Behavior v. LD problems

Stop tutoring children.

Talk about a minefield. People tend not to welcome advise unless asked for and readily brush off unsought opinions. Your words would fall on deaf ears unless you were a master of tact. Indeed, as you are young and without children yourself, parents would probably be particularly unreceptive to your opinion as to how they raise their children.

Being nasty and a lack of manners are often two different things. A child without manners is unpolished. A nasty child is angry, often neglected. The dynamics of a family are a powerful force and if the family neglects the child that’s sadly hard to do much about. As you deem these kids nasty and you have the insight to see what makes them that way, you clearly understand the difference and the sad circumstances that create the unhappiness and anger of the children.

Whoa there!

I think she’s absolutely right to refuse to work with children who are not well-behaved, even if those children want and need academic help.

Behavior in children is, sadly, not what it ought to be. This is not an LD or non-LD issue — some parent will always be able to excuse bad behavior and some parents tolerate none of it. Some children are angels despite their parents and some families are joys all around.

If I were Carina, I would only tutor students that I had met and whose parents I knew. Some tutoring programs won’t let you select your “tutee,” so maybe you’d be better off on your own as a free-lance tutor.

A good tutor is hard to find and I wouldn’t want a few bad experiences to remove you from those who need this sort of help.

You’re right though, behavior is imbued with values and choices that are the parents’ to make. Even if they make the wrong ones. It’s a shame that parents don’t realize how not curbing bad behavior penalizes their children, but if the parents didn’t do their job, you just can’t. Keep your distance and vent to your mom later. As a teacher, she should know exactly where you’re coming from (although if her school was private, they likely weeded out all these folks — lucky her!).

I have a couple of thoughts about your post. First, I know a number of LD children, and most of the ones I know are NOT bad mannered or “nasty” although a couple of them with more severe disorders can certainly be challenging! If you are running into “a lot” of children who are, I wonder about your approach to these children. Very often the behavior of children is a reflection of or reaction to the adults they are with.

Second, please remember that if these kids were easy to teach, they wouldn’t be considered “LD”. If you are using the same methods that they are already not succeeding with at school, a lot of what you may see is frustration that they are STILL not “getting it”. Many LD kids are so overwhelmed with school, that tutoring can feel like added torture to them more than help. Sometimes it might make sense to slow down and take the time just to establish a good relationship with these kids before you try too hard to “fix” their academic weaknesses.

Third, do you know what the exact LD issues are with these kids? A child who is dyslexic might react completely differently to a request than an Asperger’s or NLD child. As the parent of an NLD child I can tell you that these kids are very, very literal and rule driven. More often than not, if you find yourself butting heads with them, you need to be the one to back off and try to figure out what they have misunderstood. Clarify the area of misunderstanding, and the seemingly “obstinate” behavior miraculously evaporates. I’ve seen seasoned teachers with years of experience fall into this trap with my son.

An important part of tutoring an NLD or Asperger’s child might very well be to help them learn more socially acceptable ways of communicating. I would hope that parents would share this information with you, but lots of parents don’t understand the significance on non-verbal learning disabilities either.

Finally, if you have taken all of the above into account, and you really feel that you have these bases covered, I agree with you. There’s _no_ reason that you should have to work with kids who you don’t get along with. It doesn’t really matter whose fault it is; it’s not fair to you or the child. You have every right to enjoy and feel satisfied with your work, and the child will be better served by someone who can deal with him more effectively.

Karen

I have seen some children with LD who also have ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) or IED (intermittent explosive disorder). It would be impossible to know without a thorough psychological evaluation and a case history. The parents may not know themselves or they just may regard the child as difficult. From your perspective, it wouldn’t make a difference because the behavior you experience could be the same whether or not they have either additional condition.

Perhaps ODD and IED are constant in our society over time, but I think that children spend a lot less time with their parents or adult authority figures than they used to, so that may account for children not being better able to pattern and model correct behavior. It’s unfortunate, because LD kids can be unfairly labeled as troublemakers.

A lot of a teacher’s job can involve enforcing consistent rules and this is difficult if the rules at home and in the school are different.

[I can think of a sad case where a boy’s father was in prison and his mother had violent boyfriends in the house and did drugs — the child was just not prepared for school, which has become a less rule-driven place than it was decdades ago. His problems were not just academic and not easily solved. I wish that children didn’t have to carry their parents’ burdens, but they do even though they are the least well-equiped to do so.]

I find this a very interesting post,and complicated too. Yes,kids in general lack manners today. You have the right to expect them to be respectful and present good manners while you are tutoring them. This would be an investment of time on your part,due to the poor social skills that make up most LD profiles.Yes,you would have to spend sometime with social skills training,but this is an area that needs to be taught , through out their day. Not just by you,but by everyone in contact with the child. I am a parent of two ADHD/LD boys. One would be very respectful,the other? Well,he probably wouldn’t be. He has extremely poor social skills,high frustration levels,and tends to be much more defiant than his brother. The goal for him,is; learning to take responsibility for himself. If he has shown poor manners,there are consequences for that. I as his parent,had to learn that I was not responsible for his behavior,he was. These kids are hard enough to raise,than to shoulder all of their behavior, as being a direct reflection of my parenting. It’s has been a slow process,he is doing much better. Basicly if he is hurt,he wants to hurt others. It took his teacher,setting limits that did not change,realizing any change throws him for a while,and I his parent not bailing him out. It’s a slow tedious process,it involves the child,teacher,and parent. Notice the child is first on the list? If you have a student for tutoring who has not recieved the help they have needed,and not recieved it for literally years,then they won’t be pleasant,sorry to say. It would take a long time before they apprecitae your help.I know what yopur saying is much more than just being pleasant,but manners can be an expectation,and you can make this clear to parent and student before even starting. But look closely at what your getting. Is the attitude,”oh,well.. I am good at being Bad”. or is it,”damn if I’m not having to go to tutoring now,it waas bad enough trying to stay up with the class,getting homework done,but NOW! I have to sit with this person and be tutored some more.AND still I don’t know how to do it”! My kid would feel this way,but I can assure you he has been taught manners.

i have an 8yr old that has tourettes, ocd, add,capd,nvld,and the deadly odd. thank God they are fairly mild, he’s not had to be hospitalized yet. but it has taken a toll on all the family. he is delightful most of the time. right now we cannot find a school for him. i am looking for a small classroom and a teacher willing to redirect him a lot and also help with impulsive behavior..like instead of going to bathroom with all the kids—go alone; recess where he gets in most of trouble touching, hugging,grabbing kids.. extra monitor or have him play on computer. but no, they will not make any concessions. when he gets frustrated and over stimulated he becomes defensive and aggitated. he has been taught over and over what is appropiate and what is not. i am involved as much as i can. we see lots of doctors and therapists. so i agree, i am tired of people especially teachers saying they are aware of all his problems he is battling but still expect the same behavior as the kids with no disablities. i see how hard he tries. i can’t imagine battling all that and trying to fit in , handle the rejection from the kids and teachers.. he has my respect and support. i just wish i could find a teacher willing to help us. now a days nobody wants to go out of their way. dope them up, throw them out of school if you have to go out of your way for them.

I have to say I saw “red” when I first read this post — and my reply reflects that. I should have waited and thought out a better reply.

It is just so frustrating to be doing all you can (as a parent) and more and still have people who blame your parenting skills. I believe it would be a safe assumption that the parents of the child is doing whatever they can too — after all they are paying to have the child tutored.

Try talking with the parents (use tact, we do come out fighting when it comes to our children), I am sure they would do every thing they can possibly do to help your tutoring session be more productive.

I think that you show one side of the problem on the original post. There are some children who just can’t get it together all the time. They have been taught what to do and want to conform to what they have been taught but somehow their behavior gets away from them. Unfortunately, that is just the way that some people are wired. Sometimes, these slips just can’t be helped. One of the best skills to give these people is the ability to read cues that they’ve been out of line (or to have people around them to let them know this). When the slips happen, the slippee usually is able to repair the damage (to teachers, siblings, friends, etc.) by acknowledging that what they did was hurtful-out-of-line, etc. and to say “I’m sorry.” You would be amazed at how much something like this means to the person hearing it.

The other side of the post seems to be children who are acting out some sort of aggression or simply not knowing how to act. Perhaps this is the sort of thing where the LD can be used to avoid addressing sensitive issues that are harder to fix?

The LD world is frustrating and not every person wants to work it (low pay, crazy conditions, always seeming to be the “bad cop,” etc.). There is a lot of baggage floating around, and some people can get knocked over by it. For people who can take a few knocks and still come back to fight the good fight, kudos to you.

I feel you are more nasty by referring to LD children as nasty. It is not fair on your part to call them so, as u have said u enjoy helping others to learn. Further, all children are nasty in some way or other, & as teachers or tutors it is our duty to mould them. If u had decided to tutor LD children,u should have known that u might face some behavior problems also.
I feel u have chosen the wrong type of job,& u are totally unfit to tutor these innocent children.
Anybody choosing to work with children should be patient & understanding,& more so if dealing with LD children.
Wish u good luck.

It is never right to be assaulted on the job. Or to have to work around those who assault others.

If any other worker were to be assaulted on the job, that person would likely be able to retire rich in an instant (or at least a lawsuit).

Understanding has its limits, which I would draw at being assaulted or screamed at.

How can you confuse hitting and peeing on things with “innocent” children?

Hitting is wrong. Peeing on things is usually a sign of psychological problems.

Your kids must be a treat to teach. I feel sorry for their classmates and teachers.

I was just passing by and happened click on your heading because I am in tutoring an LD student who has behavior issues as well. I am also in grad school but I am tutoring in order to fulfill requirements. My heart goes out to you as well as to these kids. What kinds of schools do they attend? They should be getting some sort of counseling. It seems to me that someone needs to take charge and address these problems as the separate issues that they are. Can you speak to someone in the school? What do their parents say? I hope you can address these difficulties in some way. These kids are likely only to develop even worse habits than they already have.

This is quite an interesting thread to read. I have taught in a small town for 20 years. If I were to look at the percentage of kids with LD that also have some behavior problems of some kind, I would have to say it would run close to 80%. I would estimate that about 2/3 of these kids do come from teenage mother, broken homes, or troubled homes. In a small town it is easy to see what is happening to these kids. I have taught Sp. Ed. and in the regular classroom. It is so true that at times these kids just aren’t ready to learn; they have so much going on. I have often felt very inadequate as a teacher because I am by no means a counselor. I will not tolerate disrespectfulness to other students or myself though. At times I know there is something else going on and words come out, but just accepting behaviors because that is part of them in not acceptable.

I have some education experience and some experience in the criminal justice arena where I have to review psychiatric / medical evaluations of defendants and criminals to help assess their dangerousness and which meds they can take legally.

In my mind, there are two types of LD kids: those with just LD issues and those where there’s something else going on.

One of the worse cases I remember (from school) is a smart boy. Dad was in jail, boy set fires, mom had lots of issues w/ work and picking bad men. The boy had ADD (probably ADHD) and was very violent towards other children and teachers. What was going on with him was more than a school could fix and without fixing the baggage, school would ways be a challenge (not necessarily an academic challenge).

A lot of the criminal justice people (defendants, parolees, probationers, convicts) also have some LD issues and baggage that never got fixed.

What I worry about with some of the children that are discussed here is that they get so used to not having limits or not having the skills to control their bahavior that they are likely to have sever problems down the road, especially if they have any substance abuse problems or mental illness. [And victims usually don’t care whether a defendant had LD, a bad home life, etc. All they know is that they’ve been attached, abused, robbed, or otherwise hurt.]

I don’t see as many girls, but their bad outcomes are more economic, abuse, not finishing school, and having children in unstable homes. It’s more of a self-destruction.

While seeming to be strict with LD children may appear to be cold and uncaring to those with significant damage or baggage, perhaps it could be looked at as a way to prevent greater harms and worse outcomes for them.

>> While seeming to be strict with LD children may appear to be cold and uncaring to those with significant damage or baggage, perhaps it could be looked at as a way to prevent greater harms and worse outcomes for them. <<

I doubt anyone here thinks that people, teachers or parents, should let LD children (or any others) get away with things. Most kids do best with firm limits, and LD kids probably moreso. That’s all the more reason to work HARD to change these behaviors rather than give up on teaching them, however.

Karen

Think about it in terms of INSIGHT, POWER and AUTHORITY.

Parents have AUTHORITY over their children. Parents who do not have the POWER to control their children still have the AUTHORITY to make their children see a professional who may have the POWER to change the children’s behavior. The parents may not have enough INSIGHT to know when this intervention is needed.

A psychiatrist may have the INSIGHT and the POWER to change the children’s behavior, but does not have the AUTHORITY to do so unless the parents consent.

The children may not have either the INSIGHT or the POWER to change their behavior.

You have the INSIGHT but not the POWER or the AUTHORITY that you would need to get the needed changes.

At this point, think of the AA serenity prayer: you just have to accept that this is something that you cannot change, even though you want change to happen for the child’s sake.