qualifying for spec. ed . in New York

Karen, in Florida, where I’m at, it’s the spread between SS score/performance and full scale IQ. There has to be 15 pts. in elementary and I think it goes to about 22 pts. between in middle school, but that I’m not sure of. Different states have different criteria. There may be someone on the board who is from NY who can answer more specifically.

Karen,
Access the New York Department of Education website and look around for the topic of Special Education. Most states have a section for their regulations. This will let you know the criteria for eligiblity in the various exceptionalities along with all the regulations in sped. If the website does not contain this information, call the N.Y. Dept. of Ed. and ask that they mail you a copy. Hope this helps.

Found the web page, but of course its off line today!

All I could find on the NY website as far as eligibility was that a learning disability was defined as a discrepancy of at least 50% between expected achievement and actual achievement. Translation please?!?!?!

IDEA states that there must be a discrepancy between ability and achievement. In Georgia, where I am at, that discrepancy is 20pts for an initial eligbility and 15pts there after. Each state interprets the law differently. Expected achivement is going to be the FSIQ and actual achievement is the standard scores. I know that doesn’t completely answer your question, but I hope it is at least a start.

Laurie

Go to LD In Depth at the top of page and select it. Then click on Assessment.
Click on the article by Pete Wright, “Understanding Test and Measuements”. This is a must read but click on the section Understanding Test Data. You will see a chart of standard scores with corresponding %. Each standard score matches to a %. If the child’s full-scale IQ is 120 then they are at 98%. If there has to be more then 50% difference; 98-50 = 48%. A 48% maps to a standard score of about 89. You would then look at all achievement test standard scores for scores beneath that for a discrepancy. Subtest socres are represented differently and are also on the chart showing the corresponding % tile.

Helen

Actually the achievement and the FSIQ are only the same when they are both 100- on either side of that most states require that some regression formula be applied. It has to do with making the norming samples match up and is strictly a statistical thing. The farther away from the mean you are- like the gifted student of the student with severe cognitive delays- the farther away your predicted achievement is from your FSIQ.

Robin

Laurie is pretty close in her explanation- I am not sure what NY numbers are for eligibility but generally speaking the rule is a 1.5 standard deviation between FSIQ and Achievement in one of the target areas to establish the presence of a specific learning disability. Depending on who you are talking to and what tests you are using, and whether they use the regression formula properly this can be anywhere from 15 points to 22.5 points.

Robin

Didn’t want to confuse you.

Helen

If there is a confusing underhanded way of doing things, leave it to the NYS Dept. of Education to do it. NY is a toilet.

Well, I happen to love where I live, but I can’ t speak to the quality or lack thereof of the school system. My son is currently in private school because the public schools are so overcrowded , that even before we knew he was LD, we knew he’d never make it.

Thanks to all of you for trying to explain this. I’m pretty good at math, just not clear on which tests are used. So I’m assuming that the Woodcock achievement scores I have would do the trick. But do I look at norms based on grade, or norms based on age. ?

I also have the WIAT, and for example, his lowest scores were 91 for reading (27th percentile) and 94 for reading comp (34 %) . SO let’s say his FSIQ is 103, or 58th percentile. Then we’d need scores below 29th percentile in order to qualify?

That’s amazing. Because of course his FSIQ is way depressed due to graphomotor problems and doesn’t begin to represent his actual intellectual potential (which the evaluator describes as superior) . So then the disability has to be that much worse in order to qualify. If his reading was slightly better he might not qualify as learning disabled?

Wow, no wonder so many of you are upset with the public schools.

Please let me know if I’m not looking at this properly. THANKS

This is the info I have been search all over God’s green earth for. Does anyone know what the elibility discrepency is for Illinois. Its not on their website.

Also, what is a target area, would that mean reading, math, spelling? So then they are only LD (according to the school) in that area that falls below the decrepency thing?

If the FSIQ is 103, or 58th percentile then if the descrepancy has to be 50% then 58%-50% = 8% which is really low. This makes you wonder how anyone in NY qualifies for LD services. If there is graphomotor problems then many school districts will use the VIQ instead.

A 50% descrepancy would mean that if the child had an IQ of 100 at 50% tile then they would have to school at 0% to qualify. This is hard to believe.

Helen

1.5 standard deviations is the standard around the country. So a difference of somewhere between 15 and 22.5 points between achievement and IQ. Your district should be able to tell you- in Vermont it varies between 18 and 22.

The magic categories for a eligibility are:

1.Specific Learning Disability in:
Oral Expression, Listening Comprehension, Written Expression, Basic Reading Skills, Reading Comprehension, Math Calculation, Math Reasoning

2. Learning Impairment(substantial cognitive and adaptive delays)

3. Visual Impairment(acuity 20/70 or peripheral field of 20’ or less)

4. Deafness or Hard of Hearing

5.Speech and Language Impaired (2 standard deviations in one of a set of prescribed areas)

6. Orthopedic Impairment

7. Other Health Impairment

8. Emotional Disturbance

9. Autism Spectrum

10. Traumatic Brain Injury

11. Deaf/Blind

12. Multiple Disabilities

This is right out of the published state regs. and is derived right from the federal law. trhe difference is only in how different areas interpret the statistical stuff. From what I remember about your son’s scores Lulu it did not seem that the discrepency between his achievement and his IQ was that great- not to say that he is having a tough time but just that he may not make the standard under the law. This isn’t necessarily the school’s fault- it is the way the regs are written.

Robin

Hi everyone,

The discrepancy has to be 20 pts between IQ and achievement. This is also one of the main areas that may be changed because it has been recommended by the committee that is reworking IDEA. This is a good thing because we have known for years that it is meaningless. What this means is that let’s say that a kid has an IQ of 100. If the scores in the educational testing are 80 or below, he or she qualifies for sped services. But if his IQ is 80 and the tests are around 80 to 65, he doesn’t qualify. At this time, this is a federal rule, not a state rule. Look into it and get an advocate if you have trouble.

The discrepancy factor has nothing to do with the schools. It is in the federal guidelines.

Right, Robin, and if intervention works, then the performance goes up then if they are no longer 15 -22 pts. they are no longer considered LD by the school - which doesn’t mean they won’t still struggle some and need intervention. I

Talk to other parents of kids with LD to see WHAT you are qualifying for….if the services are poor quality or aimed at students with multiple problems(common grouping are LD, and kids with ADHD, behavior issues…) not just intensively teaching reading, you might not want to pursue public school services.

My son, in Mass., did NOT qualify based on the definition of severe discepancy, with a superior IQ and achievement in the low-average/average(99-100’s) range. It has worked out much better to get services outside the system for him. Our elementary system uses inclusion, and has a generic Resource Room at the middle school level that is largely boys with behavior and ADHD issues, no real remediation in reading and math for very bright kids.

Well at least I feel more confident about the fact that my son is in private school - I’d been wondering if it wouldn’t be better for him to be in public where services could be integrated into his day. But apparently he barely qualifies if at all.

Thanks for all the info. Once again you have all helped tremendously!!

I am talking to special ed head today(shes been out of town)about testing ds ASAP. Hes already in the system from IN and I suspect this 3 yr retesting may bump him out(except speech-I think hes assured a spot there)

And I am not all too upset about it-kind of ‘six of one, half dozen of the other’ reaction.

I truly do suggest you visit the ld classes and resource rooms and see if you feel your child would be best placed there before you become super involved in advocating for him.

Like the behavior probs in mid school mentionned in the above post, it too may be filled with kids so unlike your son he will get no more, if not less, help than in the regular classroom. No, its not right or fair but….check it out it in person this fall so you can be sure. It wasnt what I thought it would be, but maybe yours will be. Or maybe my new school here will different. Or maybe itll be the same.

The tutorial resource my son was in was focused on helping kids with work they hadnt completed and all kids, exc ds, always had plenty. He is quick, just not accurate or comprehending. So he often ended up practicing his weekly spelling list, nothing more.

How about in Massachusetts, is the same formula used? There is a fifteen point discrepency between the IQ ‘s on my son’s testing, which some say indicates problems while others don’t, verbal 90 and performance 105??

Then on my brothers verbal is 81 and performance is 77? However, he has incredible subtest scatter. I was also told by someone can’t remember, that children with CAPD tend to have lower IQ scores.

I am kind of confused??

Thanks
K.

The description of SLD and severe discrepancy is on the DOE web-site. The discrepancy is is NOT between V and P IQ, it is between IQ(however it is measured) and achievement. You need to discuss your brother’s IQ and it’s implications for special ed. services and reading remediation with a psychologist; did the school hold a transitional IEP meeting that your brother attended(they should if he’s 14yo)? At such a meeting, you all could come to an understanding of his needs and it would allow him to feel like he’s in the driver’s seat also.

No they didn’t have a transitional meeting. His achievement was measured with the Woodcock Johnson and is IQ with the WISC. I don’t understand how they two are compared, they seem completely different??

My son wasn’t really given an achievement test, he was given the Brigance, which I only received age equivalents scores for, no standard scores or percentile ranks. The tester also tested fine and gross motors skills, which I know understand should be done with and OT eval not by a special ed teacher? At any rate I am confused.

Also, my sister never recieved an IQ test, just woodcock johnson and speech and lang, how can the school determine services??

Thanks
K.

Woodcock Johnson and Wisc IQ test are completely different. The IQ test is supposed to measure potential—what theoretically a person is able to achieve. The Woodcock Johnson measures achievement—what the person is actually achieves at one point in time. A learning disability is defined as a difference between the two–theoretically the two should be equal. A learning disability means that your IQ (potential) is much greater than your achievement (Woodcock Johnson).

The verbal and performance measures are different aspects of intelligence. Your son’s higher performance than verbal means that he is weaker in verbal areas than visual-spatial ones.

Beth

The WJ III measures achievement and the WISC III measures IQ; they both produce standard scores, that can be compared to look for a discepancy. If you are using an advocate to help your brother, that person should be very familiar with IQ scores, and achievement testing; try asking that person for an explanation of your brother’s scores. On this site, look at LD in Depth and click on Assessment and read the article by Pete Wright. The WJ III has a cognitive battery that might have been given to your sister to measure her cognitve abilities, as well as an achievement battery. I would bring all of the questions about testing of your son to the person(s) who did the testing.

With my sister that is a problem. First the person never came to the IEP meeting to explain the testing. Secondly, she told my sister after their first five minute meeting that she was sure there was nothing wrong with my sister, she just need to stay after and work harder. ( It actally says that in the report summary) She is not getting any services and I think she needs them.

She had some subtest scatter on her speech and lang but on the WJ she only scored low on long term retrieval and fluid reasoning. Everything else was within the range of 85-115.

My brothers WJ scores are everywhere, he has a lot of scores that are no where near the normal. The WISC there is not a significant score differential between verbal and performance but the subtest scatter is all over!! He is already getting services, he has been since he was three years old.

K.

I assume your bother has had multiple IQ test and have the scores all been about the same?

A IQ of 80 maps to 9%. If you take the IQ to be valid then one would expect your bother’s acheivment scores to be about the same around 9%. You say there is IQ subtest scatter it would be nice to know what the scores were. It is harder with an IQ of 80 to qualify for services under the classification of LD.

Helen

When we moved from ND to IL in 2000 my oldest son went from NOT qualifying to qualifying. His FSIQ is 95 his achievement tests were spelling 81, math 78, and reading 68. He was was in 7th grade at the time, he was placed in a LD reading class, LD math class, and LD writing class. At the end of 8th grade his math and writing SS vastly improved but his reading remained low compared to ability. He is entering the 9th grade this year and will be taking all regular education classes with a resource room. The goal of the resource room will be to work on study skills and reading skills. He presently reads at a 6th grade level so they think working with him 1 to 1 for this year on reading will help him to catch up. I found it much easier to qualify here then it was in ND. We found ND at least the district we were in to be very closed. For example they told us for our younger son, he is austic therefore retarded. They never IQ tested him. When we got here the school saw a different picture and IQ tested him his VIQ was low at 82 but his performance was 104 and his FSIQ 92. His some of his achievement scores were in the 60’s, he is in a self contained LD class. This has been a very good fit for him and he has made tremendous strides. He can read at almost a 3rd grade reading level and can write a simple paragraph—things he could not do when we got here.

Wisc- done January of 2001
Verbal
Information 9
Similarities 8
Artithemtic 2
Vocabulary 6
Comprehension 3

Performance
Picture Completion 8
Coding 2
Picture Arrangement 5
Block Design 8
Object Assembly 9
Symbol Search 5

CELF done January of 2001
receptive
Concepts and directions ss 6 pr 9
Word Classes ss 5 pr 5
Semantic Relationships ss 8 pr 25
Receptive Lang score 78 pr 7

expressive
Formulating Sentences ss 9 pr 37
Recalling Sentences ss 7 pr 16
Sentence Assembly ss 11pr 63
Expressibe Lang score 94 pr 34

Woodcock johnson- these subtest were done April of this year
SS PR GEquivelant
oral lang 99 48 8.5
oral expression 97 43 7.8
listening comprehension 101 54 9.2

total achievement 77 7 4.2

broad reading 74 4 3.7
broad math 81 10 5.4
broad written lang 70 2 3.6

basic reading skills 68 2 2.7
reading comprehension 85 16 5.0
math calc skills 77 6 5.0
math reasoning 90 26 6.4
basic writing skills 77 6 4.0
written expression 81 10 4.7

academic skills 65 1 3.7
academic fluency 77 6 4.4
academic apps 82 11 4.7
academic knowledge 100 49 8.7
phon/graph know 61 .5 1.6 I assume this is phonemic awareness??
(that actually said point five on the test)

I also have coginitive testing on the woodcock johnson that was done in January of 2001

Hope these test scores give a better understanding.

Thanks
K.

Shay, so is 20 pts. a constant, or does it change according to state and whether you are in elem. or middle school.? I know I don’t have to worry- we’re more like 30+!

Leah, I’m just putting in my two cents worth, but in Georgia the 20pts is a constant from k-12. There is no difference between educational levels.The only difference is that when re-eval time comes then the criteria is only a 15pt discrepancy.

Laurie

K-if these are your brother’s scores and you’re working with an advocate, please sit down and ask the advocate( who probably knows a lot of your brother’s ed. history) what these indicate, and how they influence the educational decisions you have to make. It is very confusing unless you are WELL versed in testing to get bits and pieces of test interpretation from people over the internet…please use the professional advocate first.

I really don’t understand then. The neuropsych and the psychologist say that we need to push for more intensive LD remediation at school and insist on placement in LD classroom. Why would they say that with the same set of scores that you say makes him unqualified now?

It is a constant. I have read Leah’s post where it drops to 15 at re-evaluation, not in the laws at present.

Opps! I meant to say in GA only. Sorry for any confusion. I will say this much, I do hope that the new re-authorization will finally tackly this issue for LD and come up with one formula for all states to follow. Too many times I have had students come to me from other states and either they qualified in their former state but won’t qualify in GA. This is too frustrating!

Laurie

Don’t understand why you won’t tell her what you think? This is exactly the response she is getting from all the other professionals she’s working with, don’t you get that from her posts?

K,

I hope you don’t mind me putting in my unprofessional 2 cents. But as you probably know, there are some serious things going on here. No wonder you are beside yourself with worry! You are right, he is not reading.

Of course I am not an attorney but my gut reaction is due process with this. I’m not sure if you have Pete & Pam Wrights’ books, but if not you need to get them now or at least visit the website.

In relation to several of the cases I have read in there, you are certainly in a position to win placement in a special private school for your brother. It is evident that it should have happened long ago. It is obvious that the school he has attended was not able to provide FAPE and I’m sure they know that.

I don’t mean to be an alarmist, but in his best interest it is time for an attorney, K.

Hi SAR-

You would have had a difficult time proving adverse effect with average range achievement I bet- and check my post in this thread about what happens with regression toward the mean… I know it is frustrating.

Robin

It doesn’t mean he doesn’t need services- just that under the law- it might not be through Special Ed. Regular Ed is also supposed to provide a continuum of services of sorts. I know you said somewhere else that he is already eligible- but that might not have happened in another place. Private practitioners can make all sorts of recommendations- they are not providing the service after all. I have done this myself- even when I know kids aren;t going to make the eligiblity gate with the number stuff. This happens a lot with little guys. They still need the service- it just isn’t provided through SPED. My district and those around me do this- but as I have said before- we appear to be a little weird- in a good way of course.

Robin

There is more to every story than the test scores and I know a professional advocate is already involved…but wanted to ask, does your brother intend to graduate with a hs diploma? Will he be able to pass the 10th grade MCAS? Did he pass the 4th-8th grade MCAS? Has the school offered him MCAS tutoring? He should be present at the IEP meeting, because without his motivation, these things may not happen, and a certificate of completion is a dead end compared to a hs diploma.

The saddest part is that we hired an atty and found out he is a big wig in our community. He turned out to be useless.

He said that we should take the IEP as is. It is the exact same one he has had for three years. We should take it becuase if we make too much of a stink the vocational school will turn him away andforce him back to public school. I tried to explain his reading scores were at the third grade level, citing a test he has received, he didn’t know what I was talking about. I also mentioned that if we didn’t write in some kind of Wilson description (even though I know think that Wilson is not right for him) he won’t get any reading help. The atty said that we should take the IEP, let him go to the Voke school for the first semester, 3-4 months, and then have an IEP meeting and ask my brother, how does he think he is doing?? WHAT, sure great idea smarty pants, don’t go to the school ahead of time, don’t make sure his accomodations are being met, let him go from June to December with no reading program. I really wanted to say thanks for taking our money, I hope it at least covered your car payment!!

I guess I need to try and find another atty, the problem is my family is broke, I am also afraid that he is right, if my brother gets sent back to public school, it will be miserable. I don’t know, he needs some pretty intensive work, but Idon’t know what to do.

Should I just add stuff into the IEP myself?

Also, certain members of my family, one parent in particular, think the whole send him to school and let him fend for himself for 3 or 4 months is a fine idea!! This parent doesn’t like to hear that they are wrong and thinks they know best. Even though I am the one doing the research and the posting, and the phone calls, etc etc etc, so I am battling everywhere!!

He did not take the MCAS in 8th grade and I believe did not pass in 4th grade. The school has not offered MCAS tutoring, they are excited to see him leaving their district.

I am hoping that he will receive accomodations for the MCAS according the Dept of Ed accomodations are available, including submitting a portfolio.

I think if he receives some instesive reading, academic assistance, and test accomodations he will do ok. Since you only need a “needs improvment” to pass. However, that is part of the reason I posted his test scores.

I sent them to the advocate but she will take a long time to answer me, she is incredibly busy, she is the only adovate in my area. I know that many professionals post here and thought they could give me more insight into what type of programs and help he needs.

Also, after the disastrous phone conversation with the atty and the fact that I am supposed to return the IEP next week, I need help, big time!!

I can’t let him walk into the vocational school with an IEP that looks like it does, he won’t get any help.

Thanks
K.

.

I too am just a parent but I am not sure you have a legal case here. Your brothers reading level (SS 74) isn’t that far off from his IQ. This isn’t too say he couldn’t be taught to read closer to grade level.

I have a good friend whose daughter has an IQ in the high 70s. With lots of intervention, she now can read at a 6th grade level. She made a lot of progress for awhile but hasn’t moved in two years. Now 6th grade is certainly much better than 3.7 but that may be more what you are looking at rather than catching up, especially if, like my friend’s child, there are processing issues too.

Beth

How did your brother NOT take the MCAS in 8th grade, it’s required; the accomodations on MCAS are directly related to the accomodations outlined on a student’s IEP; how is your brother classified? If your advocate is away, let the school district know that you need more time. The MCAS issue is a BIG deal for students like your brother; not getting a diploma can change his options for the future. In the scores that you posted there is NOT a severe discepancy(in my view) between his cognitive ability and his overall achievement scores, I wonder how the advocate and the school were going to classify your brother for an IEP; now the school IEP team in Mass. MUST assign a diagnosis for services to be given(see the DOE website)…this should have been discussed at the IEP meeting. At the very least make sure the accomodations for MCAS testing are on the IEP, you cannot just request them out of the blue.

He was out of school for the last 4 months of his 6th grade year with mono. The school provided a daily tutor. That is when he was supposed to take the MCAS. He did take them the end of this year with accomodations.

According to his IEP he is to get extra time to complete, (which he did, he took them in the sped room), material read aloud ( not sure and he isn’t home to ask) and use of caclulator. I am not sure what else is allowed by law. We also don’tknow if he passed yet because the scores have not been released.

I tried to find the flow chart used to determine his eligibility but couldn’t. I believe if memory serves me, he is classified specific learning disability and communication. He is on an IEP now and has been since preschool. He has always recevied reading help and speech and lang, they just haven’t been very efffective.

For a very long time my parents assumed that the school knew best and never questioned them. I can understand how it happened becuase the SLP who helped him from K to 4th is very touchy when she is confronted with new information. My Mom, who don’t get me wrong I love dearly, is not very good at speaking up. I am dealing with the same SLP now for my son and she is incredibly nice but gets easily frustrated, even with the kids. That is part of the reason I am trying to get private speech and lang.

Anyhow, It wasn’t until the adovcate reveiwed his testing and we had the CAPD eval done, did we determine he wasn’t getting enough of the right services. He has only had speech and lang 30 min for 3 years. The SLP said herself in a meeting that if she retested my brother now, a year later, there would be no significant improvment. Not very re-assuring. The reading teacher did the best she could considering he wasn’t getting any accomodations in the regular ed classroom. It was hard for him to transfer the Wilson into it.

Thanks
K.