pre & post test WIAT & WISC - who determines progres

Information: 8 to 14
Similarities: 11 to 11
Arithmetic: 10 to 7
Vocabulary: 13 to 11
Comprehension: 17 to 13
Digit Span: 5 to 8
Picture Completion: 8 to 12
Coding 9 to 11
Picture Arrangement: 4 to 10
Block Design: 6 to 10
Object Assembly: 11 to 11
Symbol search: 12 to 7

VSIQ: 111 to 107
PSIQ: 84 to 106
FSIQ: 98 to 107

Verbal comp: 113 to 113
Perceptual Org: 85 to 105
Freedom from dist: 87 to 87
Processing speed: 104 to 96

So, many more things went up on WISC than WIAT so what does that mean?

This is my only tip. When we had our last meeting regarding one of my siblings, it was attended by our special ed atty. They kept insisting that he was making progress and at the very least staying with the curriculum.

The reason they balk at using test scores is becuase in court that is the only way for an atty to show that no progress was made!! That is why the school doesn’t want to use them. My school district likes to use test scores and personal observation. The atty explained that any teacher can say “Sure, student X is making fantastic progress!!”

I understand that progress in the classroom is also a good measure of how your child is progressing but the test scores do not lie!

My only tip, suggestions, or reasoning!!

K.

If all the WIAT scores are listed as standard scores, except for spelling, they are all in the average range(90-110) both the old and new ones. The WISC scores are also in the average range, in fact the FS IQ went up, and are not supposed to change much as the child gets older, unless something neurological has occured. I think the issue is proving LACK of progress(ie ineffective IEP) by showing that achievement scores DECLINED, not that the program is ineffective because scores did not rise. For many students, they just stay in the average range; yes scores go up and down a bit(remember testing is a snap shot in time), but much stays the same. That’s not to say if you are concerned you shouldn’t have a psychologist take a look at these scores to see if the changes are statistically significant, and make recommendations. Another thing to look at are the child’s grades, and standardized testing given as a group in school.

The spelling drop — that’s significant but it’s specific. THose 1-3 point drops, though, are well within the normal day-to-day variation. I’m afraid those numbers say that this kiddo, in general, is in the same place in the pack as he was when he started — which means that he has made progress, since the pack has been moving forward. The percentiles probably show a similar profile — below average, but that’s where they started, right? Again, he’s in the same place in the pack — and the pack has been making progress. Spelling, unfortunately, isn’t going to be considered important enough to make a big deal of. (The fact that it can be the red flag for a bigger problem is another story .)

Now those WISC scores jumping all over the place are very unusual — but in an argument of “progress/no progress” they don’t help because they indicate the raw material that the school’s supposed to turn into the progress and achievement. There’s no clear gap (much less a widening “no progress” one) between potential and achievement.

I’m NOT saying the school’s been doing a fine job and what are you complaining about — just that the scores don’t prove otherwise.

I think the other thing to keep in mind is that the implications of having a standard score of 90 in second grade is different than in fifth grade. The weaker students don’t look as weak in second grade as they do in fifth grade. What you and he may experience on a day to day basis may be this rather than an actual decline in academic achievement relative to other students.
Beth

Thanks for your response. Before I had the post-test scores, I tried to bring in the stanford 9 scores that we take every year. He continues to fall in the 1st thru 10th percentile locally (meaning in his classroom, he is swimming with sharks) since 1st grade. They say they don’t really look at those scores. I don’t know how they can be ignored. He is failing is his classroom year after year and his self esteem has taken a huge hit. They say they can’t do anything about that, it has to be taken care of by an outside pyschologist. The pyschologist says that if he had an appropriate situation at school, he would not be in therapy.

I am also not sure how 90-110 is average. When converted to percentiles he is still below the 50th. When given his ability scores, would you say that the achievement scores should be higher than they are?

“Average” is usually considered to be 25-75%. There is no doubt that this is a huge range and that those at the upper end of “average” have a much easier time than those at the bottom end. My son scored 30% on standardized tests recently and he was considered “average”. Now watch him in the classroom and he is not “average”.

So I am not saying this works well but just how it is.

Beth

Look at LD in Depth on this site and click on Assessment and read the articles by Pete Wright on testing and measurement to review standard scores and percentiles.

The article SAR refers to is very good but fairly long. Here is the information most relevant to you.

* A standard score of 90 is at the 25% level. A standard score of 110 is at the 75% level.
* One half of all children fall between the 75% level and 25% level. (75-25 = 50)
* One half of all children achieve standard scores between 90 to 110.
* A percentile rank score between 25% and 75% is the same as a standard score of between 90 to 110 – and are usually considered to be within the “average range.”

What does it mean when I child falls within the normal limits?

Do they need extra help? Can they still be classified as LD?

My sister had the Woodcock Johnson and scoreed within the normal range (85-115) However, she still has incredibly difficulty, especially reading. I don’t completely understand the testing either. If she can’t read to me, how did she score so well??

K.

To K-the average range of 90-110 is for IQ; the average range of 25-75 percentile covers a lot of ground, and yes we all have strengths and weaknesses, even without a diagnosis of LD. States have set very specific rules about the diagnosis of LD in order to justify services. In regular education not all students function the same, and some need help in one area or another to succeed…in our school system, for example, reading remediation is in regular education and is being beefed up because in Mass. we just got the results of the 3rd grade standardized state testing(MCAS) in reading.

Exactly. Many children fall in a below aveage range and need tutoring but will NOT fall low enough to be classified special education.

Janis

I was reading your questions regarding WISC and WIAT scores and I think I can be of some assistance. I am currently working on my doctorate in school pscyhology and studying these very instruments at this time. The important thing to know here is that these instruments are not intended to be pre- and post-test measures. The WISC, for example, produces an “IQ” score which is not supposed to change very much throughout the life span. If, for example, your child had a full scale IQ of 95 in third grade, chances are he or she would again achieve an IQ score of around 95 at age 35. (“Average” scores fall within the range of 85 to 115). The WIAT assesses academic skills and compares these skills to other children in the same age group who have taken the test before. Having similar scores (within about 10-15 points) in 1999 and again in 2002 simply suggests that your child is progressing at about the same rate as other children his or her age. There does appear to be a significant improvement in the area of math (a change of 17 points) and a significant drop in performance in the area of spelling (a 20 point difference), but the other score differences could be due entirely to insignificant statistical variance (happens simply by chance). But again, these scores were never intended to be accurate pre- and post-test measures, so take this with a grain of salt! If you want real pre- and post-test measures, ask your school about “curriculum-based assessment,” where the school pscyhologist or teacher can track your child’s performance on the actual curriculum that is used in the classroom. This will really get at how well your child is performing on a day-to-day basis. The results of curriculum-based assessment are also more meaningful; for example, this will tell you how many words per minute your child can read using his or her classroom materials. On measures such as these, you can track real progress.

Aren’t curriculum based assessments more subject to problems?

From a legal standpoint an attorney can not use a curriculum based assessment, he can only used the percentile ranks and standard scores? As it was explained to me,the scores ARE ways to measure progress.

My brother receieved the Woodcock Johnson and slightly over one year later received it again. Some scores stayed the same and some dropped, according to the speical ed atty this is how progress is measured. We were told the school likes to use a curriculum based assessment, tests scores, observation, etc, because they can easily show that a child is making progress. The parents can simply be shown work and test that were completed with satisfactory grades.

I spoke with a Neuropsychologist who was the head of the neuropsychology department at Harvard, and she said that these test can measure progress and help determine the true picture of what is going on!

K.

If you are in Massachusetts, the MCAS tests, given since 1998, are the gold standard of high-stakes curriculum-based measures of student progress(in public school in Mass.). The WJ III(and WIAT) is a diagnostic test, I believe, but doesn’t measure specific academic progress as a student marches through the years of school.

I wasn’t aware that the MCAS is the standard. I understand it’s importants but it really doesn’t provide an accurate picture of the difficutlies a child is having.

My sister received all Needs Improvements and she then only passed her classes with all D’s.

K.

Brandon,

I appreciate your response but am now totally confused. What purpose would there be to repeat these tests every three years other than to compare the scores? Also, when cases go to due process, the WIAT are the scores they compare and plot out on the Bell Curve. Given that these tests are well known and from my understanding the most accurate measure we have.

I’ve tried to get them to use curriculum based assessments for review of progress on the IEP. Instead they insist that this is not an accurate measure. So they go with teacher observation; which I argue is totally subjective. What teacher is not going to say that the child is progressing under their direction?

I’ve tried using his standardized test scores to show the rate of progress. It is the same test administered year after year, so the scores can be compared. They won’t consider those either. “Not an accurate picture.”

I want facts. Test scores to help me determine how well he is doing. With all due respect, I am getting fed up with hearing that every thing I want to use to measure my child’s progress is “not an accurate measure” or “not intended to be used this way.”

There must be a purpose to repeating these tests. So what am I not understanding here?

I agree K. This is what I have been told as well. I’m just not understanding what Brandon is saying. It just goes against everything I’ve been told so far.

If you are asking has your child achieved according to his past patterns and cognitive potential, you can try to answer using the scores you posted above(see Sue J.’s response); however, most parents want to know how their child is doing in their particular school system’s curriculum …that’s where curriculum based measures come in and are useful. The idea that every up and down of a few points is significant is not true; that’s where having testing reviewed by a psychologist(although I understand your bad experience) is helpful. Also, there are MANY other factors that influence school success, including anxiety, depression and ADHD…these are best assessed outside the school system, I think. As a family we decided to only use outside tutoring, and it was the right decision for my son, but only you can decide what will work in your situation, and how much energy you can spend fighting the school system. Good Luck.