Academics isn't everything

Hopefully your son will see the value in *really* developing commitment and dedication and perseverance.

More importantly, please let him know that lots of people who really look like it’s coming easy are working pretty hard. Not all, by a long shot — but it’s a *very* common misconception that good students *don’t* spend lots of time with it, and don’t struggle, don’t have to figure out the strategies and special techniques that work for them.

I think this happens because they have come to expect that they’ll be able to learn this stuff — or, in some cases, they feel pressure to succeed and do well. So with that as a “given” they’re looking for ways to make it possible — or make it easy. Lots of times it looks like it comes “naturally” because they’ve figured out lots of tricks and strategies.

This doesn’t quite sound where your kiddo’s coming from, but it frustrates me greatly when students think that it either comes naturally or… not. And worse yet, that somehow, figuring out a strategy or study skill to match your learning style means you’ve got something *wrong* with you, not that you’re intelligent enough to try things.

Sue, my son does realize that not all students who receive good grades have it easy. Actually the students he prefers to hangout with are good students who get good grades because they work hard. I think his frustration is with the ones he sees goofing off getting A’s being praised or earning awards based solely on grades. He too works hard but does not get the same results. The students who it seems to come to naturally have been very cruel to him calling him names and telling him he won’t amount to anything. Then they turn around and break a commitment they have made, that is where his comments came from. He say’s I am only an average student (with a lot of work), I am not an athlete-but can appreciatte sport, I am not an artist-but can hold my own and appreciatte bueaty, I am not a super muscian-but love my music. What I am is a well rounded person who should be respected we all can not be the top. I think he was airing his frustrations with how some look at him. I thought it was very insightful thinking. Maybe children should be listened to more, they can be very wise.

Kids can be so cruel. Your son is going to survive because 1. he has a loving supportive family 2. he has learned to make sense of the world in a way that preserves his self-esteem. And he right, there is more to life than how smart you are at school. I had a friend in high school who was so smart she made you dizzy. But she didn’t have one drop of common sense. Don’t know what happened to her but I do know many other stories of very very smart people who didn’t make it.

Now this isn’t to say that smart people usually don’t do well but rather than life takes many skills and being good at academics is only one of them.

BTW, I was one of the nerds that got made fun of in junior high school. I preserved my self esteem by thinking smart was everything. Having an LD child, has reoriented me a lot—to appreciate the broader range of talents out there and how many other ways you can spell success.

Beth

The message is already out.

My father has hired a lot of people over the years
and he’ll be the first to tell you that grades and grade
point don’t mean a heck of a lot and is about the last
thing he checks out and never determines who gets
the job.

In my, ahem, 24 years out of college I have never
been asked what my grade point was in college
for any job I was hired for.

Anne

Going to a high school reunion can be quite an eye opener. The gal I knew with the straight A average, star athlete, etc. ended up a 300 lb stay at home mom. No, there is nothing wrong with being a 300 lb, stay at home mom, I am sure she has given 100% to her family and community, but she didn’t end up the Olympic gold medalist/rocket scientist that I thought she would be.
Another class mate that I remember having a really hard time in school, couldn’t get accepted to college, etc., ended up self employed as a commercial artist and has a great career.
Talk to any high school teacher, they will tell you many tales of brilliant honor roll students who burn out and end up running a cash register.
I remember reading somewhere that the majority of millionaires had B or C averages in high school.

The there is the flip side too! Those fall through the crack kids,the ones who obtain good grades,therefore not qualifying for services,but in need of them anyway.
Yes,there are kids who get A’s who need help,as desperately as the guys making poor grades.

Interestingly this is a conversation my sixteen yr old daughter and I have been having on and off this year. She- nondisabled nonathletic dancer theater writer person that she is- has always chosen to take the more difficult courses in school- including math and science. It has been a struggle at times and I commend her but her grades are average. So much for context. Her struggle has been watching the LD kids who have extensive resource room support and are taking less demanding courses- be the honor students while the students like her work more and receive less recognition. She is my child and she understands the need for CAMS- having watched me go for all these years- but it makes less sense to her to say that the playing field is level- because it isn’t. There is a distinct tilt the other way sometimes. I know our district is something of an anomoly from listening to you all for so long- but this issue CAN go both ways.

Robin

Believe me we can see both sides of the issue at our house. My 3 kids are so different academically it seems we have all the bases covered. My oldest the one who made the comments has some LD issues but they are not severe so he did not get the support the more severe kids get. He was required to do all the assigments on time with little or no accomodations. When he did receive accomodations he actually had teachers who scored him lower for using them. The school also weighs the LD classes less then regular and advanced courses (to avoid tipping the ladder in other direction). My NT daughter is a straight A student, she is one who does not have to excert much effort. She actually finds school rather boring and dootles in every single class. She bought all her notebooks home and they were filled with drawings. It makes you wonder how she maintained that A average. She always struggles in gym though and had a difficult time in band-but she never gave up on these and realizes we each have our own strengths and weaknesses to deal with. Their brother who falls on the Autism spectrum does not even seem aware about the importance of school. He has a very uneven profile and picks up some subjects rather easily without much effort and others that he has to expand a lot of energry on (with much assitance from an adult). As you can see we have seen a lot of the angles. My son just commented that all that seemed to be important at the end was who got the good grades. The announcement being 39 students made high honors, 119 made honors. How high these kids scored on mandated testing and how it brought honor to the school. I think it was wonderful that my friends sons letter was read at graduation but then all the talk was grades and high achievement. We just believe there is more to life then that.

and unfortunately our system does not allow much recognition of other sorts of gifts- nor does it value them as highly as academics when they are recognized. It is difficult to convince a struggling reader of any age that their uncanny aptitude with all things mechanical or musical or interpersonal or whatever will take them just as far in life and ultimately give them as much or more satisfaction as that elusive A in Science. The system they live in every day hammers it home differently.

At the same time we do not convince our academically capable-or athletically capable for that matter- that there are other things in life that will enrich them. The saddest thing is that parents-who should hopefully know better- get caught in the same bind.

I wonder- just as a point of discussion- how the kids whose parents invest all these expensive and somewhat dubious (because of insufficient time in practice mostly) therapies- how these kids interpret the message they are receiving. Many of the kids I evaluate see the need for an evaluation as a clear message that something is wrong with them- and they are absolutely right at some level. How much more emphatic is that message then when their parents put them through rigorous and intensive programs on vacations and after school designed to “remediate cognitive deficits”. Is this anymore balanced than the parents who do the whole SAT/college application prep bandwagon thing? Somehow we are teaching our children that what they ARE is not good enough. Is that really the message we want them to have?

This has turned into a small rant and I apologize. I haven’t done this for a while:) But clearly it has been eating at me and this thread provided an opportunity…

Robin

Robin,

We’ve had the same thing. Our high schools publish the A and B honor rolls. My older daughter, also 16, has made an occasional high B and the rest A’s. With honors and AP classes, her GPA is always above 4.0. So when another student taking much lower classes pulls all A’s (no honors or AP) with a 4.0, they get on the A honor roll and she doesn’t. This, of course, is not fair and does not reward the students who take the more difficult classes. It’s a good thing she’s self-motivated, becuase I have liitle use for such inequities.

Janis

Robin,

My son is one of the children who has had a lot of therapy. We haven’t always made the right choices (we shouldn’t have done PACE last summer–his sensory integration issues prevented adequate progress for the energy expended). But I will say this—my son’s self esteem is actually much better because of the therapy, especially Neuronet. The tasks he has had to do are incremental enough that he has consistently experienced success (that is one thing I didn’t like about PACE—too big of increments). Also, he has integrated his sensory system in some ways that are of major benefit to a kid–he can jump rope, walk on stilts, jump on a pogo stick, plays soccer much better ect. He is more typical because of it.

We also have worked with exceptional people. My son really loves the two therapists he has had and never complains at all about going. They support him and help make him feel good about himself. They applaud his successes and encourage him to push himself.

I had a friend whose college age daughter is LD visit me. She told me that what impressed her most about my son was his self esteem. She told me that her daughter’s took a real beating but it is obvious that he feels really good about himself.

I think the secret is choosing wisely so that you get real payoff. Kids know when something is making a difference and that encourages them. I also know from personal experience that isn’t always easy, even with good advice.

Beth

One of life’s truism’s is that we are all different…and I am sincerely delighted that you found a way and the right people to make it work for your child. I only want folks to think about their whole child when they investigate ways to support them- and to consider all the costs- not just the financial ones- and whether the benefits of increasing something like digit span- which was a hot discussion on this board for quite a while- are worth it in the larger picture. It is a balancing act either way- that’s for sure.

Robin

Unfortunately academic success, grade point averages, ACT/SAT scores, National Merit Award winners, etc. are how schools are determined to be “good”. In addition, the philosophy is that education does not end with a high school diploma so unfortunately the schools must provide academic curriculum for that preparation as that is what the taxpayers feel they are paying for. Education needs an overhaul or maybe we need to operate as they do in Japan and track children into their areas of success. The only sad thing is that some children develop great strengths later in life. What is success anyway - I like your sons perception.

right on - I find it interesting that credit isn’t given to students who have their own learning problems, not identified, but sweat it out and develop those necessary compensating skills. There are a lot of kids who work very hard to get those good grades and perservere when it gets tough. Most of the LD students I work with would rather have someone else do it for them and tend to be very disinterested in getting “sweaty” about anything academic. Yet, what I find the most interesting is that they think they are going to college. Not with their work ethic and level of effort they aren’t - or won’t be there too long. We need to demand more from our sped kids - the world will!

What is Pace?

Your boy has emotional IQ and that, studies have shown, is a more important indicator of future success (being recognized for skill and abilities by others) in a chosen field than academics or IQ scores. When I started researching dyslexia one of the first thigs I read said that dyslexics usually do really well after school. If they can invent their own way of doing things they’re fine. It’s when they have to do it an academic way that they fall about.
Even before my son was born I was skeptical about all the parental jockying for schools and education this and that. I have the same doubts when I hear parents repeat the conventional wisdom, “Nobody can get by wo reading in this modern world.” The conclusion is that in the future all jobs will require reading. But we’ve raised several generations of kids who don’t LIKE reading already. Can we really assume they’re going to accept a world that requires them to read all day? Or will they invent technology to change it?
How can we possibly educate children for the future? Couldany of us as children in the 60’s and 70’s have guessed that our world would be completely remodeled by computers??? I’ve waVEREd on homeschooling my son if he gets to the point he can handle the reading in school, but whenever I really think about what skills he’ll need to survive all the unknowns that the future will bring it comes down to resourcefullness, problem solving, learning systems instead of memorizing pieces, understanding the whole picture quickly and adapting to change, And as important as reading is , is how to use geometry to build something, understanding electrics, engines, gears and pulleys, plumbing. (What if the future is not more high tech but a kind of dark ages. Maybe been reading too much about postRoman Britain lately.)
What school really values and teaches to those skills? Yet what skills come most naturally to my dyslexic son? Exactly those skills!! This also been thinking about for long time in connection with previous thread about IM beingno cure. Sorry if long.

My son is actually thinking about going into education. He says who better to teach a child with LD then someone who has been there themselves? He has always been VERY patient with young children. He loves to go to the lower grades to read to them, they love it because it he not only reads the story to them he acts it out. The teachers get a charge out of him making the story visual. He says he does this because it helps the kids to listen and it really helps the kids who need a visual cue. He even changes his voice to reflect different characters. One of his teachers actually made the suggestion to him. The high school he will be attending next year has a club for future teachers and he plans on joining to see if it is what he really wants. Would his teachers he had in ND who thought he was lazy and not motiviated just faint if they knew this?

Now I have to admit we have not really worked on my son’s digit span, although I have read reports here of it being very important. Basically, I realized after trying some exercises that I probably only have a digit span of 5 but functionally I have a great memory. I easily memorized everythng I needed throughout school and still keep my calendar pretty much in my head. But I only know my own home and work phone numbers and that took some effort !!!

Made me realize how complicated memory is.

I think you do have to think of the whole child but for parents it is really hard to know where the payoff will be. For example, my child spent the whole summer between first and second grade doing Fast Forward. We did parts of it for four months—way beyond the protocol. He just didn’t make normal progress. In that time though, he mastered all the exercises. We have seen permanent and pretty fundamental changes in his receptive language skills as a result. Was it tough? Yes. Was it worth it? Yes. But I would have said no if we did not have the changes. But you just don’t know when you make choices. You don’t know when sticking to something will be the turning point and when you will later regret it. And, truth be known, professionals can’t always predict either. I just don’t think the state of knowledge is there yet.

Beth

He sounds like a great kid. And when you see the little boys respondwhen they get a male teacher or scout leader you know having a man teaching ldboys would give them that much more confidence. No offense girl Mom’s,
I’ve wondered about this for other dyslexics. My cousin wanted to train for a degree that would be teaching deaf kids thru theatre. She’s now gone back to it after raising kids and doing bringing home 2nd income job for 22 years. She’s studying signlanguage seriously and loving it.
I also have an accupuncturist here who was a GP for years then trained as accupuncturist. They don’t correspond. She says she’d have been a better accu wo the western medicine background. Her daughter went thru OXford (history degree) and is now making puppets and performing, teaching with them. Girl is not ld and Mom could hav said-what a waste of education -instead is delighted. Why not be delighted wo the expensive education step???

It is a cognitive training program. I don’t have the website handy but you could do a search on these boards and show up a number of references to it. My honest opinion is that it is well done and good for many kids. The secret, I think, is in determining where the deficit lies. My son simply didn’t make much progress with the program, despite all our efforts. For my son, it wasn’t the right program at the right time. My son’s problems are very sensory-motor based and we have seen far more progress using programs that target those areas. He has CAPD, Visual processing deficits, and sensory integration difficulties.

Another cogntive training program is Audioblox. It takes longer, but is far less expensive. It doesn’t have the same auditory processing component as PACE—which is why I chose PACE but again it seems to work really well for some kids (but not for others).

Beth

I agree! My little girl is very visual and creative and has great fine motor skills. I will not be surprised at all if she wants to be fashion designer, a floral arranger, or a hair stylist! And that’s okay with me! God made her different for a reason, and I won’t force her into the 4 year degree mold if that’s not going to benefit her. Anyway, I have a freind whose daughter has her own hair business and she makes about 1 1/2 times as much as I do a year teaching!

Janis

My hubby is not thrilled with his sons choice but respects it because it is his choice. I think God gave each of our gifts for a reason and they should be used and not wasted just for the sake of success. All the adults who know my son comment on how patient, kind, and understanding he is. I think it is these same personality traits that helped him to survive school thus far. If he took the approach of being class clown or other similar behaviors to get by I don’t think the teachers would of been as tolerant of his down falls. They all comment on you can’t help but want to help him. Their biggest help this year to him was learning his self worth and how to help himself. Two years ago he was a VERY dependent child now he is very independent although still highly unorganized young man. We (his parents and him) realize his career choice will not be easy for him to obtain but feel it is reachable. Janis what do you think of an LD student becoming a teacher?

Lisa,

I think it would be wonderful for someone with LD to grow up and become a teacher! The sad part about it is, becoming a teacher requires a lot of academics to get there. You have to get the high school diploma and then take 2 years of general college courses (English, math, history, and science) before you ever get to the education major. I would see the first two years as the most difficult for a LD person. However, taking those first two years at a community college probably would make it somewhat less difficult and stressful. I would also recommend that any child with challenges take 5 years to complete the degree. Just take 4 courses per semester rather than 5.

Your son sounds precious, by the way. I know you are proud of him!

Janis

I have a problem with the point of view that having your child undergo various therapies is somehow cruel. It takes an incredible amount of effort to
1. recognize a problem is a problem. Especially when you are sure to find so many willing to feed your denial with the old “They will grow out of it rhetoric.”

2. Find out what that problem even is. The more I do this the more I am finding that the educational system and medical system surrounding learning deficits is the most unexact of sciences. (I keep thinking of the movie Lorenzo’s Oil where their was no cure for the child’ illness so the mother had to invent her own.)

3. Ok now you have found out what it is and I am not talking about those wonderfully specific labels (sarcasm)like disgraphia. Can you imagine going to a neuropsych to be told your child is disgraphic? What a joke. It is like going to my MD to have my iron deficient anemia labeled as “fatigue.” Well thank you very much I know my child can’t write and I know I am very tired. That is not a diagnosis.
Ok so now I know my childs spacial issues which affect his writing are related to his vesibular system. He seeks out proprioceptive stimulus. Does he havea hypoactive vestibular system?Is it the vestibular ocular reflex. This fits the spacial issues. I may never fully understand but I won’t stop trying.

4. Ok so now thatI have a better handle on the issues what is the best treatment. I have done all of this without my child knowing all the details of my quest. I don’t want him to feel as though his problems are that bad that they require so much work to figure them out. His problems really aren’t that bad. This is just how it is with inexact science.

I guess this is a round about way saying for sure sending your child through too much therapy is wrong. Too much of anything is wrong. Heck I know a kid on 3 baseball teams that surely seems wrong.

I am more concerned with people reading this thread and feeling that the quest is not worth undertaking. That it is too intimidating or damaging to the child to get help.
I have a good friend whose parents were very proactive when she was a child. She remembers her dad practicing throwing balls to her every night to improve her hand eye coordination. She had special tutors and special therapy that was somewhat unheard of back in the 70s when she was growing up.
She grew up to do well in school without accomodations. She was on her tennis team in high school despite the fact she remembers failing miserably at sports during elementary school. She became the highest earning salesperson in a technology company. She has a great personality and is sharp as a tack. She says she still has trouble when people recite phone numbers to her but that it is only a minor annoyance rather than a major hinderance.
She encourages me to seek help for my child.

I know another who didn’t get help until college. She laments the fact that she always just thought she was just dumb.She recieved help for her memory deficits when she was in college. She learned to trick her mind into moving information from short term to long term memory.

She did well even getting her masters degree. She probably would have dropped out if not for the neurologist that finally helped her to pinpoint and deal with her deficit.

Just wanted to tell you that my son’s resource teacher is LD. She told me that she was told in high school that she had better count on being an aide. She graduated with a masters degree with honors!!! I think, like Janis suggested, she took longer to complete her degrees. Anyway, it made a big impression on my son that she was LD also. She is new this year and shared this with the kids on the first day.

She was also told she would not walk—now only walks with a slight limp. She still has a speech impediment. She, like your son, had wonderful family support which I think is key. I think a LD teacher also shows kids by example what can be overcome.

Beth

I did not say getting help was wrong quiet the contrary I think intervening and the early the better is what is needed. I also think that what the other responders are saying is that it is best to find a balance and that that balance may be hard to find. Each of us is an individual and respond to things differently. You are with your child more then anyone else and know what is right for them. If it feels right and the child is cooperating go for it. Good luck to you and your family in your adventure.

Sorry Lisa,

It is a sore spot. I here so much that he will grow out of it stuff. It makes me a little nuts! Didn’t mean to imply that was what you were saying.