gifted with problems

It sounds as though your daughter has signs of a non-verbal learning disability or Aspergers syndrome. Try www.nldontheweb.org, or www.nldline.com for more information (don’t get too discouraged, though, some of the “scholarly” information can be quite negative, something that I think stems mostly from the fact that it is a relatively “new” disorder that isn’t fully categorized yet).

What made me think of those disorders is her problems with social interaction (which may also be a sign of CAPD), problems with reading comprehension, and problems with spatial skills.

She also sounds like she’s really anxious, especially when she becomes confused (totally understandable).

Hope that helps. I am by no means an expert, but am a person who suffers from a very mild form of NLD (and see a lot of myself in your daughter when I was younger, especially the meltdowns).

Can you tell me what it is like? I have the hardest time
trying to understand my daughter. In helping her I only
confuse her more. Also I read somewhere nld children
could express themselves very well. My daughter gets
very mixed up. She has problems with putting her ideas in order.
I am having her tested next month. I asked them to
look for add/hd nld, and dyslexia. I have suspected nld
most of all. Thankyou for your insight… Kelly

In my school we have several students who are gifted and are experiencing difficulties with their learning or social interactions. It always causes me some grief that some people respond with ” They are gifted so they should be able to cope” or “How can they be gifted? See they cannot do these things that these ordinary kids can do”

In my experience these gifted kids with difficulties walk a very bumpy path. Their frustration and anxiety levels are high because they feel that they have so much to give and they are not living up to their own expectations.

They needs heaps of support and should not be ignored. I posted a question on the general bulletin board a few days ago asking if anyone knew of a similiar online forum to this that might deal with issues with the G&T kids. So far I have had no response. Can anybody help?????????

helen

but I don’t know if it hosts a forum.

What I would suggest is joining the gifted-ld email list, which is quite active. Someone there will know about online bulletin boards for gifted-ld. The email list is free.

To subscribe to gt-special: send e-mail to [email protected]
with the command SUBSCRIBE GT-SPECIAL in the body

Mary

Kelly,

Some of the symptoms you describe are mentioned in the following article at the following site.

Spatial Relations and Learning

Carol Stockdale & Carol Possin, Ph.D.

http://www.blarg.net/~building/spneeds_arkspatial.html

Helen

How old is she?

Robin

She is 7.5. My biggest concern is her spatial ablities lags far
behind her other ablities. Her confusion in inferences while reading,
to the point of an emotional fit. Everytime she reads novels.
Reading factual type books she is on a 5th grade level. But books
with hidden meanings, like reading behide the lines,comeing to your
own conclusion or idea. Cause her great problems even on the
2nd grade level. I think it is because she see’s so black and white.
To her if she can come up with 3 or 4 different ideas from these
stories, then which one is correct? Everything is Right or Wrong.
Grey areas confuse her. With her giftedness she must know,
but with these problems Spatial,Concrete thinking,and problems
explaining herself (she get’s stuck and can only tell you her
problem one way) the frustration mounts.

Also I would like to ask Tyger if there is a nld email group online
or a board? Thanks Kelly

COULD be an nonverbal LD or even Asperger’s syndrome. Did she have a WISC? You would probably see some problems in the performance IQ subtests, for starters.

NLD children are usually socially savvy (if I understand this well), they can manipulate social situations. Aspergers children are NOT socially savvy. This is one of the discriminators of autism spectrum disorders, weak social skills and pragmatics.

Excuse my getting on this too much. Aspergers children are usually very literal, and many are very bright. I would suggest you type “Asperger’s Syndrome” into your favorite search engine and start reading. There are atleast two really good Asperger’s websites. One has a message board. You will get an idea of whether or not this fits your child. Aspergers, like most neurological differences, is diagnosed primarly through behavioral observation/checklists. Our school psych. now has an ASpergers diagnostic instrument of some kind.

I thought they were said to be niave socially? What do you
mean by savvy? A good talker?

Yes I did but I don’t think the results are congruent with nlvd.
from what I have read. Her two high on verbel side were Arth. and
Vocab. Low Comprehension. On the performace side. Picture
Completion and Block Design were her lows. Her VIQ I was under the impression this is not the main way to test for
this disorder. Also she was tested last spring 6.7. I might get a
better insight if she is retested at 8. So I have been told.
She reads 5th grade except for novels,her spelling is unbelievable,
She just seems to know without studying also I watch her while
she is spelling and she does not pull it from a mental picture in her
mind. Writing is above avg. But it is very time consuming and laborious.
I don’t know if it is her perfectionism or she has problems. She holds
her pencil up agianst her ring finger not the middle. And she presses
way to hard. It leaves a blister on her finger when she writes.
Spatial math is a big problem. She has no concept of time. When you
tell her you can help her in about an hour. 3min later she there asking
you if the hour has passed. It really seems to have no meaning to her.
Very unorganized.
Something that I do find strange….When I help her with her homework
and she is listening she can’t sit still. Up on her legs, down on her bottem,
leaning to the left, jumps from chair, sits back down, then when see gets
it. Stops to start to write. She does this when we are haveing a girl talk
(heart to heart) she moves around the room bouncing on furniture while
she talks. Well I could go on and on . She has always been a mystery
to me and my husband. So different from my other children. Both are
gifted and my 3.5 has more commen sence than she does at 7.5.
Thanks for the ears…..Kelly

I think the problem with categorisation of any disorder is that each is a spectrum, with much variation (not unlike the general population). I think that NLD kids may be very *verbal* (and hence may seem to be very good at expressing themselves), but IMHO there are a lot of language difficulties that can arise from being NLD.

First of all, if you have trouble reading certain non-verbal social cues, it is easy to get confused and lost in a conversation. Secondly, I know that a lot of my meltdowns were caused by not being able to express my own feelings in words: I feel and then have to step back and label the feeling, almost cognitively. It would take an explosion for me to realize and express the frustration and confusion I was feeling.

I never had as much of a problem with literal thought as most, but that also would lead to confusion and frustration, especially when dealing with a sarcastic comment and/or teacher.

Secondly, organizing thoughts, written expression, etc. Difficulties in those areas are probably related to executive dysfunction: inability to plan, etc., something that’s often “missing” in a variety of cognitive and neuropsychiatric syndromes. Sequencing can be an issue (first, next, last) as can concept formation, all of which can lead to difficuties organizing thoughts coherently.

For Executive Function information:
http://www.tourettesyndrome.net/ef.htm

As for forums/discussion groups:
www.nldontheweb.org has one, though lately the postings have tapered down; they have a lot of people who are knowledgeable both about Aspergers and NLD and how the 2 are related. You have to email the webmaster of the forum to get activated, but it’s really easy to do.
www.nldline.com also has a forum, and some nice people, but not much traffic.

Good luck!

-Tyger

NVLD also involves social deficits. I copied this from the first article on NVLD under LD in depth on this website. It has a lot of information.

One of the most debilitating practical features of the NVLD syndrome is the extent of social
impairments. Because much of social communication is nonverbal, involving “body language,”
facial expressions, and tone of voice, individuals with NVLD are at a significant disadvantage
due to their impairments in visual processing and visual-spatial perception. They tend to miss
important cues in social interaction and almost always fail to appreciate nuances in behavior
and the subtle cues they may convey. Their difficulties with understanding affective
intonation further impair their ability to benefit from verbal feedback. These weaknesses lead
to significant deficits in social perception.

Thank you this really does sound like my daughter.
Kelly

VIQ < PIQ doesn’t necessarily rule out NLD. According to Byron Rourke:

“Often, Verbal IQ for persons with NLD is “pulled down” by poor performances on the Comprehension and Arithmetic subtests (see, for example, Question 10). This is seen especially in older children and adolescents. In these cases, estimates of Verbal IQ based on, for example, an amalgam of the Information, Similarities and Vocabulary subtests would yield a much higher Verbal IQ and, in consequence, a much larger discrepancy between Verbal IQ and Performance IQ.

Finally, in a recent study (Pelletier, Ahmad, & Rourke, in preparation), involving 89 carefully diagnosed/classified 9- to 15-year-old children with NLD, we found the following: 41% of the children with NLD exhibited VIQ>PIQ by 10 points or more; 75% exhibited 2 or 3 of their highest scores on the Verbal scale on the Information, Similarities, or Vocabulary subtests; and, 75% exhibited 2 or 3 of their lowest scores on the Performance scale on the Block Design, Object Assembly, or Coding subtests. School Psychologists and others who are involved in setting criteria for classification of NLD might wish to take particular note of these findings.”

This is from: http://www.nldontheweb.org/Byron_Rourke_QA11.htm

The nldonline.com bb has a recent posting on a listserve starting for parents with kids who are nld and gifted. This fits my daughter but I haven’t checked it out yet.

NLD kids are in fact not socially savvy at all, because they miss the social cues. Big problemsw with pragmatics they miss tone of voice, body language etc. Nonverbals are 2/3 of how we humans communicate, so NLD kids can have a lot of trouble here. They also focus on all the details and miss the “big picture” — so have problems too with inferences, slang, etc. (all of these are right brain functions, which are where the deficits are for NLD) The Good News is that they can learn a lot of very specific social skills and learn when to apply them with some success. My daughter did lots of work with her speech therapist on pragmatics and now can use hundreds of slang expressions appropriately — because she was taught them all one by one.

Kelly — I agree with other posts that your child sounds like NLD. Check out websites suggested, read right on by the negativity in some of the research. There is LOTS we can and are doing for our NLD kids.

Tyger - thank you so much for this post. I especially appreciate your ability to look back and describe why meltdowns occurred as a child — you have really “named” what still happens for my 11 year old — something we have all been aware of for a long time, but you articulated is very clearly! Thanks.

Kelly - my daughter was really helped in this regard (reading comprehension) by the LIndamood-Bell Visualising and Verbalizing program. We did it over time with a speech therapist who is trained in the method, as opposed to intensively at a L-B center. This was also much cheaper for us. It’s known that NLD kids have weak visualization, and the theory is that visualizing the whole (the gestalt) is essential to reading comprehension. We do it even though we’re not aware of it. The V-V program for reading comprehension teaches visualization word by word, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph etc. Also helps a lot with sequencing issues.

By the way, at least a few years ago, the L-B folks in California that I talked to had never heard of NLD per se. I expect they are a little more up to speed now — NLD is much more widely heard of and understood than even 3 years ago.

Hope that helps.

Kelly - sounds like she could also benefit from an OT evaluation to look at motor skills issues (they come with NLD). She may be moving a lot to keep herself alert, and good OTs can help with some of this. Also consider the ADD or ADHD that lots of our NLD kids also have.

I have a couple of thoughts. NLD may certainly be a reasonable thought based on most of what you have shared but I would not make up my mind without a lot more information. Some of your concerns- like inferential thinking- are actually developmentally innappropriate for a 7-8 year old. Their brains- no matter how bright they are or how well they decode are not wired that way and won’t be for a few years. this is perhaps why you are not hearing “problems’ from school. Relative to her peers- and I am referring to peers in her current program- she probably does look fine. So that would worry me less than some of the other stuff. I AM going to second the recommendation for the OT evaluation- it sounds as if you have some significant sensory integration issues here and an OT eval can help to pinpoint these more specifically. That is where the bouncing around and the heavy pencil pressure may be coming from- it is part of how she is controlling sensory input I bet. I also think that ultimately you may need to have a neuropsychological evaluation done to answer the questions you have. It is a cadillac sort of eval with a more medical/neurological sort of focus than a psychologist can give. This should address all the concerns you have articulated.

Robin

Barbara,
The moving around is something that might be associated with
nlvd? And can you explain to me alittle more about moving to
stay alert? I will be trying the new web also for nld and gifted.
thanks

While you’re at it, you might also pay a visit to “http://www.nldline.com”. It has some great information, too.

I wish to second what many of the others said and mention that it sounds like NLD to me, as well. I have NLD, too.

Kathy G.

Kelly wrote:
>
> Barbara,
> The moving around is something that might be associated with
> nlvd? And can you explain to me alittle more about moving to
> stay alert? I will be trying the new web also for nld and
> gifted.
> thanks

I’m not sure that’s always, or even often true. Everything I’ve read talks about the social skills problems NLD kids have. Our NLD parent’s group is rife with stories about the social problems with these kids. It is true, from what I’ve read, that Asperger’s kids have even more trouble in this area, but it’s one of the hallmarks of NLD kids too.

My son has milder social problems than some of the NLD kids I know, but he is EXTREMELY gullible, and vulnerable to other children’s “tricks”.

Karen

Besides the bulletin boards Tyger has mentioned, our local (eastern MA) NLD parents group has a mailing list. While we are a local group in terms of meetings, we have a number of parent on the listserv from other areas just because we can all bounce ideas off each other as necessary. If you are interested, you can join via our web site at:

nldsupport.org

Like the NLDontheweb BB, the list manager needs to give you access, but it’s just a formality to keep companies from spamming the list. She will usually have you signed up within 24 hours.

Karen

I suspect that early IQ tests don’t always show the split you see later with NLD kids… I’ve talked to a number of parents who have had the same experience we did. When my son was cored in kindergarten, he had a split of only 11 points. By the time we decided to have a private neuropsych done between 3rd and 4th grade because he was so stressed out over school, his split had widened to 22 points. (the other signs of NLD had always been there, but they were not recognised by the school people, and we hadn’t even heard of it!)

My understanding is that while a VIQ/PIQ split is suggestive of NLD, it is not, by itself, diagnostic. And there are kids that are NLD that don’t have a split for one reason or another. We were told by the neuropsychologist that the problem with bright NLD kids is that they often develop maladaptive coping strategies that diguise their weaknesses, especially in the early grades, but they do it at expense of a huge waste of emotional energy. (which leads to melt-down, etc.)

As soon as my son was on an appropriate IEP, many of his “behavior problems” (argumentative, night terrors, perseverative behaviors, and NASTY to his younger brother) disappeared like someone had thrown a light switch.

Karen

It can also be a sign of anxiety though. My son can seem extremely “hyperactive” when he’s stressed. When the pressure is off, however, he stops doing these things. The two psychologists that we’ve consulted feel quite sure that this is anxious behavior rather than “real” ADHD (he originally had a dx of ADHD, which is also pretty common for NLD kids)

The same thing is true in terms of attention… if he’s nervous or stressed (or if he doesn’t understand something) he may look inattentive. But if he’s calm and relaxed, he can be very focused.

Karen

I’ll second that 100%. Until we we had a full neuropsych done, we were shooting in the dark trying to make things work for my son. No matter what the problem turns out to be, a neuropsych eval helps you pinpoint not only any glitches in a child’s learning, but their specific strengths as well. And IMO it’s at least as important to figure out how they learn best as it is to identify their weaknesses.

Karen

Karen How much does it cost to do this type of testing.
Night Terrors are a big problem with my daughter and
she is afraid of everything.

A year and a half ago, we paid $1400 for a full Neuropsychological Eval from a person who is extremely highly regarded in this area, and has the reputation for writing a very detailed report with specific interventions. We then paid about $300 more for her to come to two team meetings first to explain about NLD, and then to help write the IEP.

I am sure that we got a better, more comprehensive IEP than we would have gotten without her. She was able to be very firm and specific about what his needs were, but at the same time was very aware of how public school systems work, and what was reasonable to expect them to do.

I even liked what she said to my son when we first went in for testing. She said, “I can’t promise that school will always be fun. But I can promise that we can find ways to make it easier for you.”

And I have to say, she did what she promised. IMO, it was the best money we ever spent.

Karen

I read this in an article that delineated the differencesbetween NLD and Aspergers. The last time I had an NLD child on my caseload, I had a real smooth talker who could con almost anybody out of anything. He may have been an extreme case (his verbal IQ was average and his nonverbal IQ was 25 points lower), but when I read that article to which I refer I thought of him and of the several Aspergers’ students I have had. A world of difference in the social arena.

One of the reasons I really like Mel Levine’s _Educational Care_ book is that he focuses on the behaviors and how to work with ‘em.
“NLD” is a fairly new term but to look at its meaning as a phrase — nonverbal learning disability — it covers a wide range, and not necessarily on a linear spectrum. Think of all the different variations of LDs — some kids wiht dyslexia have real social problems, others are very socially sophisticated. I think NLD’s have similar patterns —some kids will have very specific and sometimes severe issues, others will have more general problems working with thinking in the nonverbal areas.
Non-verbal learning disabilities means the disability is not in working with the verbal part (but even that’s not always clear-cut). If a kiddo has real trouble in the visual-spatial areas, that’s a non-verbal problem but it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with social skills. Other folks have no trouble with great and profound verbal wisdom but can’t understand how important tone of voice and all the nonverbal communcation skills are (or may have lots of trouble interpreting peoples’ feelings).
I think it’s interesting that kids can be very “verbal” — but have trouble with specific kinds of verbal comprehension, almost because they apply ‘verbal’ rules too rigorously. Some of these folks are the gullible ones, or the ones that take things very literally; folkss can also be brilliant verbally in a very scattered way, but struggle mightily with organizing those ideas.
And just to complicate things, the when and where of the effect this has on school and life is so variable. The right kinds of verbal skills can get a person by academically just about forever.

Robin, I’m headed the that direction of getting this evaluation. And I
had wondered if it was age appropriate to infer while reading.
Her gifted class does no reading. But in her regular class she is in
an advanced reading group. Which means they do third grade level
reading no fourth. I buy her fourth and fifth level books at home to
read together. Which she comprehends very well if it is not in novel
form or doesn’t have alot of dialoge in it.
Now I would like to tell you about her last night’s homework. From
her regular 2nd grade class. It was a short story. With nothing but inference’s in it. The questions were all related to these inference’s. The story was very difficult for me to fiqure out. Who was speaking?( Maybe we have the same
disorder?) It was about a girl who wanted to move something but couldn’t.
She asked two people to help her but they couldn’t. She started
crying and the two people she asked decided to help her. Working together
they got the job done. (even this is an inferece on my part)
They moved the object together. The 6 questions it ask had to
do with only inference’s. What did they move? The story did not say.
Who was the first person she asked? Who was the second person she asked?
Again the story does not say. How else might the little girl moved the box?
And so on……Why if It not age inappropreite would this teacher be pushing this level of homework on these children? If my daughter is gifted and can’t get it. How can she justify given such work to the avg. 2nd grader. This is the always the norm in her class. 2nd grade is 7-8 year olds. I really would
like to know if this is too much for this age group. I have had problems
with her teacher before and she is very strict. The first week of school
on the first day of homework my daughter was punished for not
folding her spelling homework paper the right way. The teacher gave
oral instructions and my daughter became confused. It cause her alot
of anxiety. I met with her and she informed me that homework was
punishable for behavior and my daughter should have paid attention.
I told she became confused. And my husband and I would never punish
for confusion. I’m very interested in know if you work in the school
system. Thanks Kelly

You will want to check out an OT site, with info on sensory integration (I’m not a good source of links on that, but a search will pull up some sites). The fidgeting is not an NLD issue per se, but I’ve learned a bit about how my kid can and cannot regulate her whole system from her years of OT. Look for a little pamphlet called “How Does Your Engine Run: The Alert System for…..” (can’t remember whole title). Fidgeting could also be a piece of ADD or ADHD. Sorry I’m not more specific, but this should get you somewhere.

Well, without actually reading the story- though that was a good summary:), this really sounds like a relatively uncomplicated inference level- it actually looks more like the use of context clues. I would be interested in asking the teacher what sort of preparation she did with the students to be ready to use evidence from the story to answer questions, so that I could use those strategies and explanations at home. I would also ask the teacher what happens when they do this sort of work in class- and maybe ask to see some work samples of my daughter’s work so I sould get a sense ofwhat her performance is in class as compared to at home. I wouldn’t be confrontive at all- just looking for information. After all, they are also telling you she is doing okay- yes? It would be good to know what okay means in this situation. I think that this is a resolvable issue with or without testing- but there needs to be some communication.

Robin

Just wanted to thank all of you for your insight and knowledge.
It has been most helpful. She will be tested in Jan. I’ll be in touch,
after to let you know results. Thank you Kelly