writing problems

You might want to take her in for a developmental vision evaluation. This eval includes about 20 tests of visual function not included in a regular eye exam. The directionality problems, reversals, poor eye-hand coordination, all point toward developmental vision delays. You can find out more at http://www.visiontherapy.org, http://www.vision3d.com, and http://www.children-special-needs.org. I don’t know if Hong Kong is included, but http://www.covd.org contains a search engine to locate developmental optometrists.

You also might want to try working with her using Audiblox (http://www.audiblox2000.com). Audiblox is a home-based cognitive skills training program that has a strong visual component and includes exercises to develop directionality. It costs about $80 to get started — for book, video, and starter kit of manipulatives — and 1/2-hour to 1-hour per day of one-on-one time doing the exercises.

Mary

You need to look up the International Dyslexia Assoc. web site and review the symptoms of dyslexia. Dyslexia is a whole lot more than just reversing numbers or letters. There are many different variations. Some kids have some while others don’t, however they are all considered dyslexic. From what you have written in your post, she sounds dyslexic to me. Of course I’m not an expert - only a parent of a dyslexic. Do some research on it and the Intern’l Dyslexia Assoc can even do a screening for you. See if there is a branch in your area. Good luck.

I am dyslexic,and have two children who are dysgraphic( which is the writing form of dyslexia)
At the kindergarten level it is developmentally appropriate for a child to reverse letters while writing.
The rule of thumb,which I don’t always agree with is by age 9 they should be not doing this anymore.

One thing that also struck me about your post is the signs of giftedness. Both of my children are also gifted. Being gifted brings a whole lot of problems also. Gifted kids often apply so much pressure on themselves to be perfect at everything they do,that if they have difficulty in one area,it can throw them,such as you describe your duaghter doing.
It might be that your daughter is being hard on herself for not being able to immediately write,like the other areas that come so much easier for her.

Handwriting without tears is a really good handwriting program you might look into. Working with her at home,might illiciate better handwriting,and elliviate her anxiety in performing in school. Just a thought.
If she continues to have difficulty I would suggest an evaluation,but I don’t know that I would suggest an evaluation in kindergarten. Most written language testing done to diagnose a disability or ones that really give you a good idea of where the problem is,isn’t given to children at age 5. The Visual Motor Intergration test can be given and this looks at motor skills. And as suggested above checking her vision might be of benefit,but until 2nd grade,most written language testing doesn’t tell you much.

Dear Linda,

Many thanks for sharing your experience with me. How old are your kids? How did they cope with the dysgraphia and the giftedness? How are they doing now? What did you have to go through as well as they? (Now, when I look at myself, I think I do have a mild form of dyslexia as I spell poorly. I used to think that it is simply because English is not my native tongue. Then, I always forget how to write in my native tongue, Chinese, which is even harder as one has to practically remember every single stroke. But I have survived this weakness anyway.)

It is quite ironic that my dd who seems to be quite gifted with languages, yet shows signs of being dyslexic. (She is fluently bilingual in English and Chinese and speaks in three tongues since she speaks two types of Chinese dialects.) She is very hard on herself and is very critical of herself and others, and I know that is partly the source of her problem. It is apparent that what is in her head is much more than she is capable of expressing on paper, and for a couple of months she was very upset (to the point that we had to literally drag her to school as she used to throw a fit in front of the school door) about the fact that she could not spell eventhough such was not required. It took us a while to explain to her that not many children could spell at her age.

Please forgive my ignorance, is “handwriting without tears” a software or sort of program that I can get information on the internet? I have been wondering if I should work with her at home about her writing whereas her teacher suggested I should leave her alone and she will get better in time. I think the issue is if she has dysgraphia or just is developing her writing skill as a 5 year old whereas her mind a couple years ahead. I dread giving her more works to do after a long hard day at school.

Helan

Dear Mary,

Many thanks for your valuable information. We had a visual evaluation as well as an eye exam for Zoe when she was at 44 months. She was diagnosed as slightly delayed in eye-hand coordination as well as left-right reversal. The exam lasted about 20 minutes and I am not sure how comprehensive it was> I am wondering if I should have her checked again. (It is quite expensive and the insurance does not pay for it.) We were suggested then to let her have some treatments. As she was quite young at the time and the treatment was very expensive, we decided to wait and instead started her on the piano. (Her piano playing is OK, but hates to play because to her it is also difficult. But I can see her eye-hand coordination and tracking have imrpoved as a result. She used to pick up a measure and read from right to left / backward. She does that sometimes when she reads and when I ask her why, she said she liked it that way.) Actually, I think her condition has improved, but perhaps not enough for her to cope with school works to the extent she thinks she should be able to (at least now she can copy simple words, though always losing her places and with great difficulty; but in before, she was not even able to formulate a “v” by imitation.) Verbally, she can tell stories and create her own eleborate stories in both English and Chinese (in two different dialects).

As you suggested, (also after reading people’s recommendation), I have ordered the audiblox so as to work with her during the Christmas break and hope the program will help her get better to the point that her self-esteem does not suffer. I wonder if dysgraphia is visual-developmentally related or not.

Many thanks indeed.

Helan

Helan,
I assuming your asking me the questions above:-) If not,I suppose I will give you my two cents anyway.

My oldest is very hard on himself. He has to be perfect at everything he does,except keeping his room clean! His dysgraphic symptoms did get better over time,but he uses a Laptop in class,was the best thing to happen to him,aside form a very small private school specificly for gifted/LD kids.

My youngest is not as hard on him self,but he also doesn’t struggle as much in general sunbjects. He is however 11 years old and STILL writes totally illegibly. He has had OT,IM,FFW,LMB,and hand writing without tears.(which has a website,and is reasonable priced,and only has to be done 15 minutes per day)It’s a writing program and it is from a book. The reason I like this program,and believe me have done them all,is becuase it is all about getting the written word down legibly,not about all these rules about where you start,whether you go up or down or whatever. My youngest is also in this private school,his teacher can read some of his handwriting,which is amazing in itself,but he also uses a laptop.

It has been hard on them,but they have the fortune of having a mom who KNOWS how ity feels to write illegibly and spell poorly.Sounds like maybe your DD has the same good fortune:-) Nothing like knowing just how one feels.

Dear Socks,

Many thanks for your response. Yes, the note is written for you in particular, but I forgot about that it is a discussion list, meaning that I have to put your name down. Sorry.

When were your children diagnosed as dysgraphia? Do / did they have spelling problems? How were they when they were the age of my dd, 5? (Too much to ask since they have passed that age for quite a while.) Is having spelling problem a sign of learning disability? (I ask as I have always feeling shameful of my spelling ability, even though I have a Ph. D. and am now a college professor.) Zoe does not have to spell yet, but she surely has problems with writing Chinese words and it takes her many many many practices to learn to write a word and forgets how to do it the next day, which looks strange to me given that she has a very good memory for other things.

For us in Hong Kong, a school for gifted/ld kids is absolutely out of the question as there is not even adequate support for ld kids. Zoe is already lucky that she is not in a main-stream Anglo-Chinese school which requires a lot of writing in both Chinese and English. Not that children in that system learn more (as they all end up hating school), but they all write better as young kids and for those with ld, going to that sort of school is a nightmare since Hong Kong kids usually have several hours of homeworks at the age of 6, something like 14 different kinds of homeworks everyday. My husband and I were in the US for 10 years, and Zoe was born in the US which entitled her to study at the British School in Hong Kong which adopts a no-homework policy until 3rd grade, age 8. But because she works so slowly or procrastinates so much that she is sometimes not able to finish her works at school and has to do them at home. What concerns me most is her attitude and the anxiety she has toward writing works at school. That’s why I think I should do something about it now than later, and I am all on my own to provide whatever support she needs. (I know, many, including my husband think that I am being a pushy mom.)

I’ll start Zoe on Audiblox over the Christmas break and see if it works. To help her enjoy writing, I am also taking time a few times of a week typing down what she wants to write for her in large fonts with guided lines below each sentence for her to copy what is typed. In her school, she is taught free writing just on a piece of blank paper, and since her sense of space is very weak, her letters are pretty much illegible and everywhere on the page, from bead size to hand size. The guided-lines seem to make writing easier for her.

Cheers,

Helan

You have gotten some good advice but I have to echo Socks when she said that much of your daughter’s behavior is developmentally appropriate for a five year old- despite her clear gifts in other areas. Are her teachers concerned? They have a different perspective than we do as parents because they see so many children. It may be that because your daughter is so talented in so many areas her weaker areas- which could be perfectly normal- stand out much more dramatically for you. Your description in your first post really did not sound like LD to me- it sounded like a five year old:)

By the way- thank you for the fascinating glimpse into the school system- I was riveted! It is so different from the U.S.

Robin

Helan,
Okay let me see,to answer all your questions. believe me it was years ago and just yesterday all at the same time:-)

My boys were diagnosed dysgraphic at ages 9 and 10. It was a very frustrated time for me,because I knew. The experts didn’t. Robin,the above poster,helped me VERY much to get the right tests done and the right type of evals done.She IS a school psychologist. Believe me when I say she knows what she is talking about,when it comes to educational evaluations:-)

Again,the only reason I knew they had dyslexic type disability is because I am ONE! I knew because it was an absolutely like looking in a mirror for me. Took me many years to convince the school system,and they had evals prior at younger ages that were of no help what so ever. Even though I pushed to have them evaluated,it didn’t help them or me to have done it. The STILL were not diagnosed until 9 and 10 years of age.

About the spelling, ironicly my children didn’t start consistently spelling correctly until they had their laptops. Once they used this device it seemed that spelling phoneticly didn’t happen as much. Their spelling improved dramticly. About your personal feeling on spelling. I have to ask,were you berated in school for your spelling? Do you also put alot of pressure on yourself to be perfect? Me too!I am neuroticly worried about misspelling words. I use spell check,and the dictionary often. For me the computer in the work place was the best thing to happen to me also! I write letters to people right off the computer. People think I want to be the super professional,in reality it keeps me from writing something that looks terrible. Your a professor,your inability to perfectly spell everything didn’t hurt you did it?
Think about that for a moment,putting pressure on yourself,and making yourself feel badly,was either instilled in you by a teacher,or your own personaility type.
Your daughter is doing the same thing possibly. I was talking about this very same thing with my husband the other night. We were discussing whether to keep pushing my youngest in OT in an attempt at helping him write legibly,or should we be spending the money on more assistive technology. He related the story of how he remediated his handwriting by getting in trouble and having to write 200 times he wouldn’t do,whatever got him in trouble! He was saying,it helped him,becuase he hade to practice. He immediately said,but my writing was not like,Joey’s(my youngest). I went on to say I remember writing my name over and over and over again,just for fun in my own room,probably neurotic bothered by my handwriting,when I was young.

Again,there are things you can do with your daughter to help her with writing without it being like homework. We had a night once a week were no one could talk. We would write notes to each other. I did scavenger hunts were they had to find the clues,which took the to another clue,until eventually they found the treasure. This was to help them learn to read. Or at least see that the written word was a code that needed to be broken.( they had trouble at first learning to read too) I had signs on every object in my living room! Plant,Television,couch,tables! Eventually they learned to read and read way above grade level. The writing legibly still elludes them. It pretty much elludes me also. I am a nurse,specializing in pediatric orthopedics,I suppose my writing disability didn’t hurt me too much either. Being the type of person I am,it amazes me when someone write something and there is a misspelled word! It bothers me much more than it bothers them!

I can not use spell check when I post on these boards!! I had to get over feeling bad about mispelling or forgetting a letter now and again. So forgive my prior errors:-)

20 minutes is not enough for a full developmental vision evaluation. I would not take her back to the same optometrist.

See what happens with the Audiblox. That may be enough for her, especially if it’s visual processing problems. If Audiblos is not enough, then you can think about finding another developmental optometrist. Audiblox usually takes about 6 weeks before you begin to see gains. One of the things it does is help develop directionality (left/right, up/down) and sequential processing skills. Your daughter clearly does not have a problem with simultaneous processing skills, which are necessary for higher-order thinking. Dyslexics often have good simultaneous processing skills but need help to develop reasonable sequential processing skills.

I would also recommend Handwriting Without Tears, but maybe during the summer, when it’s not added on top of school and homework. The website is http://www.hwtears.com. You can email the developer for advice.

My 11yo daughter is dysgraphic. She can write legibly, thanks in large part to Handwriting Without Tears, but she will never be able to write with sufficient fluency to keep up in school. That’s why I’ve started her on a keyboarding program (from http://www.avko.org). I have heard from another mother that keyboarding over a period years helped her dysgraphic son learn to spell.

From what I have read, dysgraphia that is not due to fine motor problems (diagnosed by an occupational therapist) does not seem to respond readily to any kind of intervention or remediation. That’s why these children are often better off keyboarding from an early age.

Incidentally, Audiblox will probably help her with the piano (sequential processing and directionality skills).

Mary

Hi Helan,

Your observations are good ones BUT I would suggest that you might consider slowing down. I know this is hard when you are worried. I’m speaking as a parent of a severely dysgraphic 11yr old and as an early childhood special needs teacher.

Your child is 5 years old and it is developementally appropriate (the observations you have listed) to see this given your childs age. I have taught many children who have demonstrated just what you have described and are doing fine in the later grades. They just were on a different timetable from some of their peers. Sometimes this observation lingers and that is when you need to respond, your child is young in years.

Dysgraphia is not just handwriting, it is also the formulation of language. Do a search for Regina Richards on the internet. She has done a lot of work on dysgraphia and you might find this helpful, a 5 year old cannot have diagnosis of dysgraphia and I would worry if someone gave you this diagnosis at this early age. Visual intergration, sensory integration, visual motor…, sure-if your really concerned have you thought about a sensory integration eval (sip) You also said your child was gifted, has your child had IQ testing which demonstrates this, again she very young. I would be cautious about the audioblox, there is not much research to support it, as well as similiar programs.

You wondered what you might do at home? One thing I would rec. is to just try and get your child joining you in fun activities that she wants to participate in. If you turn your child off, you will make it even harder to get them to do any handwriting. Make letters in sand, make them with playdough, with paint, with markers, etc.- I think you get it. Make grocery lists, write notes, make lists, keep it functional and model writing so she see you writing too. If you do a search here on the internet there are a lot of great sites in early childhood which will give you age appropriate activities.

If would also introduce your child to the keyboard, you can make observations there too. Once familiar with the keyboard (and I assuming your child can rec. the letters of alphabet) does a keyboard help? Any age appropriate software program is a good choice. One I can think of would be, Edmarks Stanely Sticker Stories to start, check it out on their website, kids love it and most write and write when using it.

I wish you luck, hang in there.
Michael

Dear Mary,

Thanks for your information. Since I am new to LD issues, hope you don’t mind me ask what eactly sequential and simultaneous processing skills are?

I also think keyboarding does help with spelling. I have always been a very poor speller. I think my spelling has improved significantly after I began to write directly onto the computer. Now, I only have problems with irregular words like sequential, etc. When I have to write on paper, I do hesitate a lot.

I look forward to Audiblox and will work on her handwriting (if it still doesn’t get better) in the summer.

Helan

Dear Robin,

Hong Kong’s school system is a mess. Students produced here are only good at taking exams, and perhaps some basic skills. Though everyone and every family put a lot of emphasis on academic achievement, most students end up weak in both English and Chinese as well as in intellectual and critical thinking. There are a lot of talks about reinventing the system and some measures have introduced to the public school system to encourage teachers and schools to reduce student workload. As quite some parents (especially the middle-class ones) are unhappy about public schools, private schools (called international schools here) are in great demand. I am told, the waiting list for the school system that my daughter is attending is over one thousand.

Helan

Dear Socks,

My inability to spell is a secret part of me. I always did poorly in dictation and composition in both Chinese and English (though I write quite well). My poor spelling had my grade pulled down quite a bit. Instead of As, I get Cs. I was criticised as a sloppy student and I did believe that I was sloppy. I remember being made to write February 100 times, but still could not spell it correctly.

Had it not been for the word processor, I probably would have failed graduate school. The invention of spell check really saves my life. Knowing that most people don’t have spelling problems, especially those that I make contacts with, even English is not my mother tongue, I worry about mis-spelling all the time, to the point that I’ll just avoid words that I cannot spell. If I have to write a note, I’ll type it onto the computer first to avoid miss spelling. Despite all these efforts, I do still make quite some silly mistakes.

Does this hurt my job? Yes, and No. I am also very poor at names and I have to work hard to remember any names, I suppose the same issue with spelling. (I fail Biology at high school as I just could not cope with the many names and their spellings.) But spelling is something I learn to cope with, i.e. use words I can spell, and re-read one’s own writing at least a few times before turning it in, and have names / titles of books typed out for my students so they don’t ask me how to spell them on the spot, etc. On the other hand, I am blessed with other strengths, i.e. originality and creativity, which means I come up with interesting research and article ideas twice as fast as some my colleagues. So, even I have to struggle with spelling and re-read my own writing several times, I produce research output at about the same speed as my colleagues. Then, I am in a position that I can pay someone to take care of my “sloppiness” as I know quite well where my worthiness lies. But had I been in a different profession, i.e. as a secretary, I would be fired right away. I really had a very hard time in high school (since my intellectual ability was quite advance at a young age, so I had to put up with boring subject contents and poor grades!) Thank god that I didn’t drop out.

I hope my dd’s spelling and writing ability will catch up with her intellectual ability soon if she is not ld. Even if she might not be l.d., it must be hard having the mind of a 7 year old, but with the motor skills of a 4 or 5 year old. She cannot quite catch a ball, button her clothes, and hates sports and ball games. I am not sure if I want to teach her how to type since I would like her to be away from the computer as much as she could — she is addicted to the computer and could play for hours.

All the feedbacks I get are very helpful, and it feels good that I can at least do something to help her get better and feel better. I do believe making a l.d. diagnosis only at 3rd grade is too late as by the time, the child has already missed a lot and has developed such a negative impression about school, learning, and itself. It is true that kids develop according to their own schedule. But if their developmental delays or problems are not addressed early on, the consequencies mean much more time and effort spent later. In my opinion, kids should be screened at first grade for potential l.d. and should receive help right away. I know I sound a bit extreme. But had I known that my poor spelling is not in-born sloppiness, I would have sought help earlier and I probably would have a much happier six years of high school.

Helan

We are so lucky in the United States, even with all the problems we have in our school systems and we don’t often don’t realize it. I cannot imagine living in a society where an education for everyone was not an entitlement and where the only alternatives for parents were expensive private schools. As frustrating as public education is in the U.S., I would rather be here- regardless of the number of international surveys people do about schooling elsewhere.

Robin

What a wonderful discussion this has turned into. I agree with 1st grade screening. By then the demands definitely increase.

I feel like we must be related:-) Of course by culture, I am Russian. I know the feeling of picking other words! I start out typing and realize I have no idea how to spell the word,so I choose an alternate :-)

Let me ask this. If you are/were LD,found out early,recieved early intervention,and STILL could not spell,would you still say you would of had a happier 6 years of High School?

You wrote Februaury( hope this is right!) 200 times and still can’t spell it. Hmm,ya think writing it 500 times would of done it? Maybe,maybe not. Personally I recieved early intervention. I was diagnosed in Kindergarten,spend most of elementary and middle in special ed classes. All in the name of reading and spelling,and writing. can a Spell?? NO . Can I read? Yes,I can,I did finally learn to read. I could decode by 2nd by couldn’t comprehend until 7th or so.Can I write? On a keyboard..

Hmmm,don’t know Robin but if Hong Kong wasn’t there I would swear we were talking about good old USA.

Dear Socks,

Regarding early diagnosis — I suppose there are pros and cons. From the perspective of helping the l.d. child, early intervention (not sure the spelling) is essential. But then, many parents would hate the child being labelled (or perhaps wrongly) l.d. so early on. Besides, it is hard to face the reality that one’s child is not ‘normal’. But for my own child, I would rather work with her now than later.

Regarding myself, I am quite happy to know (even now) that my poor spelling is perhaps a result of l.d., not because I am lazy or stupid. (Sometimes, I think I am losing my mind because I just suddenly forget how to spell some very simple words or get some words confused — like yesterday, I wrote a letter to somebody in which I meant to write permanent, but put down prominent instead, and naturally the spell check did not catch it. Thank god that the use of “prominent” is not totally out of context in that letter. Otherwise, I would have made a fool of myself!) In before, I would feel bad for hours, but I think I am at ease with myself. But whether I would have been happier at high school — I don’t know — since growing up involved many other issues — not getting the grade one’s mind deserves, I suppose, is not such a big deal.

Helan

but you live in that warm place that has such incredible bureaucracy;) Life is a bit simpler up here where it is cold!

But seriously- you as a parent have the right to argue for your kids in our system. In other countries, where the laws are different there is no one to listen. Our system obviously doesn’t work well all the time, but we are miles ahead of most other places. I am always interested to read about how poorly the US does on those international comparisons- compared to countries where the LD population barely goes to school much less takes normed assessment that compare them to the rest of the world- and wonder how come- if our education system stinks so badly- we can consistantly take the leadership role we do in so many areas. No system works well all the time and thank God for the squeaky wheels that hold the system accountable- but my guess is that we treat many more children fairly than not and certainly more fairly than they would be treated in many other places.

Nah- I am still grateful.

Robin

True. Very True. Don’t buy the fear of Labels rhetoric personally. I know some people do. Labels are all over the place. The thing I worry about is what negativity is imposed on my children over the label. Due to their teachers ignorance over what their disability is.

All I am trying to say is, having a disability and to diagnosis the disability doesn’t garauntee remediation that successfully helps a person spell. Sometimes all the label gives, is I have a disability that prevents me from Spelling correctly,soooo what! Being comfy in your shoes,THIS is all it’s about.

Peace,Sister.

May God Bless you. Merry Christmas:-)