Anyone up for some test scores?

I’ll take a stab at some of this. the higher verbal IQ, by 31 points, is a red flag for possible nonverbal learning disability (there are websites on this). It helps to have the subtest scores for subtest scatter is very informative.

OK, so with the high verbal score, etc. your child has good command of language, he comprehends language really well when he hears and reads. GOOD.

I don’t know what tests were used for “cognitive.” There are two kinds of processing we often refer to in LD, simultaneous and successive (sequential). The latter is frequently a huge problem in classic LD, evidently not so for your child (are you sure that 99 isn’t a standard score, not a percentile?). So, he should be able, at least cognitively, to read across things, to sound out words, etc. Simultaneous is pretty much what it says.

Now, not being a psych. I am wondering how you can score almost off the charts in simultaneous processing and sucessive processing and have a first percentile processing speed from the WISC (subtest scores are good). Not being up to speed on the tasks that were asked on the assessments makes it challenging.

Also, the attention score is low, but I really don’t know what this means on that test. Is it attention to detail, is it attention to task????

Word reading (basic reading) is lowish. I would expect better scores here based on the sequential and successive processing scores. Was there a test of phonological awareness or processing administered? Now, knowing the new WIAT III, I am not entirely surprised the reading comp. is low. It is administered in blocks by the child’s grade level and we are getting some really different scores this year, scores I question.

Ah, you did give his sound awareness score, 7.3!!! OK, I think more testing is indicated. I cannot tell you why he cannot read words, obviously he comprehends. Slow processing speed can certainly effect reading, but with other some processing scores high, what they heck have we got?

I think you need to ask for more tests. Do post the Woodcock JOhnson scores. Consider getting the Woodcock Johnson Cognitive tests given, the Wisconsin Card Sort (executive function), subtests from the NEPSY, a complete phonological processing test that also includes rapid naming. And, try to post some more subtest scores from WISC.

Math reasoning is usually weak in youngsters with low(er) WISC performance IQ scores. What was “block design,” a good indicator of math thinking. What was arithmetic on the verbal portion?

Thanks in advance for your time. He’s a mystery, my son. That’s why I’m looking for more insight! The whole reason we undertook this evaluation was his poor reading and some concern about his attention. The data indicates he should be able to read better than he does, right?

Here are the subtest on the WISC-III
Information 14
similarities 15
arithmetic 11
vocab. 16
comprehension 9
digit span 15 * supplemental, not incl in full scale IQ
picture completion 9
coding 1
picture arrangement 9
block design 13
object assembly 8
symbol search 6 * supplemental
mazes 8 * suppl.

The cognitive test was called the Cognitive Assessment System. (CAS) The printout I have with the subtest scores is hard to figure out. There seems to be subtest scores and then an Area score. I can post them if you are familiar with the format. Let me just tell you this much;
Planning subtests were comprised of : matching numbers, planned codes, planned connections — 10% percentile
Simultaneous subtests : nonverbal matrix, verbal-spatial relations, figure memory — 99% percentile
Attention : expressive attention, number detection, receptive attention - 12%
successive : word series, sentence repetition, sentence questions — 97 percentile.

I have just loads of woodcock-johnson test results, are there specific pieces of I should post?

I’ll take a stab at some of this. the higher verbal IQ, by 31 points, is a red flag for possible nonverbal learning disability (there are websites on this).

WHAT ARE THE NAMES OF THOSE WEBSITES?

click on LD In Depth at top of web page and the clicck on Nonverbal

also go to www.nldonline.com

Helen

Also try www.NLDontheWeb.org and www.NLDline.com. There are forums in Delphi, and groups in Yahoo.

Does this type of discrepancy define NVLD - or is it just an indicator? While I am familiar with NVLD, noone who has seen my son has mentioned it. Also, I thought those kids usually read early, but didn’t always have great comprehension. He on the other hand, is a late/slow reader, with relatively good comprehension.

Try a Google search on the term “nonverbal learning disability,” they’ll pop up on the screen.

Hi there Karen,

Please don’t let the NLD website scare you. I lost 15 lbs after researching NLD. My son has not been diagnosed as NLD, but the big VIQ/PIQ split and slow processing were staring me in the face. I haven’t pursued the diagnosis since I do not really care what the label is, I just want to find out how to help him.

Well, I am much fatter now! My son is As and Bs in a regular (small, private) school, he is great reader and he comprehends, math computation is difficult but he has definitely got the concepts, lots of friends, but hopeless with sports. Key here was the small school, with really nice kids.

Socially, there were some mild problems but lots of reinforcement about eye contact, social language—using every concievable situation as a learning possibility. The Speech therapist at the Lab School really helped with eye contact. My son is now deputy head of his house (very Harry Potter) at school!He is now (and actually always was) popular, except in p.e. Although we constantly require exercise. He is in swimming and Tae kwon do. Lately, he asked if we could practice throwing and catching a ball—HIS IDEA!!

A short one year ago, I had to sit with my son every night for 1 to 2 hours to keep him on task to do homework that should have taken 20 minutes. Sometimes I had to practically do it for him…literally put my hand over his to get it on the paper. He couldn’t contemplate not finishing or it not being his work…so I guess as long as his hand was on the pencil too……He was frustrated, and I was pulling the hair out of my head. It was a nightmare.

Well, now he gets off the schoolbus, walks into the house and gives me a rundown of his day: ” Mom, I finished all my math, english and got 100% on my spelling test.” Somedays he says “I finished nearly all my math and got 13/15 on my tables test”.(That’s okay for me. I went into to school and saw his work—not the neatest in the world, but it is all there and it is all correct. ) Anyway, after the announcement he then tells me how much or how little homework he has. Usually it is not too much—times tables, spelling words, a grammar lesson or a math sheet. He then gets down to work and finishes it completely on his own…in half an hour. Now and then he asks for clarification, but rarely.

A year ago it took him ages to handwrite. Now, he can write legibly and speedily…may be missing a crossed t or a dotted i…. He wrote a 25 page report on JFK…it was great….so great half the kids in the class didn’t understand it. He is only 10 (in fact, 9 when he wrote it!).

We have done a combination of things…some useless, some worthwhile. We found OT (SI) and Samonas therapy helpful. I didn’t see much with the SI therapy, but my son insists that it helped him organize himself better. We peaked with Samonas after about a month. Saw great gains in mood, and ability to sit down and complete a task. Last summer, we did a combination of Cranial Sacral Therapy (he was a forceps delivery) and biofeedback. I had thought the biofeedback was a huge waste of money and time, and was not convinced of the CST either. Concurrently, he spent the summer at the Lab School and got Speech Therapy and OT for motor planning and handwriting.

Nothing happened immediately. We live abroad and when we returned from our summer, my husband was amazed at the development and maturity level of our son. And this year has been stellar. (Though I still doubt it had anyhting to do w/biofeedback—but that’s another story).

Well, we are off to try Interactive metronome this summer and probably PACE. I am thinking about vision therapy— our OT recommended it—but his visual processing scores were off the charts—hmmm. He has also been tested for CAPD and that comes up ok too. My son’s problems are mainly motoric—so I am hoping IM will help w/this. You can read about it at www.interactivemetronome.com. I will let you know how it goes if you are interested.

By the way, often times NLD children have trouble learning to read, but once they start, they read very well. Not all of NLD children have comprehension issues either. Some get along socially very well.

I apologize for the length of this but, I just wanted to make sure you do not worry too much about the NLD thing. It is just another label.

All the Best,
Margo

As far as handwriting went….the programs di

It’s an indicator, but there is more to NLD than just a VIQ/PIQ split. NLD kids have a cluster of deficits including visual /spatial, fine and/or gross motor, and socail. Most kids have larger issues in some areas than others. For instance, my NLD son has bigger problems with the visual/spatial and motor stuff, while his social deficits are subtle. (although they are there if you know what you’re looking for) Other kids get referred for testing earlier because the social problem are huge.

As far as reading is concerned, while early reading is common in NLD kids, it’s not always the case, particularly for those with bigger visual/spatial disturbances. But a good neuropsychologist should be able to ferret out the difference between the reading problems of a dyslexic kid, and those of an NLD kid.

It is not at all unusual for early-mid elementary age NLD kids to still be doing fine in terms of comprehension. Most age-appropriate literature is still rather concrete at that stage, and many NLD kids have no problem with it. It gets harder as the kids get older, and more inferential comprehension is needed.

Many NLD kids show only very subtle signs of academic problems in elementary school. The trouble is that NLD is a disability you grow into, and at the same time, it is a disability where it is best that interventions start as early as possible.

Karen

It sounds like you’ve been down the same path we have.

And I agree, reading what’s out there on the web about NLD turned my hair grey!!! What isn’t apparent when you start reading is that most of the doom-and-gloom stuff is 10-20 years old and based on studies of teenagers and young adults who never got the help, support and understanding they needed. I think the prospects are much, MUCH better for our kids!

It sounds like with or without a dx, (which doesn’t help that much since it’s not currently listed in the DSM anyway) you have found what we did… that the right, (structured yet supportive and nurturing setting) is absolutely key. With it, our kids do great. Without it, they fail miserably.

Karen

While there are many things about the characteristics of NVLD that do fit my son, there are several that do not. He has the motoric problems, doesn’t read social cues particuarly well, and has excellent auditory memory. He is also a poor reader, and an even worse speller. He doesn’t learn well by rote, and is in fact an excellent abstract thinker. He does talk too much - something we are investigating to see if anxiety plays a role here. He doesn’t fit NVLD, dyslexia or any other definition I’ve read. I invite anyone interested to review his test scores (posted at the beginning of this thread) to see if anything else jumps out. Thanks!!

I’m certainly not an expert, so I can’t tell you for sure whether your child has NLD, but I do know for sure that very few kids “fit the mold” perfectly. They all have different strengths and weaknesses. One Neuropsychologist explained that if Byron Rourke is correct, and this is a white matter deficit/dysfunction, the expression will vary tremendously, depending on which areas of the brain are most affected.

Sort of like saying someone has had a stroke. That tells you what happened in their brain, but not how much damage there was, or how much of a recovery they can make. It depends on where in the brain it was, how extensive the damage was, and to a large extent, how hard the person is willing to work and what therapy they get.

I guess my thinking is, if an NLD model helps you pinpoint the types of therapy and support that are likely to help your child, use it. Don’t bother with what doesn’t make sense. At the same time, if your child is still in elementary school, I would recommend caution before deciding he “doesn’t have a problem” in a particular area, particularly if there’s a chance he DOES have NLD. A lot of NLD problems don’t show up until the child is older, particularly in those that have a higher basic IQ.

Karen

I don’t know a lot about NVLD but I’ve studied a lot about autistic sectrum disorders, sensory integration disorders, central auditory processing disorders, visual processing disorders, etc. It seems to me that there are many different learning disabilities, that they often appear in clusters and if we continue to label every cluster we find the DSM will end up weighing 1000 puonds because every possible variation may exist.

I hope you get a chance to read my last post.

Well, then maybe I will be able to find my child in it!!!! Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with thickness alone. It doesn’t make sense to make fine lines if there are no different implications for treatment. That, after all, is what we parents are interested in. Labels alone do nothing.

Beth

I agree with your thought about using what is known about a particular disorder to help us put together his treatment plan. Which is why I am trying to understand how closely one has to fit the criteria. For example, we were so sure the testing was going to show dyslexia, that we’ve already got him working with an reading tutor using orton . Its not a bad thing to be doing for him, but we also want to make sure we aren’t bypassing a more fundamental area where therapy or remediation would be appropriate. Thanks!

I think there are often overlapping disorders, and kids that have more than one problem going on at the same time. I think that at this point, NLD (regardless of the horrible name) has been pretty well documented as a distinct disorder at this point, that is documentably (is that a word) different than autistic spectrum disorders and most language based LD’s.

I don’t think there’s much doubt that NLD _will_ be listed in the next DSM, and conscientious school systems are addressing the needs of this unique set of children already. The problem with NLD is that if you look at these children in only one area, their deficits can seem quite mild. It is the layering effect of MULTIPLE deficits that makes this syndrome extremely disabling. All you have to do is look at the depression and suicide statistics of this particular population to know that these kids need more intervention than they have received in the past.

I guess the question then is, “Is it working?” I don’t know enough about Orton Gillingham to know if it is appropriate for NLD kids in general, let alone your particular kid. My younger son, who we are now strongly suspecting is also NLD (neuropsych testing is scheduled for this summer) was a slow starter in reading. The school did some intensive remediation with him in first and second grade, and he is now reading solidly on grade level, though he is not close to the reader his older brother is. So “traditional” remedial reading approaches can certainly help a child who is NLD-ish and slow to catch onto reading.

I also now at least a couple of parents with NLD kids who are also dx’d as dyslexic, so one problem doesn’t negate the other.

Karen

Hello again,

I guess I think of my son as a bright kid who processes slowly. In fact, on most of the diagnostic subtests where he scored poorly, the answers were right but, because they were out of time, they had to be scored as incorrect. So his number one problem is speed.

I am going to take a stab at your scores–warning, I am not qualified— and I may very well be seeing it through my experience–

From the CAS test you mentioned, it looks like he has skill in visual processing and auditory memory. But, the planning subtests and the attention subtests indicate difficulties. Were they timed? Did they include a motor component? The coding subtest on the WISC definitely does have a motor component and is timed. It measures processing speed, visual perceptual decoding, and visual symbols. Symbol search is for visual motor quickness, concentration and persistence. But the CAS visual processing scores were high. I would suspect the WISC coding score is the result of motor output and speed issues. Was there a difference in score between the receptive attention and the expressive attention? If so, it might indicate output difficulty rather than input. A combination of Speech therapy for expressive output, OT for motor planning, and maturity helped us with this.

It sounds as though you are working on motor with an OT. I believe that lots of repetitive exercise, like swimming, will help. I have found that my son does much better academically after swimming. Any SI issues? Not that I am totally convinced of the efficacy of SI therapy, I do have a friend who swears by it.

What I gave gotten (much of it from this board) is to find the sensory areas that are problematic. Do your best to remediate there, then move to the cognitive areas and then to the academics. One problem we found was that our son must do math at school…(and you probably feel your son must read) so we have had to work on that academic issue w/out necessarily remediating the underlying areas first. So, if reading is an issue, I wouldn’t stop working on it. Are you seeing progress with the program you are using?

I have yet to find a single therapy that works on speed. But it has gotten better with time. I am hoping IM followed by PACE will help with both motor and speed. Both the OT and Speech and Language therapist tell me that if we can conquer the motor issues, the expression will come and the speed will improve.

BTW, he was originally pretty lousy at spelling…but now scores great on his tests. There is a difference between tests and working spelling. But, once his reading picked up, working spelling has reached very good levels. My son, mystery that he is, can be both a literal and concrete thinker as well as inferential and abstract.

I hope this helps.
All the Best,
Margo

Thanks for looking at his scores and yes yes yes to all of your questions. Many of the areas where he scored low he did so as a result of a motor output problem. In fact in the written report, our neuropsych talks alot about how this impacted both his IQ tests, and the attention part of the cognitive.

Your response has really got me thinking about persuing OT again, which we haven’t done since he was 5. It seems to me we can remediate the reading (which we do feel we must address now) but should also be looking at the root cause. Our journey with him began with motor planning. Then maybe a PACE type of program would be appropriate.

He’s not really an SI kind of kid, but I know someone with SI, and I think if you need OT for that it probably helps.

It sounds like your son is also a mystery. Enigma is the word the experts (more than one!) have used about my son. He’s been able to do many things that should have been difficult, and then had trouble where we didn’t expect it. But your story gives me great hope!!

Karen,

Have you looked into Interactive Metronome? It explicitly addresses motor planning and may help your son. We are going to begin it in two weeks.

Beth

Beth,
We are goimg to try interactive metronome in the summer. PLEASE let us know your experiences as you progress in the next few weeks.

Karen,
We will be in Westchester this July doing IM. I have the contact info of the OT who will work w/my son. It is not too far from you…let me know if you want it. I will be anxiously awaiting Beth’s experience.

All the best everyome,
Margo

Will do. We don’t start until May 7. I am curious to see what will happen. Very obvious now to me that he is ADD-inattentive. Not severe–but learned today that even in resource room where he can do the work, he just drifts off. He even looks like he is working, according to his teacher, but has done almost nothing. Hard to attribute this pattern to his auditory processing problems (he has capd and I have been trying to sort this out for two years). Anyway, I am really hoping that IM will help his inattention!

Beth

Beth, Thanks for the info. about IM. I too am very interested.
FYI, my son was just evaluated in part b/c we were concerned he was ADD-inattentive. Apparently not! The testing that would indicate ADD didn’t support that conclusion at all. Our evaluated however feels strongly that he has anxiety, and that anxiety can mimic ADD-inattentive.

That is interesting—I would never have thought of anxiety mimicing ADD-inattentive. But I guess you can be distracted for all sorts of reasons. We’ve struggled to figure out what is going on with our son because he has CAPD which also mimics ADD. It is much more clear cut to diagnose CAPD than ADD–which is more subjective. But today I couldn’t think of any other reason (and I have had a list of them) other than ADD for his observed behaviors. He could do the work, it is not auditory information, and he isn’t trying to distract his Mom from getting him to do things he doesn’t really want to do!!!

Beth