Any comments??

I stumbled over this on a teacher’s board. Thought it would be interesting to see what you all thought of this.

My first question would have to be ,does this child have or had an IEP?

Did this student have an idea of how she was doing and was at risk for failing,prior to graduation time?

The only other thing I have to comment on is,
1.It is a shame that this family got what they wanted by being able to hire an attorney,while others who can not afford it,couldn’t have.( not to say,they shouldn’t have gotten it)
2. The child passed her test,she,even late, was able to satisfy the requirements for graduation,granted late,but do all kids have the ability to perform in the alloted time period?
3. Why do we have the time frame anyway? Hmm…..
4. Does being able to do only at the school’s timeframe mean preparedness for higher education?
5. Should this child not recieve a diploma,because it wouldn’t be fair to everyone else? If the answer would be yes,then why is it fair to provide accomodations to an LD student? Is this a different kettle of fish?

While the story might be considered very different if she has an IEP,therefore protected by our federal government,is this a fair determination of whether the child deserves or doesn’t deserve a diploma? I find it extremely interesting that what ultimately determined her ability to obtain a high school diploma was a book report on the holocaust;-)

There are states like mine, Massachusetts, that have made individual schools’ and teachers’decisions on graduation requirements secondary to passing a mandatory state exam (called the MCAS) in Math and English, given in 10th grade. I don’t believe that parents and attorneys can circumvent this requirement. I believe this is what Bush supports nationwide.

If I were the teacher I’d wonder how could I help to get the student to graduate not that this student doesn’t deserve to graduate.It seems the teacher’s goal is askew.If she felt the student shouldn’t graduate did she give extra help during the year to the student so they could? It would be interesting to know the details.I hope it doesn’t affect negatively on LD students ( that LD students don’t need modifications) as I would probably want a lawyer for my child also as mine may not be able to write that report but have it be an oral report.

Why couldn’t the student participate in graduation ceremonies and then take a retest after the graduation?

I hate to say this but the first thing that came to my mind after I read this story was that this student didn’t do the work in the first place, didn’t expect to fail, and then when faced with the possibility of not getting a diploma, freaked out and got a lawyer.

That is only what my impression was, I could be way off the mark.

Also, when my younger brother was due to graduate high school, I found out the day before graduation that his health teacher was going to fail him and that he would have to return in the fall and take a half year health class. Fortunately, for him and for us, he had an IEP which of course the school was not following. We ended up spending the entire day at the school scrambling to help him finish his work. We also ended up finding out at about 2 hours to the bell that he was missing English work as well.

It was really a sick game the school was playing. We were very new and green to the entire special ed game. We didn’t know until just recently that he has CAPD and dyslexia and the entire 12 years he was in school they said he had ADD!! Another example of beleiving that the school is looking out for the best interest of your child!

Anyway, who knows why this student hired a lawyer but the whole thing sounds a little fishy!!

K.

And will we ever get the full story?

I am always astonished when I read a news story about
something that I am involved in or know a heck of a lot
about at all the errors contained within the story.

I wonder how much warning the child and family had?
This stuff shouldn’t come as a surprise at the last minute.

But am also not surprised that a student would completely
blow off assignments.
A friend taught Earth Science, which
is designed for kids who can’t cut regular science.
If the kids
just did the daily entry task, five minutes tops amount of
work, they would pass the class -
they could blow off all
of the homework, flunk all the exams, but if they did the
daily task, just DID the darn thing, not even get it right, they
would pass –––-
and yet they wouldn’t even do that!

Anne - who just put her name on next year’s master’s
program to get, yes, you guessed it, a masters in teaching.

Looks like the real winner is the school. Now they can just pass em along and get em out of their hair. Lawyers always seem to make things worse.

Weasels = Lawyers = weasels Goldbrickers = educators + June +July + August = a politicized educational system. Educate yourself!

I disagree. My school acted like total schmucks until the lawyer showed up.

They started the meeting by trying to give him the run around and say look at these fabulous test scores, see how much he has improved.

First the meeting started. While the lawyer was giving the run down to the participants of the meeting, I noticed the principal had started to draw the Bell Curve for the Atty. I was crossing my fingers that this Principal would be so ignorant and explain the bell curve to a Special ED atty. While she was busy drawing away, which mind you, he could see because there were only 6 of us at the meeting, and she was seated right next to him, the lawyer said, I majored in statistics in undergraduate school, that is what my pre law school degree is in. They shut up.

Then he told them it was important that he knew what the Percentile ranks were, since that was all he was allowed to use in court. The shut up.

Finally, the atty explained that the child we were there to discuss had not be properly educated. Either they got on the ball or well suffered the consequences. So far so good.

So sometimes Atty do some good. I won’t group them all together anymore and call them weasels.

One rotten apple doesn’t always ruin the bunch.

Just my opinion!!

K.

Here is my take. If I had to guess on the missing peices,like Anne,commented there are alot of those.

Know quite a few attorney’s. Some are weasels.
I don’t know if anyone has noticed,but there are very few special education attorneys,very few. Mostly because attorney’s are concerned about making money. The money in educational law is working for the school system.

My favorite sped atty,and one I consider a good friend,will tell you this. “when you come to me,it is going to cost a lot of money,if the situation is such that the only other avenue to take is court,then I’m your guy,but it cost money to do it,and I want to win.” Now with that being said.

In anything,there are truths that one can derive more of the story from. One such statement,that rung true for me was a school official stating we never give in to parents.This is in itself a very true statement.UNLESS,the is only one reason generally that you will see the school give in.
When they know they would lose in court. Not that they are wrong,but that the parents has a better case then they do.

For this reason,and this reason only,not only was there more to this story,but I would be willing to bet these parents had a good case against the school.
The one thing an Attorney would NOT do this if he didn’t have a case.

obviously, the child in question had learned the material necessary-she passed the test-isnt that what its all about?????

The time frame? Who knows the entire story? If this kid was barely squeaking by across the board or just in this class? But if giving one retake of one test was all it took to give a child a hs diploma vs a lifetime of less opportunities, give the da…. test. And it shouldnt have taken a lawyer to get it done!

Socks,

There are a lot of parent responses here - and I agree that if that test was the only thing standing in the way of graduation, the child had learned enough to graduate. I am concerned about the way that happened - but we’ll never know the entire story - there really aren’t enough facts provided to make a good judgement call.

How did the teachers on the board where you got this story respond, generally?

Lil

;-) It is funny how my very first instinct was,how stupid and absurd,that one test made or broke a high school student.

I kind of agree with you. Give the damn test.

It is difficult to pin down the issue with an article that is not all inclusive of the information needed to make a sound decision. Having said this…

It would be absurd, mean spirited and somewhat cruel to keep a child from graduating due to one test’s score. I would think it would be far more compassionate to have the child agree to re-take the test during the summer, including taking a summer school class if failing the test; but to take away graduating with one’s peers at the last possible moment FOR ONE TEST RESULT, only shows the lack of concern for a child’s welfare - - - IEP or NOT.

Once again, the teacher union shows how spineless it really is, regardless of “right” or “wrong” issues; when a teacher is forced into a corner, the union protection seems to turn to jelly. The same is true when a teacher is fighting for a child’s rights as well.

Sadly, not having had the $ to hire attorneys to fight with our district over completely different matters… for us, no attorney = no FAPE :(

Andy

Obviously we don’t know the whole story. But here are my thoughts..

- Why would we ,of all people, question that these parents have a right to advocate for their child (whether she was “deserving” of modifications or not)? Aren’t we all squeaky wheels on behalf of our children?

- Why blame the attorney? Of course there are good and bad examples of behavior in any profession - but let’s not fault someone for doing their job.

- It does raise interesting questions about accomodations for kids who may not qualify for accomodations under an IEP… what if a kid is just a slow reader, but not LD. That could make it hard to get good grades on timed tests. Makes me wonder why we grade kids in the first place. My kid’s don’t get grades until 7th grade which let’s everyone just work on achieving their personal best. On the other hand - in real grown up life there are deadlines that must be met.

- What’s the significance of the fact that this girl completed a book report on the holocaust?

I think there is more to this story; I also believe Arizona is one of the states fighting to delay high stakes graduation testing requirements.

I have followed the comments on this thread with a great deal of interest today- not commenting until now because clearly there needed to be more to the story than we had access to. Thanks to SAR I think the issues are a bit clearer , yes? This is not advocating for a child in need- this is bullying. Sorry guys- I am with the teacher on this one. This child’s parents and the lawyer did not do her any favors, nor did the spineless school district. I have seen at least one other situation similar to this up close and personal and I was not impressed in that case either. This is how parental advocacy gets a bad name and you should all be furious at these folks for making your job much harder.

Robin

>>This is how parental advocacy gets a bad name and you should all be furious at these folks for making your job much harder<<

amen!

You can always tell the teachers who have been abused by parents….
when I go in for my first ‘this is my son’ meeting they
look like deer caught in the headlights. “Is this woman
going to be one of *those* parents?”

It takes them awhile to decide that I’m not a rabid parent
and then they visibly relax.

Anne - who has had all her shots ;-)

AHHH,Thank you so much SAR for more info on this.

I fail to understand where the attorney would have a case here? And more amazing is the district’s response.

And Robin you are right,it does give all of us a bad name. Why is it when there is a story in which goes the other way,such as parents who frequent the boards,you can’t get the press to cover it??

To me the holocaust is a prime example of mass dysfunctionalism. Sort of like the bearucractic system called school.

Here thousands of “good” german soldiers stood by and allowed,even participated in the destruction of millions of innocent lives,all in the name of their leader,and what they were told.No one stopped to think for themselves. Sound familiar?
Sorry,I can make some strange connections sometimes:-)

I often wonder how so many people become followers and not leaders.

Then I thought of my neighbor. She has three children. Two teenagers and a kindergartener. Recently, the teenager was caught selling drugs at school, marijuana. He was obviously expelled and after some intense questions told his parents that the neighbors son had given him the marijuana and instructed him how to sell it. I also must add that it is common knowledge in the neighborhood and to the police that this young man (the one handing out the drugs) sells and smokes drugs.

So anyway, he got caught suspended from school for the rest of the year and has to do community service. He really was all that sorry, he thought the suspension was a vacation and the community service really isn’t so bad. It is at a local community center. I have talked with his mother several times. She is pretty disturbed and doesn’t understand what she can do. I have been thinking about it a lot.

How did he become such a follower? Well first of all he is screaming for attention. I know that sounds pretty far fetch but he is. He did something so outrageous that he grabbed his parents attentions. Secondly, his parents taught him how to be a follower. When they first discovered he was hanging out with this crowd and what they were up to, she should have put her foot down. Instead she told him she didn’t like it but didn’t follow up. She showed him even though she didn’t like it, it was o.k. to follow along. Finally, this kid needs friends. Plain and simple. He needed to be signed up for little league or music lessons. Most importantly she needed to pay more attention.

So, what is the point of that very long post. Well, learning to not stand up for what you beleive in starts somewhere, and it is usually at home!!

K.

Couldn’t have said it better myself!! Amen.

Text of the lawyer’s letter

Peoria graduation controversy
Stories
• Decision to allow Peoria student to graduate draws outrage
• Student gets diploma after threatening lawsuit
Poll
POLL: Should the school have caved in?
Commentary
• Benson: Cupcake got her diploma
• Ruelas: Lawyer made an offer school couldn’t refuse
• Editorial: Failing your classes? Get a better lawyer
Exchange of letters
• Text of the lawyer’s letter
• Text of the teacher’s response
• Editorial: Pathetic plight in Peoria

June 11, 2002 04:54:00

(Editor’s Note: The student’s name has been replaced by “the student” and “she” to protect her privacy.)

May 22, 2002

Dear Ms. Joyce (sic):

This firm represents (the family of the student at issue). As you know, she has been recently denied the opportunity to graduate with her Sunrise Mountain High School class in May of 2002.

It is our understanding that up until very recently, you assured the student that she was going to graduate this May, meaning that her grade point average, credits, percentages, whatever you want to call it, was sufficient to allow her to do so.

You recently informed the student that she was not going to graduate with her class in May of 2002, because her percentage points, again, the terminology you use will be left for another time, were about approximately 1.5 points short.

Since hearing this devastating news, the student has been very sick, unable to sleep or eat and she has been forced to seek medical attention. To say that she has experienced Severe Emotional and Physical Distress over this matter is an understatement.

Without getting into the very detailed explanations of what has occurred here, it does seem quite unusual and suspect. Apparently, you have failed to produce your “Syllabus” indicating all of the raw scores and how you arrived at your conclusions. The student is entitled to view all of her work and to see how it has been graded. In fact, she is entitled to see how the work of all the other students in her class was graded in comparison to hers. We know that a student’s grade or total score in a given class is based on a variety of factors, only some of which are test scores. There is also the question of subjective versus objective grading, especially in short answer or essay type exams. Of course, all information regarding your background, your employment records, all of your class records, past and present, dealings with this and other students become relevant, should litigation be necessary.

The student was all ready to graduate and, now, at the eleventh hour she is told that she will not. As you know, the student is on the Student Council and she was looking forward to speaking at the Graduation Ceremonies. It is certainly a shame that this young lady’s life has now been ruined forever. As you can certainly appreciate, because you are a teacher, this is supposed to be a milestone in a young lady’s life. Now, she will not be able to experience it. The student will be scarred for life.

As you know, the student’s parents have approached the Peoria School District about these troubling matters and have simply been told, “It is up to the teacher, she can do whatever she wants to do.” This, obviously, means that these matters rest squarely on your shoulders.

We ask at this time that you take whatever action is necessary to correct this situation so that it can be settled amicably. Failing that, you will force us to institute litigation.

Truly yours,

Stan F. Massad

Ok then! He definately didn’t pull any punches. Fix the grade or we’ll sue!!

Interesting. I have to say though. I have had this situation several times with my sisters charter school. I had two particular problems last semester. The first was with an English teacher. To my face she said that if my sister completed the missing work for her class she would easily have a C. When the report card came out it was a D. When questions she changed her story and refuses to provide me with a syllabus listing how she obtained her grade. The second was with a Biology teacher, he also stated she was missing three lab assignments. She completed them and handed them in prior to the start of their mid assignments, then when the grade came out, he did not count them in to the grade, saying it gave her an F in his class. Again, he won’t provide a syllabus to me. Her math teacher recently announced that the school fired her before spring break but told her she had to stay becuase they are short on teachers.

So, I can’t say I wouldn’t take similar action.

K.

No need to apologize - I didn’t understand the reference, but now that you’ve clarified it makes sense. Especially in the context of what you’ve experienced at the hands of the school system.

Boy, do I agree with Robin on this one!

Just this spring we had a similar controversy at our high school. My daughter received an invitation to be inducted into the National Honor Society. The process was that children with a GPA above 3.6 (or so) were identified. Then they had to submit information regarding all of their extracurricular activities and leadership experiences. The third component was that all the teachers had to rate the student on several character issues. One or two bad scores would not eliminate a student. It would have to be the average of all the teachers who had had the student over a three year period…potentially as many as 24 teachers.

Well, one girl from a well off family did not get an invitation. She really did not have the leadership activities nor the character references in all likelihood, according to my daughter. Her parents sent TWO attoneys to the school to challenge the teacher ratings. GET THIS! The teachers were forced to RE-DO the ratings, and guess what, she was on that stage on induction day with all the other kids!!! My daughter said that cheapened the whole thing for her and it really wasn’t an honor anymore.

We probably still don’t know the whole story about the original post. There are smart mouth kids out there that know their power and even threaten teachers that they will sue if the grades are not brought up. Some teachers bow to the pressure because they need their jobs. Others get fed up and quit. As a result, there is a teacher shortage in many states and we have totally unqualified people in many classrooms. I am thankful I do not have to deal with that kind of thing in my position…I wouldn’t last long!

Janis

The teacher’s generally responded with this happens all the time,and see what parents put us through etc.

Yeah,maybe it is about what I have experienced,but not really sure if it is what I experienced as a student or a parent.. Neither was a pleasure.

To threaten without some basis or documentation is a very risky thing,not to mention dumb. What would happen if the district decided to file suit? They could,so could the teacher.
In any kind of letter or strategy used,you must or should always think of the ultimate thing,which would be due process court. You must be able to back up what you say,can’t imagine this attorney not having this. Is it possible this attorney isn’t a special ed. attorney? Would a personal injury attorney do this? This I know nothing about,maybe it is possible. No mention in either letter’s from the Atty. or the teacher indicating attachments,in other words documents backing up what they said? Like did the teacher have notices indicating that she did truely give notice to the student? Did the Atty have documentation showing documentation of the teacher stating the student was passing? Hmm,it is truely a puzzle. At any rate one might never know the true story.

I suppose the bottom line would be,if the student needed to finnish work,if she didn’t satisfy the requirements she could attend summer school? Not sure what the big deal is? Interesting though,god knows,I know people with outrageous stories to tell,who can’t get anyone to listen.

It’s astonishing how the instant reaction is blame the sleazy lawyer, then blame the lousy teacher, blame the rabid parent, blame the lazy student. What kind of hiearchy is that, anyway? Who and what are all of these groups fighting against anyway? The System, to sound like a paranoid conspiracy fanatic. But really, the people that ought to be held accountable are the politicians and administration bureaucrats in Central Office who change the rules while the game’s being played. They cut necessary funds, eliminate worthy programs, demoralize excellent teachers, and dear God, let’s test all “normal” students to death on state-sanctioned examinations, while denying specialty testing to students who are struggling. One hand doesn’t know what the other hand is doing. Instead of sniping at each other at who’s to blame, perhaps we ought ask just what goal it is the bureaucrats have in mind. Is it to educate the students? Probably not. Is it to manipulate the data to suggest that “progress” is being made? That’s what I’d guess. The sleazy lawyers, the lousy teachers, the rabid parents, and the lazy students ought to get together and stand down for the right for all children to become genuinely educated by going to school.

I just searched some more information on this case. Here is what this teachers response to the lawyer was.

Text of the teacher’s response

June 11, 2002 04:54:00

(Editor’s Note: The student’s name has been replaced by “the student” and “she” to protect her privacy.)

Stan F. Massad
Attorney at Law
Dear Mr. Massad:

I am in receipt of your letter dated May 22, 2002, which threatens me with civil litigation if I do not give (the student in question) a passing grade so she may graduate with her high school class Thursday May 23, 2002.

The student was given every opportunity to pass my class and graduate with her high school class in the spring of 2002. However, the student failed to take advantage of the opportunities that were provided to her. She had a number of unexcused absences from my class. She plagiarized a class assignment and had low test scores because she failed to study. The student was recently given an extra opportunity to work on her final assessment paper; however, she failed to attend the make-up session. Effective April 5, 2002, failure notices were sent home to the student’s parents each week giving them notice that she was failing my class. I even spoke to the student’s father on the telephone advising him that she was in danger of failing my class. The student’s parents showed no concern about her lack of academic progress until they found out she was actually not going to graduate approximately two weeks ago.

I never “assured” the student that she would graduate with her class as your letter states. What I did tell the student was that she could graduate with her class if she completed all of her classroom work on time and did the work well. She failed this task.

Both the student and her parents were allowed to see her classroom scores and were provided with detailed information on how I calculated her grade in my class. Her parents were given a syllabus that described the grading policies and calculations. Her grade was not “1.5 points” short. She received a 57 percent, which included extra credit points and partial credit for a plagiarized assignment. Without these additions, her grade would have been quite a bit lower. A percentage score adds up to be quite a few raw points. I must disagree with you. I do not believe the student is “entitled” to see how the work of all the other students in her class was graded in comparison to her. My grading policy is both fair and consistent.

It does not surprise me that the student and her parents are casting her as the “victim” in this matter and attempting to shift blame to me for not graduating with her class this spring rather than holding the student herself responsible. It seems in our popular culture today, people, including a past President, are no longer willing to accept any responsibility or consequences for their actions or choices they make.

The student is now an adult and she (and her parents) must accept responsibility for the choices that the student has made in her high school career. She chose to have unexcused absences, plagiarize an assignment and not study course material, resulting in her low test scores. The consequences of these actions are that the student will not graduate this spring with her high school class. I would be remiss in my duties as a teacher if I passed the student knowing that she did not complete the required work to pass my English course in a satisfactory manner. Caving to your demands and the demands of her parents to pass her when she does not deserve to pass would not be fair to my other students who attended class and worked hard, studied, completed assignments on time and turned in quality work.

In your letter, you write: “It is certainly a shame that a young lady’s life has now been ruined forever and she will be scarred for life.” This is hardly the case. The student would be a very capable student if she would apply herself, study and get her assignments in on time. Instead of being scarred for life, perhaps she will learn these lessons now, rather than when she is in college or in the work force.

As far as your threat to litigate this case, do what you must. I do not believe you have a sustainable cause of action in this matter. You may also want to explain to the student’s parents the rules of discovery cut both ways. I think your clients would be better off investing their money in summer school tuition for the student rather than wasting their money on attorney fees, litigating a case with little likelihood of success.

Sincerely,

Elizabeth Joice
Sunrise Mountain High School
Peoria

Well, well, well. Now we get a few details about the performance of this student in class. It is a disgusting state of affairs that this school system compromised everything (letting her graduate) to get these parents off their backs. And the saddest thing is, it teaches kids that there is no justice, no fairness, you can cheat and still win, and you can buy your way out of anything. If I were this teacher, I would be absolutely outraged. I am very glad my younger child is in a charter school. The public schools are too sick.

Janis

I just read some of the posts about this case. There is no excuse for plagerism. That is plain and simple. What we do not know is truly is this a lazy noncaring student or one with perhaps a reading and or writing disability, ADD? It is possible. It is also possible that this student had senioritis and did not care. The parent response is to me irrelevant, bcs there are parent who have their heads in the sand, parents who are struggling, whether it be 3 jobs each to pay bills, serious illness, denial, parents in denial, parents who leave education up to the schools for their child etc.. This student comes with the parents they have got. The teacher did everything possible to work with the young adult, notify parents, gave opportunities. I do not fault the teacher from the info given. I would think an ethical attorney (yes there is such a thing) would not take on a case that had no merit. To be fair to the child, they may not have been showing all of their cards, so we may not have a complete picture of what all of the issues are.

Our world is such now that you do whatever it takes, right or wrong, to get what you want. It’s okay to do anything; hopefully you won’t get caught, and then it really isn’t your fault, it’s because you got caught. What are our kids learning? People are not held accountable for their actions.

Sometimes it does take failure to learn. Not allowing your child to experience failure is a mistake.

When I think of my own failures in life and the paths I took because of them I realize I would not be where I am today if someone just caught me everytime I fell. I would not have learned to be self sufficient.

I think there is a difference between advocacy and being harmfully overprotective.

As someone with many more resources than my parents I often wonder if I am capable of not going overboard in my quest to make sure my kids become great adults.

After all we aren’t raising children we are raising future adults.

Need more lawyers like this one.

Uh, osinski, you might just want to read the teacher’s response before you make that assumption!

Janis

http://forums.weta.org/ldonline/phorum/read.php?f=8&i=9551&t=9502

It’s a well written letter, no doubt. Clearly, there are at least two sides to every story. Given my experience with 1,2,3,4,5 different schools, I admit to bias against the public school system.

Should a scoreof 57 on an English final be the determining factor in whether a senior graduates with her class? I don’t know if I would want this teacher making her higher moral stand with my child, given the same circumstances. And, I do believe her criteria for gauging other students should be subject to scrutiny. Perhaps there is a personal grudge against this girl for some reason.

We all know there are PLENTY of students who should fail if this same criteria is evenly applied, and yet, they don’t. Why? Singling out this one as the scapegoat isn’t all that noble either.

You know what Linda,this IS an awsome comment. I agree with this holeheartedly. Thank you so much for bringing this up,because for the life of me I couldn’t figure out,what bugged me about this until now. Also a good point is from Tired MOM,because who is really to blame in this particular situation,I mean why can’t all play some small role?

But this is IT! It really is all about learning isn’t it?. Even when it is learning from your mistakes, but everyone who shares the blame,learns.Thanks:-)

SAR posted the link to the teacher’s letter,this is where I found the atty’s letter.

I just choose to paste the whole letter,then to write an web address,don’t know why,it seems easier to me.

FYI, Shannon posted the text of the teacher’ letter in the section within this thread called Any Comments? on 6-17.