vision problems and auditory problems separately, you still have the problem of developing visual-auditory integration. NeuroNet addresses so many issues on their most fundamental level that this would be the most attractive first step for me. Also, in my experience, often it is the therapy that is done every day (even if just for 10 or 20 minutes) at home over a long period of time that is most effective.

Mary

My advice is to stop trying to fix your child. Your child is who they are for a reason. Put your energy twards his strengths, not the weakness. If you spend to much time ,energy, and money trying to fix him you will loose the childs real true personality. How would you feel if someone was constantley trying to change who you were. How would you feel if someing was forcing you to learn to play golf and no matter what you did you could not play.But that golf teacher kept pushing , trying a new methord. If You had to go every day and practice golf when you knew you just could not play, how would you fell. You would eventually just give up, and mabie just give up in life . Because that teacher would not let you stop trying to learn golf.when you just did not get the game . This was my life.I knew that no matter how many time I practiced spelling, no matter how many times I tryed to remember my science for a test it would not matter. You cant make a brain do something that it can not do. Believe me I spent most of my school life hateing life because eryone always tryed to make my brain do things that I knew that it could not do. I excpeted me for me , the problem was nobody else did.

Greetings Pam,

I’m sorry you had such a difficult time in school - I’m sure it was a miserable time for you. I have a child with learning disabilities so I know what it’s like from a parent’s perspective. Rosie is like me, a very caring parent who wants to help her child reach his fullest potential.

My child’s life is easier and she is happier as a result of the progress she has made due to a variety therapies designed to address her learning problems. Did she like these therapies? Sometimes, but frequently not. Is she glad she did them? Yes, because she can see the progress she’s made and her improved quality of life. Did you participate in any specific therapies designed to help you with your learning problems or were you like so many children being forced to do something in which you were not given the proper TOOLS to accomplish? These therapies are tools - tools designed to facilitate learning. Without these tools, my daughter would still be saying “huh?” after everything that was said, she would still would be klutzy, she would still be reading at a 3rd grade level instead of an 11th grade level. Before these therapies, she was just as miserable and depressed as you indicate. She had spent years trying to make her brain do something “it couldn’t do” only because she wasn’t given the proper tools to work with. Using your golf analogy, you could say my daughter was trying to play the game using a banana for a club. No matter how many times she swung that banana, she could never hit the golf ball. Now that she has been given a golf club in the correct size, she’s hitting that ball more often than not. She may never become a Greg Norman player, but she’s finally able to play the game and have fun doing it.

Blessings, momo

I’m constantly working to improve myself.

Rosie,

I did some research into sound therapies and one audiologist I spoke to pretty much talked me out of AIT. She did both AIT and Somonas. She told me she got faster, better results, with fewer side effects with Somonas. She was certified in AIT and continued to do it with certain clients but it was not in general her program of choice.

Now I never did do Somonas (that particular therapist was pretty pricey and ended up doing Neuronet instead of OT where I could have done Somonas inexpensively). It is difficult to compare these sound therapies so I thought I’d pass that along.

Beth

You are right on momo MO, if we ignore the problems these children have, most won’t be able to achieve their full potential, and may become discouraged with life and give up. I have just read some terrible statistics, 50% of teenage suicides are teens that had a previously diagnosed LD (probably recieved no therapy or remediation as their is very little in my country), girls with LD have a baby within 3-5 years of finising highschool, etc.
Of course we have to balance the childs life and include lots of fun activities, love and incouragement, but the world these kids have been brought into requires that they be literate and able to learn quickly and efficiently. The days of unskilled, uneducated labor are quickly coming to an end. The employers who traditionally would hire unskilled labor (armed forces, auto industry, etc.) all now want people with univeristy education, not highschool dropouts.
Fortunatly, there has been a revolution in how to remediate dyslexia and other LD issues and our kids can be helped. I imagine when Pam was a girl there weren’t the options that are now on the market. Thankfully there has been so much research in the last 10 years.momo MO wrote:
>
> Greetings Pam,
>
> I’m sorry you had such a difficult time in school - I’m sure
> it was a miserable time for you. I have a child with
> learning disabilities so I know what it’s like from a
> parent’s perspective. Rosie is like me, a very caring parent
> who wants to help her child reach his fullest potential.
>
> My child’s life is easier and she is happier as a result of
> the progress she has made due to a variety therapies designed
> to address her learning problems. Did she like these
> therapies? Sometimes, but frequently not. Is she glad she
> did them? Yes, because she can see the progress she’s made
> and her improved quality of life. Did you participate in any
> specific therapies designed to help you with your learning
> problems or were you like so many children being forced to do
> something in which you were not given the proper TOOLS to
> accomplish? These therapies are tools - tools designed to
> facilitate learning. Without these tools, my daughter would
> still be saying “huh?” after everything that was said, she
> would still would be klutzy, she would still be reading at a
> 3rd grade level instead of an 11th grade level. Before these
> therapies, she was just as miserable and depressed as you
> indicate. She had spent years trying to make her brain do
> something “it couldn’t do” only because she wasn’t given the
> proper tools to work with. Using your golf analogy, you
> could say my daughter was trying to play the game using a
> banana for a club. No matter how many times she swung that
> banana, she could never hit the golf ball. Now that she has
> been given a golf club in the correct size, she’s hitting
> that ball more often than not. She may never become a Greg
> Norman player, but she’s finally able to play the game and
> have fun doing it.
>
> Blessings, momo
>
> I’m constantly working to improve myself.

You are right on momo MO, if we ignore the problems these children have, most won’t be able to achieve their full potential, and may become discouraged with life and give up. I have just read some terrible statistics, 50% of teenage suicides are teens that had a previously diagnosed LD (probably recieved no therapy or remediation as their is very little in my country), girls with LD have a baby within 3-5 years of finising highschool, etc.
Of course we have to balance the childs life and include lots of fun activities, love and incouragement, but the world these kids have been brought into requires that they be literate and able to learn quickly and efficiently. The days of unskilled, uneducated labor are quickly coming to an end. The employers who traditionally would hire unskilled labor (armed forces, auto industry, etc.) all now want people with univeristy education, not highschool dropouts.
Fortunatly, there has been a revolution in how to remediate dyslexia and other LD issues and our kids can be helped. I imagine when Pam was a girl there weren’t the options that are now on the market. Thankfully there has been so much research in the last 10 years.momo MO wrote:
>
> Greetings Pam,
>
> I’m sorry you had such a difficult time in school - I’m sure
> it was a miserable time for you. I have a child with
> learning disabilities so I know what it’s like from a
> parent’s perspective. Rosie is like me, a very caring parent
> who wants to help her child reach his fullest potential.
>
> My child’s life is easier and she is happier as a result of
> the progress she has made due to a variety therapies designed
> to address her learning problems. Did she like these
> therapies? Sometimes, but frequently not. Is she glad she
> did them? Yes, because she can see the progress she’s made
> and her improved quality of life. Did you participate in any
> specific therapies designed to help you with your learning
> problems or were you like so many children being forced to do
> something in which you were not given the proper TOOLS to
> accomplish? These therapies are tools - tools designed to
> facilitate learning. Without these tools, my daughter would
> still be saying “huh?” after everything that was said, she
> would still would be klutzy, she would still be reading at a
> 3rd grade level instead of an 11th grade level. Before these
> therapies, she was just as miserable and depressed as you
> indicate. She had spent years trying to make her brain do
> something “it couldn’t do” only because she wasn’t given the
> proper tools to work with. Using your golf analogy, you
> could say my daughter was trying to play the game using a
> banana for a club. No matter how many times she swung that
> banana, she could never hit the golf ball. Now that she has
> been given a golf club in the correct size, she’s hitting
> that ball more often than not. She may never become a Greg
> Norman player, but she’s finally able to play the game and
> have fun doing it.
>
> Blessings, momo
>
> I’m constantly working to improve myself.

Would Fastforward be of use to your son, it can be done at home, from what I understand, you can be come certified for about $90 and do the training over the internet? It doesn’t require a lot of skill from the provider, basically you have to know how to send an email and open files, which given the fact you can use the internet, you are qualified in my books. It is almost a two hour commitment per day, so you may want to give your son a bit of a break before you start. Games are a lot mor fun and the graphics are much better than Brainbuilder, but then, the price is a lot higher ($800 vs $50). My daughter has finished Fastforward, is in the middle of Lindamood LIPS and has just started Brainbuilder. And yes, her reading has improved substantially, I will get the results of her latest reading test later this week.

My son has done both FastForward and StepForward in the past. Both helped him.. What do you think of BrainBuilder so far?

Thanks again. Where did you get your NeuroNet training? Did you go to Florida to the developer? or another provider? Also how long did you spend with the NeuroNet program (per day & duration in months)? Did your child like doing the NeuroNet activities? I gather you think this program was very worthwhile. In terms of results and changes, how do you think it compares to PACE?

I’ve been thinking about traveling to Chicago for NeuroNet training so that I could combine the trip with a visit with friends. I wonder how much the program is customized for each student and if I should go to the original developer or not.

I was glad to hear you confirm my gut instincts.

Rosie

What did you think of NeuroNet? Did it help your child?

Thanks for the info.

Rosie

Thanks Pam for responding. I can certainly appreciate your point of view. I can understand that my post may appear like I am a desparate mom trying to fix or change my child with any program on the market. There are a lot of choices for parents, some good, and lots of snake oil solutions too. This bulletin board is a good sounding board for researching products and ideas from other parents who’ve been there.

I can assure you I absolutely ADORE my son JUST the way that he is. I totally respect and am in awe of the precious and unique characteristics and quirks of his personality and abilities. When, he was much younger, doctors and teachers and other professionals painted a very discouraging picture of what they felt he could accomplish in life. He had a severe language delay which impacted even his most basic abilities to communicate and connect with others. Fortunately for our son, my husband and I listened and learned, but we have always maintained a very positive and optimistic approach to our son’s challenges.

My college degree was in instructional design, so I understood that there were many types of learning styles and techniques for reaching people who learn differently. I believe that EVERYONE can learn and SUCCEED if they are taught using methods that match their natural abilities. I’ve often considered home schooling our son so that his instruction could be customized unqiuely to him. Right now, he is in such a wonderful social environment at his current school, so, I combine home-schooling and regular school. I work with him in the areas that school can not meet his needs, and he enjoys and learns and participates in the world of school.

In my own family growing up, my younger sister had a very severe stutter and dyslexia. She was teased all that way into high school. Back in those days, learning disabilities were not recognized like they are now. She got all the way up to 5th grade before her teachers realized she could not read. Repeating 5th grade was not great for her. But with my parent’s help, she survived by switching elementary schools. To this day, she still considers herself stupid and a failure in school. I saw the pain and frustration of my sister. Things are different these days. Children with learning problems are identified early and lots of help is available. Sure, kids can get tagged with too many labels; parents can push kids too hard; teachers can feel overwhelmed. It is challenge to balance it all.

Our son may have some learning problems that can not be helped or treated. But, we need to keep our eyes open to what is available. Many of the therapies that we have done have really helped our son to communicate and connect better with friends and family. He gains confidence in himself as he improves his skills. Those same therapies have also made it possible for him to participate in other activities like soccer, summer camps, and make friends. It makes him so happy. We are happy for him.

What is most important in life, is CONNECTING with others. We’ve accomplished nothing if he makes great grades, but doesn’t know how to communicate with friends or seek out interests of his own. We try to keep our perspective about this.

I’m sure many parents who have children with disabilities experience the roller coaster up and down… letting our quest to help our child overshadow the daily joys and realities. The key is to enjoy the PRESENT. My son will only be 10 once. I strive to be content and appreciative of all that we have RIGHT NOW.

At the same time, I look for guidance from GOD and others who share our family’s experience. I’m sure I will make my share of mistakes. But, if I put “loving my child” as my first priority, I pray I will not make too many. You are right that it is wrong to constantly try to FIX our child or change him into someone he is not. But, it is also wrong to deny a child help when he/she is struggling.

I praise God everyday for the JOY and LOVE that all 3 of my children have brought to our lives. I appreciate your post so much because it gives me an opportunity to remind myself and others here that must not let our worries for our sweet kids get us down.

Take Care,
Rosie

Rosie,

I live in Florida and my son goes to see the developer of the program. The developer does the training in both Chicago and Ft. Lauderdale. My son came and demonstrated procedures and walking on stilts in Ft. Lauderdale training recently.

I think I have told you before that it has been an excellent program for us because of its focus on the vestibular system. My son could not balance enough to jump on a pogo stick or walk on stilts before doing this program. I have seen him learn to learn.

The procedures take about 1/2 a day and are oriented to each child. We have done FFW, NN, and PACE and he def. has liked NN the best. The movement is much more incremental than PACE and he has felt much more successful. Plus, it doesn’t take as long. Most of the time we have spent about 20 minutes on the procedures.

Do you have a science background? Most of the people she trains are OTs, audiologists, speech and language therapists. Honestly, even after nine months, she often talks over me. I have a social science background.

I think we have received more benefit from NN than from PACE but we may have done PACE prematurely. I think there are still unresolved sensory problems that really limited the effectiveness of PACE. He simply couldn’t get past certain points with PACE, regardless of strategy or repetition.

Beth

We’ve done both and I have not regretted either one. We are into 1mo. of PACE now, so I can now compare. I think BB and Pace address different aspects of memory. BB does not address working memory and PACE only works on increasing your auditory ‘span’ up to 5 ‘things’. BB works on as many as you can accomplish - the developers want to see you at 9+ as goal. I was actually disappointed in that PACE really only has one exercise (MAS) that addresses the auditory working memory and digit span.

BB is not real exciting - you have to be creative on making it a game, keeping it positive and providing an incentive or rewards system to keep up intensity(we used the spare change jar and she got certain ‘cents’ for passing levels - she also learned how to count change at a young age). We did it for 9mo. and saw alot of improvement in that time period - looking back, it was one of the most beneficial things we have done.

Note that there are a number of ‘free’ activities you can do to improve auditory memory and sequencing. Treasure hunts, short stories to retell, directions to act out etc. You start at a level they can do and then work toward adding more items in the list. When we totally burnt out on BB, we started doing it the old fashion manual way using index cards with the digits written on them- gave a new level of intensity to the program.

I’m also a big believer in sound therapy. I prefer Tomatis over TLP. Our DD was ‘different’ after Tomatis. Learning became easier for her - programs where she had been stuck before, she progressed. TLP is a good program to use as a ‘booster’ - in-between the other sound programs. TLP does not provide bone conduction or do alot of right ear dominance work. TLP is more generic - where Tomatis can be customized for the child.

We did a booster of Tomatis before doing PACE. We haven’t gotten REAL stuck on any level yet, we’re progressing pretty fast.

Thanks for the details about NeuroNet. I think we had the same problem with PACE. There were certain activities, especially related to memory that our son could never get to the next level. I happy to hear that NeuroNet was relatively enjoyable. Also, it is good to hear the the developer trains in both places. I didn’t know that. Guess it is time to give her a call.

It’s very interesting and encouraging to hear your experiences with BB and Tomatis. I think you will like PACE. So you did BB for 9 months. How long each day?

My son struggled a lot with MAS past 4 items, and MSD & MSL past 3 items. We found that he did better when we set the metronome to a faster pace. He had less time to forget and more focus. I ended up having to make modified MSD and MSL cards that used some color coding. I tried to teach him the “picture patterns” such as numbers organized to look like a “T” to help. It helped a little. But, we never were consistently successful with 4 items. DMC was also VERY hard for him. 3 shapes was all he could handle. Those 4 exercises were the ones that really frustrated him

I hoping that BB can help by giving him extra practice and repetition on the computer. Taking Mom out the equation might help for this skill-building. Then we can go back and try to pass the PACE levels again.

I’m also hoping NeuroNet will help too since it boasts targeting working memory and retreival. PACE really helped me to pinpoint the strengths and weaknesses in my son’s skills.

Gotta go. Little ones are running around naked fresh out the tub. Time to read books and cuddle. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Rosie

On BB - we did 15min, 2x a day. Once before school and once after - 5 days per week.

I’m sort of wondering if we will peak at those levels too. We’re only a month into it, so are just now hitting the level 8’s and 9s on those. They are harder for her.

What I am finding on MAS, is a problem with her sound/symbol and naming issues. My dd has a real hard time remembering names of things - it’s like they just escape her - knows them some of the time and then others, just can’t retrieve the word. Somehow, sound/symbol of letters is hitting that same void place in her brain? On MAS, if we do numbers vs. the names and letters, she does great. Had the same problem with remembering the presidents.

We saw some noticeable improvements when we first started PACE - she seemed to be making less errors when reading and has slowed down, reading each word better. Many words seem to be more automatic for her. I’m told that about 8 weeks into program is when you start seeing the most improvements.

Did you also so MTC? We just started it and incorporating into PACE program.

It is a little to early to comment on BrainBuilders as we have only been doing it for about 3 days. I think it could work well, but we will have to see if she can sustain interest in it. There is only one graphic for all six games and not much to motivate you to keep at it. Fastforword was very repeditive, but at least there were elements in it to make you want to compete and better yourself. I think I will have to create a reward system to motivate her.

Dea,

I was interested in your comment about Brainbuilder and PACE working on different aspects of memory. PACE tries to build working memory so you can remember while doing something else, as I understand it. What does digit span tranlate into in terms of benefits (other than easily remembering phone numbers!!)? We have Brainbuilder but have never done it as consistently as you have.

Beth

We saw improvements with PACE after about 1 month, then more around the end of the program at 12 weeks. My son just seemed to be acting so much more maturely. He was finishing more of his work at school, which had been a dramatic change which everyone has appreciated. And, he doesn’t seem to forget instructions that we give him as often. Before, I could tell him to go find his shoes and moments later he would be totally blank on what I had requested. He will still doddle and work slowly with things around the house, but he really seems to be remembering what we tell him to do now. He has even mentioned that he doesn’t forget things so much anymore.

We have not done MTC. My son works with an Academic Language Therapist at school 3x/week who is using Alphabetics Phonics. It is the same program which is used by Scottish Rite. It is a very comprehensive program. Although, his progress has been very slow with this program. We’ve been do it for almost 1 1/2 years. I sometime wonder if it is a bit too technical and detailed in the phonics for him.

Surprisingly, my son did great with the presidents. In fact, he can do them both forwards and backwards even if he has not reviewed then in weeks. Visual mnemoics are a real breakthrough technique for him. I haven’t spent much time trying to incorporate this technique in to studying for his school work. But, I am amazed by how well he can remember the pictures for list he actually creates on paper.

Now, he was not as successful when trying to make pictures with his imagination. When he would get so frustrated with MSD and MSL for trying 4 items, I would remind him that there are 43 presidents and he could do that. He was never convinced.

It’s my understanding from the NACD that digit span measures the amount of information you can take in a process at one time, with out having to chunk it.

I was also told that Brainbuilder does NOT improve your working memory. That’s why when we were on program we did alot of other sequencing type activities to improve the working memory. The number of pieces of information you can take into your working memory typically lags behind your digit span. However, if you increase your digit span, it makes increasing your working memory easier.

I know I’ve shared this before, but Bob Doman really preaches that increasing your digit span is one of the best things you can do to increase your overall function. (for anyone - LD or not LD).

re: MVL - I know she was seeing the pictures no problem, but she just can’t remember names at all (like ‘Watch’ington, was ‘look’ ton.) She now gets it, but it took a month to get thru them. However, since we started the lists where you have to use your own imagination, she is cruising thru that.

I’ll let you know how MTC turns out.

Make sure you keep him motivated and a positive environment. If they get too frustrated, he may shut down and just not try. Sounds like you are doing a great job and you’re a good mom!

Dea,

Thanks.

I think we’re going to do some sound therapy through our neuronet provider. Your quick results with PACE inspired me. We got some good improvements in processing speed and visual processing (now slightly above age) with PACE but that’s about it. We finally have given up on the AP work. It is like hitting your head against the wall. I can see that he can handle multisyllable words much better so there has been some payoff but we just couldn’t get through the ADD and AST exercises. We may return to them next summer.

Now we just have to get rid of my ds negative ear pressure—a persistant problem—before we can start.

Beth