new thread for Rolls Royce

Just to add irony to the thread…

When we were fighting with our district for a FAPE, we worked a deal where we paid part and I worked off part of tuition for a non-public ld school. After the first year, when my wife was driving 25 miles each way, 2 times per day, a car pool and bussing was somewhat worked out. However, it always seemed like the mother WITH a Rolls Royce (for real), who’s child WAS FUNDED, was always asking my wife to drive her kid “since she was going there anyway”. Hmmm, kind of makes you wonder about the $, the power of attorneys, and the irony of Rolls Royces! Anyway, just a side note.

Andy

I have a similar example of a child in our district with CP who REQUIRES physical therapy through the school district. Irony, dad is a physical therapist.

I agree totally about the comparasion of non ld children to ld children. I see my distrticts special ed program as being in the toilet. The way the system seems set up for children to fail.

Recently, the school district was “forced” to cut music classes and increase parents to pay for sports in certain grades. There was complete outrage in the community. How could the school board do such a thing? The meetings were packed with parents, the editorial page was filled with comments of disgust directed at the school department. Meanwhile, my brother can’t read but my next door neighbor is upset becuase he will have to pay $100 dollars to buy a new football uniform for his kid! I would love to pay $100 dollars and have all my problems solved.

Also, the special education department complains to no end about their financial troubles. I have no doubt that they have them, however, I would be interested to see exactly how they spend the seven million dollars they recieve from the state. They also spend twice on a special ed student than they do an a general ed student, yet they get practically the same education? Also, when you provide your insurance info to the school, they bill the company and then the money is put into the general town fund. My insurance money could be funding a new traffic light, or having the town hall lawn mowed.

I don’t know, I think if even a 1/4 of the things that my family have experienced were reversed onto a member of the school board things would be different.

It makes me wonder, maybe I should start questioning how special ed money is spent, since I am not making an school distirct friends anyway!!

K.

uthor: little lulu
Date: 07-22-02 21:21

I’m hoping this does not come out as callous or mean-spirited, but here is the realization that I came to when I had to become educated about special education. So
this is fact and not a slam or blame game.

Special education today has taken over for the institutions that disabled children were placed in years ago. When public schools would not take handicapped children,
they were sent to private schools (if families could afford it) or institutions to receive their special care along with their education.

In no way am I saying that they deserve any less but, now everything has changed and the public schools become the caretakers of handicapped and disabled
children. Special services need to be provided in order for some children to just make it to the school or make it through the day. These services are expensive, but
by law they take priority over education, because the child must be accomodated to attend school with his non-disabled peers.

LD children are placed under the same special education umbrella as all disabled children. Therefore by the time the budget is prioritized and distributed, guess who
comes up short?

I had no idea that this was the case when my son first needed academic special services. I only found out by joining the parent support group through the school.

I know its only a dream, but I do not believe that a child should have to go to school for 7 hours and then have to go to a tutor because he didn’t get what he needed
academically during the school day. That is just wrong.

Sure my child could use some OT, but I never considered that to be the school’s job. I want them to teach him how to read, to spell and to understand the concept
of math. Instead, they are more than happy to do the OT if I want it, but teaching how to read, well, I’m on my own with that one.

It just makes absolutely no sense to me.

!!

Which won’t get ya too far;-)

I have been reading the posts with interest. I haven’t put my two cents in,because I honestly didn’t know how to respond. I find myself in a very strange position,I am a mother who has two children who are special education students,I am a nurse for physically disabled children,currently medicaid recipents. On one hand I am understanding the position of a parent,the other understands the position of a professional working under the constrants of a governmental agency and at the mercy of state funding.

I do want to first comment on thoughts regarding very disable children. Or at least children who were disabled and forced to live in insitutions before IDEA.Actually there was Public Law,but anyway,before it was the obligation of the public school system to help educate them. One thing that immediately struck me,the assumption that a learning disabled student would not be included in the group not allowed in public school.They were more often then one realizes. The other thing that struck me is,wow,the kids who might start out seemingly just sucking our resources dry,who grew up to show us differently.
If a child needs physical therapy to walk independently,most likely a child with cerebral palsy for example,it would be very important to me as a parent for them to learn to ambulate while during school. If not for the socialization,but because too much time is spent in school for the child to not ambulate sometime during. Reality is, it is important,it would be important if it was my child,it would have educational relevance. If I wasn’t a mother of a child with these issues and needs,if I wasn’t a nurse who has seen progress,maybe I wouldn’t know how important it is.Maybe if I was a parent of a kid who needed OT just to learn to feed himself, I would think a kid who needed OT to write neater didn’t need it as much as my kid did. The one thing we don’t need to start doing is seperating against each other. We are in it together,this is our biggest problem.We keep forgetting, we are all in this together…

The kid needs what the kid needs. If the funding was not there,then raise the funds. Spending anytime trying to decide whether they need it or not,now THAT’S a waste of money.

Want irony? How about the fact that while the school district is fighting you in court proving they don’t have to provide the “rolls royce” of services,they ARE using the rolls royce of law firms:-) Only the best will do.

When dealing with school districts the word to use is “appropriate”.

My child’s disability needs to be remediated appropriately.
My child must be educated aprropriately.
My child is behind in reading. His disability needs to be remediated appropriately.

IDEA deems that school district must provide FAPE (free and appropriate education).

This word makes our Special Ed Director listen, change her direction of thought. She is mandated to provide FAPE and if there is a hint that the child is not getting an appropriate education she pays attention. I am not saying that this works everywhere but it can be a button pushing word–- appropriate.

Helen

Of course I knew this was going to happen. I said, in no way would I ever imply that severely disabled children deserve anything less than what they need. I guess I see what you are trying to say, but I know exactly where this post is going to take us.

The problem is that all disabled children are lumped together no matter how severe their disability. Physically disabled children DEFINITELY need PT, OT DURING the day. It is required that this child be attended to by certified professionals to provide their therapy and intervention.

A dyslexic (just to take one example that I can speak from experience) child may be just as severely handicapped in the classroom. Yet to get him through the day, we MAY send in a teacher’s aide (certified or not, who knows for sure) to help him get through the six pages of reading he needs to finish before he can go to computers, otherwise he can’t go.

Or he goes to the resource room for 15 minutes twice a week (because he only gets 30 minutes a week on the IEP) and they try a hodge-podge of techniques to get him reading so he can do well on the ISATs. I know, I know, not all teachers teach for the ISATs (but when you don’t see progress, you assume) and the examples go on and on. Or the time is spent redoing papers he bombed on during class time. And we hear time and time again through posts not to blame these sped teachers because they really aren’t trained properly to remediate our kids. So, we accomodate around the problems and consider it remediation. Well, same as the physically disabled child, a dyslexic child DEFINITELY needs certain things DURING the SCHOOL DAY. But, when we ask for these things, they are considered extravagant, and we must seek them OUTSIDE, of the school day.

The parent of a physically disabled child will not tolerate untrained personnel handling and providing therapy to their child. Yet, it is perfectly acceptable to the school to allow a college student, or a parent volunteer to assist a learning disabled child.

What about the child who require both physical and academic assistance? Wow, how do those kids get what they need?

Anyway … . .

We do need to separate and not for negative purposes. For the purpose of getting what every individual child needs. The umbrella of “disability” is very unfair to ALL involved. We definitely must support each other but we have to be realistic about what is a reasonable, intelligent way of providing these services. We all can attest to the fact that not one department (special ed) can do it all. And they definitely cannot do it appropriately under their current job descriptions.

Sometimes I think they have such low expectations for dyslexics that they don’t think it’s worth the money. I have a friend ??? who is a special ed teacher. She told me, “Well, these kids never really learn to read”. URRRR

With the last statistics of 74% of fourth graders not reading on grade level, the kids in regular ed aren’t much better off than our sped kids. I always tell my kids that the difference between them and the reg ed kids is that they have been tested. The regular ed kids’ parents are complaining and there still isn’t a change. I taught a teamed class in basic English 11 last year and the teacher was new and hadn’t been taught how to teach kids who couldn’t…. I had to teach practically all year using Step Up to Writing in order to teach the kids how to write a paragraph and finally a research paper. I also taught them to read using PG as the warm-up everyday. Many were ex-ESL and didn’t know how to read. In most counties, phonics isn’t taught to them either. Hard to believe isn’t it? Whole languge rules!

Public school is for the top 20% of the kids, not the majority. We are graduating kids that don’t know how to write, read or spell. Math skills actually are worse than reading. There are regular ed, as well as sped kids, who have failed algebra 1 part 1 two times and are taking it again in 11th grade. The problem with this is that they HAVE to pass algebra1 part 1, part 2 and geometry as well as the state tests, SOLs in VA, in order to graduate. There are kids in 10th grade that know that they are receiving a letter of attendance instead of a diploma because they can’t pass the tests. These are reg ed kids let alone the sped kids. The sped kids can get a modified diploma if they don’t pass the tests, reg ed kids don’t have that luxury. Kids are quitting school at an all time high in VA and studying for the GED due to these tests. It is conservatively projected that in two years there will be at least 1500 kids in Fairfax County that are receiving a letter of attendance. These are not sped kids. Given all of this, it is understandable that reg ed kids’ parents are resentful of what the sped kids get and their kids can’t, the modified diploma. I have been hearing that they, Richmond, are going to ‘dummy’ down the tests so that more kids will pass them.

The difference between the sped parents and the reg ed parents is that the sped parents have due process, the reg ed parents don’t, so they have given up on change in the school districts and depend on tutors. Don’t think that you, sped parents, are the only ones with tutoring bills, tutors run the education of the regular ed kids as well. I don’t know of one family that doesn’t either have their kids at Sylvans or Huntington, ( they are quite a racket) or have private tutors. I have 18 students this summer, most aren’t sped kids, and 6 during the year, only 2 sped kids. So, don’t think that you are alone in the quest for an education for your kids.

Shay, I believe that if we were permitted to teach to mastery we would have far fewer failures than we now have. Teachers must cover the standards each year, some states have teachers pretty much all on the same page each day. Good teaching is important, but with that many, many still need much more time with a concept to gain mastery. When we teach to standards, we usually have a large percentage who have huge holes and gaps in their knowledge, math is esp. true of this difficulty.

Of course, there is always another side to any story.

so many reg ed students without reading, spelling, writing, and math skills. Half of the 6th grade class didn’t know their multiplication tables—and only 10% had disabilities.

I also wonder sometimes if all the testing isn’t taking attention away from real learning. Teachers are so scared that their students will do poorly, they may be attending to different objectives. Not saying this is true; however, could be true in some instances.

That’s exactly what keep hearing as well, from teachers I’ve talked to as well as some posts here. The thing is, it tends to come from those who would be required to actually work with the children. Those who diagnose and/or have created programs and do research are very optimistic that there is promise with proper, appropriate REMEDIATION.

I refuse to give up. I will not lower my expectations because I know what my son is capable of.

Most important of all, I want him to read effectively. If he cannot read effectively his access to knowledge and the world is limited. How he aquires information will be limited. He would be limited to listening to what people “say” to gain information and I want for him to be able to go out and find his own resources, his own information so he can form his own opinions. Without reading our world of information is not the same.

I agree with what you are saying to a point. But I speak from my own experience that when our parents want change here, they get it. I guess it varies where you live.

The difference is, for sped kids it is so easy for the administators to throw up the whole “realm of disabilities and lower expectations” issues. More often then not, when there are problems going on in the reg ed classroom they are more likely to consider ineffective teaching methods, curriculum problems, etc. I have seen it happen more than once.

Yes sped parents have due process, but reg ed has the SCHOOL BOARD which is far more effective for immediate change. The school board hesitates to make any decisions about sped, that is usually left up to the sped administrator and the super. Both of which hold the keys to change in your district. Many things can be changed during a heated school board meeting over any given topic. Getting heated up in an IEP meeting surely does not produce the same results.

I am pretty involved in our school district and know many of the parents. Again I speak for myself, but we are not experiencing the extreme need for tutoring for those in reg ed. For sped, absolutely. They tell us flat out if we want it we have to go outside. We do not have Huntington and Sylvan that are within reasonable distance. But we do have our district teachers who solicit parents for summer private tutoring to get the kids caught up.

Our reg ed parents are barking for gifted classes to be SEPARATED from gen ed because their kids needs are not being met. This coming school year, their wishes have been granted.

Oh, do I agree with this. I see the way math is taught. It drives me crazy.

I have a colleague whose son was failing algebra in high school. He took him to a learning center. Turned out he had never really learned his multiplication tables. He is not LD so this is far more than an LD problem.

Beth

Boy, do I see that in college. They’ve gotten the recipes to get ‘em over the next “standard” - but no mastery, no comprehension.

Lulu,

What will you do if, despite all of your efforts, your son never does learn to read really effectively? Some dsylexic people don’t, you know, regardless of how much and what kind of remediation they receive. Most dyslexic individuals are of average to above average intelligence. Native intelligence alone is not a good predictor of how well interventions will work with a dyslexic child. It is far more important to understand where the break down in the learning process is occurring and to target interventions to that. Even so, learning disabilities don’t ever go away, no matter what steps are taken to remediate. People learn ways around the essential problem but sometimes those ways are not enough to make them able to learn effectively through reading. That is not the end of the world, though. There are plenty of very successful people who are dyslexic who rely on books on tape or reading machines. Of course you want your child to learn to read well if he possibly can, and you are right to go after that goal. But, don’t lose sight of the possibility that it may not happen the way you want it to, even though your son is a capable boy and has much to offer the world. Don’t set yourself (and your child) up for some really bitter, perhaps even life-altering, disappointment. Don’t make it an all or nothing proposition. Take it from one who knows.

You have to read Why Our Children Can’t Read and What We Can Do About It. The author does an excellent job of presenting study after study showing that every child can learn to read.

From the book,

Pennington doesn’t really mean “dyslexia” is inherited, because he says “- the final common pathway in most of developmental dyslexia is a deficit in phonological coding.”

In other workds, Pennington recognizes that it is “phonological processing” (the auditory skill to hear and manipulate sounds in words) that might be inherited, and not reading. Pennington’s use of habitual language trails behind what he actually thinks and knows. The problem is that the layman, not familiar with twentyy-five years of research is confused by this habit. Parents or family memebers of poor readers need to know that there is no valid diagnosis of “dyslexia,” no such thing as a “reading gene,” and no such this as inheriting bad reading.” Nor is a weakness in discriminating phonemes caused by organic brain damage.
Although is is meaningless to look for a “reading gene,” subskill or aptitudes that are important to learning reading may be heritiable, just as balance and visuomotor skills may be heritable. It is that natural abillities of people that are transmitted genetically, not unnatural abilities that depend on instruction and involve the integration of many sub skills. This does not mean that these subskills are trainable, or that they would spontaneously be brought to bear on a task when instruction was misleading. There is now an enormous literature on subskills related to reading. These studies will be considered next. …..

They go on to sight the many subskills needed for reading. They discuss what teaching methods work They present the research that supports the concept that programs like lindamood bell and reading relflex that address phonological awareness skills are successful.

Whole language and kitchen sink methods (where teachers try a variety of techniques without a sytematic process to improve phonological awareness) are the real cause of dyslexia.

I invite anyone who disagrees to site the research that supports their opinion.

My son was thought to have dyslexia inherited from his Dad who also was diagnosed with dyslexia. I truely wish that my mother-in-law did not just accept that diagnosis but instead look for a program that would work for him as I have for my son.

Before I even read the rest of the thread…I agree!

YES…this is one of the reasons I have NOT designated my kid…not cause I ‘refuse to admit his disability’ but because parents ahead of me have said ‘HEY…all that happens if you do that is that he gets a B on IEP-driven report card instead of an R under ‘standard’. (or ‘NE’ which means ‘produced a blank page even though we told him to get at it 12 times in an hour).

He won’t read any better, or count any better, or do math or tell time any better…and, when he gets to middle school and is now 4 or 5 years behind in skills instead of 1 or 2, you will have 1) a behaviour problem cuz he has internalized the belief that he cannot succeed at school and 2) you will be told that your ‘expectations are too high and you can’t accept your child’s level of disability’.

Then, like my cousin who went this route, as an illiterate adult you can spend your spare time in your 20’s learning to read at a grass roots community literacy project, return to college and get on with your life…of course, your self image and ability to compete with your peers, AH, that remains stubbornly ‘disabled’…

Sorry, excuse the rant! I have a nephew with duchennes MD, so I hear that side of it — but 9 months of ‘reading recovery’ did NOT help my kid to read — 6 weeks of Spalding DID! (privately paid for during vacation…by me, who can’t wait for the school to try their band-aids but demanded LITERACY for my dyslexic child — it’s his RIGHT, not his privilege!)

The technology exists — it would help ALL the children! And then, what $$$$ extra would be available to help my nephew get OUTSIDE FOR RECESS IN WINTER???
best regards to all…
Elizabeth

PLEASE don’t post this here…find me a dyslexic person who ‘can’t’ and i GUARANTEE there are programs that will help him —what is your basis for this assertion?

for saving me from embarrassing myself…with greatest regards to ALL the posters, please NEVER say ‘some people can’t learn to read’ when discussing someone who has exhibited symptoms of dyslexia!

Oh Elizabeth, we must talk. Reading recovery was the program that my school used as well. It is extremely expensive. I know in my son’s class it was used with a 50% success rate. One on one tutoring every day and all you get is 50%. I am sure it was somehow the childrens fault that they just couldn’t learn. So many of these kids just can’t learn. Sheeeeesh
I saw poster at the library of someone who offered tutoring. She proclaimed herself an expert trained in reading recovery.
I wanted to rip it down. LOL

Many folks who have been in the disability community since PL 97-142 look in on this page from time-to-time. These veterans have children who may be in their 30’s by now. Or 20’s.

Many have sent their children to very pricy private schools (who generally *do* get results) and have not had a positive experience. Yet, their children are average ability. They fought for laws. They fought for other people’s children. They fought for valium.

If people think they are “spent” with an eight, ten, or fourteen-year-old dyslexic, just imagine fighting this fight for twenty more years…or more.

Voice probably met Pennington when he/she was in a bachelor’s program.

Sometimes acceptance is necessary. Without it, there is no peace.

***

Voice,

I’m not sure how you would expect me to answer a question like that. In order for me to say, “well, he never DID learn to read” would mean that I gave up trying at some point.

Here’s the difference though, I will not give up, yet at the age of 10, the school has thrown in the towel and is encouraging me to do the same. Not gonna happen. I will not lower my expectations for him, I feel I would be letting him down. But at the same time, I will not torture him by making him put in extra hours AFTER school to get what he should have gotten during the school day. Supposedly, that is what special education and IEP mean. If they will not provide it, I will but it will be during the school day. Not after school while he should be playing outside like everyone else in his classroom. Not inside being punished for not understanding what the teacher presented in class this week.
Just like every other child, he is entitled to the APPROPRIATE instruction during the school day.

I am painfully aware that dyslexia, learning disabilities, etc. are life-long conditions. But right now, my son is not independent. Cannot read alone a get meaning from what he reads. I know where the learning process is breaking down, and with the help of parents here, I have learned what I should be asking for. The problem, the school wants to and reserves the right to do it their way.

He is in an inclusive classroom (going into 5th grade) where they no longer teach students HOW to read. They are now reading novels for a grade. He cannot do it. We got a taste of it this past year. In order for him to keep up, my husband and I spent hours reading to him. But why? What was he learning for the sake of keeping up? He was being entertained, not perfecting his reading skills. Honestly, there was no time to work on that, he had to have two chapters a night READ, ready for a quiz at any time during the week, plus all other homework.

And, like many other parents here, I have a younger son who is struggling just as much who requires much assistance to get through homework too.

I do not believe that being persistent is setting myself or my son up for bitter, life-altering disappointment. I think the opposite is true. If I were to follow their professional advice (which is not offered freely) without investigating every available option, we would not be where we are right now. He would be even further behind. SOME progress has been made since we began, I have no reason to doubt more success in the future and I won’t let them put out the glimmer of hope by telling me to accept his disability. That is hooey; but I thank you for your concern.

Susan,

No offense but you yourself admit to using at least some whole language techniques.

If you know children who are failing I implore you to try phonographix or lindamood bell. If these fail have the child looked at for binocular vision or tracking disorders. Read the book Why Our Children Can’t Read. Open your mind to the research.

It makes me sick to think that if I had left my child’s reading instruction up to the school he would be considered just one who can’t learn. I am glad I dealt with this myself rather than being in the position of having him become an adult who can’t learn.

If all these things have been tried then the next level of intense therapy for the specific area of deficit must be tried. More often than not the other things are never tried. It is the reality we face in our schools. Please don’t tell any parent itis time to give up. It never is when it is your child.

Many private schools also practice whole language. Going to private school does not prove anything. Also, private schools can be worse because they rarely offer therapy of any kind to remediate deficits.

One of the children in my son’s class who failed reading recovery came from a very poor family. It was so sad. His mother couldn’t advocate for him. She just had to accept the idea that her son couldn’t learn. He received the best this school had to offer and he couldn’t do it. Unfortunately when the best you have is a mish mash of whole language and various other “strategies,” the best isn’t good enough.

I know,I know,I have purposely tried to stay out of the conversation,I just have too many kids I love who are physically disabled. In all due respect,and you KNOW I love you,the type of services,even the time spent,is almost identical to what a physically disabled child might get,with the school saying this is “appropriate” education. Do you realize that a parent of a physically disabled child has to fight every bit as much to get services for their kid? I have kids who are 3 and 4 years old,who medicaid won’t fund PT /OT for,because they failed to make progress.They call it maxing out. What this means is a group of professionals sit down in a team( sound familiar?) and determine the child is just too disabled to benefit from therapy. Seriously. If we try and seperate groups,someone somewhere is going to then be given the opportunity to decide whether the services are beneficial. Yup,the “less severe group” they won’t get OT,because you must qualify for the severe category to be elgibile for OT. Or,the “severe” group,they won’t ever be able to walk,so we won’t provide PT,because to qualify for PT,you must be elgible for the less severe group to qualify. This is what a bearucacy does,personally I feel like as IDEA states,once qualified ,ALL areas of need will be evaluated,no matter how mild the need seems to be. This is all I am saying,disabled is defined, it must have educational need,all area of possible need must be discussed,and services must be provided. How would you determine a seperate group?

I am not ashamed of using whole language techniques. I have some students who do learn this way. I would do them a disservice to put them in an intensive phonics remedial group. My specialty is assessment and prescription.

When one only knows the learning needs of their own child (and possible a few others), it is hard to think about the myriads of other learning need combinations. At the middle school, I saw 50 kids every day. (I was amazed at what I didn’t know!) Some needed fluency. Some needed Visualizing & Verbalizing. Some needed straight whole word/whole language repetition. It is my job to assess the learning needs and provide what will bring measurable results. One tool in my toolbox won’t cut it. It is a diverse world out there.

I am extensively trained in and use: LmB, Orton-Gillingham, Visualizing & Verbalizing, and a host of whole language/basal techniques, I don’t feel a need at this time for PG. I do have some referral sources, if I need them. I have used them, but so far they were unsuccessful in bringing results for the students. A couple of years ago, I looked over the materials and discussed it with some of my colleagues. I am not downing it, so please don’t barrage me with hate-mail about being anti-PG.

FYI, there are many very fine private schools who do an excellent job of providing remedial services. I could give you a long, long list. Among them: Lab School of Washington, Brehm Prep, Gowan, Killdonan, Landmark. They are specialty private schools. They specialize in Dyslexia/LD

Hi Socks,

I answered the response from my e-mail and didn’t realize it was you. Just didn’t want it to turn into a misunderstood message. Basically, I was saying that I had no idea of what was involved when I started out, I thought schools dealt with educational issues and physical issues were the responsibility of the parents. But I learned I was very wrong. So, I am sure that many other parents are unaware of how all of this money is spent also.

Our parent support group (at school) was started by a parent of a child with CP (he is the most severe in our district that I am aware of, who actually attends the school). When we all first met, it was a majority of LD parents who showed up and they were there because they were not satisfied with what was going on. Well, she stated that this group was not formed to serve as a complaint session, the next month 3 people showed up; her, me and the mother of another child with CP.

Well, she said she had no idea that LD parents were having such difficulties because she had nothing but favorable things to say about her son’s services. She only had complaints about the IQ testing methods that were used for her son’s eval and the group was her idea to help parents talk things over. We all realized that the only thing we had in common was the fact that our children were considered disabled. But in no way were we in a position to help each other except for how to deal with the school. It was a real eye opener to all of us to realize the as extremely different as our children were (LD vs. physically) we were all under the same umbrella.

So, I guess again, it all depends on the district you attend. And physically disabled students (to the best of my knowledge, though I may be wrong) have buffers to supplement them, Medicaid, social security, private insurance, separate funding etc. For LD intervention I cannot collect Medicaid, my insurance considers all of this developmental (not covered) and as far as funding, my son has not cost them an extra dime since he receives no services. Just the full-time sped teacher employed by the district who pops in on him once in a while.

Separating the two? Most LD children have learning differences not disabilities. They are teachable with proper methods. Disability is defined as an incapacity. Most LD children are NOT incapacitated. We all know that. Their difficulties can be remediated for the most part. We can teach a dyslexic to read, but no matter how much PT/OT we provide, most children with CP in a wheelchair will not walk. Has our CP parent ever been told that by our school? NEVER!!!!! I have asked her this question. But I am constantly told that I need to lower my expectations for getting my child to read independently. She cannot believe that this is the same person who helps her son everyday.

Do either of the two examples deserve priority? I say no. But under our current system of providing services there is a priority list because they all are grouped as one. Every big business is run with different departments and sub-departments. Why should special education be any different? There are different jobs to be done and they should all be done effectively by the person who best fits the job description. The more we find out about disabilities/differences the more highly specialized the job description becomes. Therefore, we need to be progressive with the times and specialize and do it the right way. As a nurse you see this very example everyday in your field. Would there be as many success stories in the medical profession if it operated today the way it did 30 years ago? How about even 5 years ago?

We are so worried about being politically correct that we are truly harming more than we are trying to serve. I’m sorry if others do not agree with my point of view, but I will say this. Being politically correct means striving to make everyone equal. Yet, when we say, okay then I want my kid to strive for average (which means a typical amount or equal) we are told that is too much to expect. So, by accepting the label for our kids in the system, they tell us it is all about leveling out the playing field, but when you ask why it isn’t happening, they tell you it actually isn’t possible in the grand scheme of things.

I’ve rambled again, so I’ll shut up now.

The nail on the head. My son is not LD going into the 4th grade. Learned to read without difficulty, makes all A’s. Can’t spell to save himself. Why….he was never taught how to break a word down into it’s parts to spell it…..a part of the infamous whole language…..Yikes….Yet on the standardized testing he scored at the Grade Equivelant 12.9 in reading, 12.0 in language with total score in 10 grade…….Give me a break…..How much does this testing really mean?….What good does it do to teach to the tests, when some basics are sorely lacking……According to the standardized tests, my son is just about ready for his high school diploma…..(LOL)

My eldest daughter tested out at 12.9 when she was
12 years old.
She is now in high school, is a 4.0 student
and 45th out of 470 students

– and her spelling will make you cry.

I spent $350 on a spelling boot camp. She can
tell you all the rules. She understands all the rules.
She knows the history of the English language.
But without spell check and dear-old-mom she
just can’t spell.
And her dyslexic dad can’t spell.
Twenty three years and he still can’t spell
apple and bagel on the grocery list.

Coping is the name of their game.

Anne :-)

Whatever your methods I hope you don’t get into the habit of telling parents it is time to quit on their kids. Please never say, “Well don’t get your expectations up because he may never learn to read.” The research shows that this is simply not true.

My son’s first grade teacher knew the school couldn’t teach him to read. She never thought my son couldn’t do it. She encouraged me to take the bull by the horns and teach him myself. I am glad she did.

Perhaps I am just a parent with experience with just one child. I have never let my experience cloud my judgement on anything. History is full of examples of numerous failures related to those who follow their experience and ignore science.
I have seen it many times, in many settings.

More than once I have been face to face with a patient who understood the latest research about their disease, someone who made it their life’s work to deal with the hand they were dealt. I always admired, respected and learned from these people. Somehow the word patient never seemed to fit. Some nurses and doctors hated to be second guessed. Well, at least the insecure ones.

This exchange has really struck a chord with me. Sorry, if it sounds angry it really isn’t. It is just something I am quite passionate about.

Linda,

I’ll never forget the shock as my little first grade boy (already diagnosed as LD) came home saying, “Mommy, my teacher says I might be someone who can’t learn to read.” After I picked myself up off the floor, I replied, “She obviously doesn’t know us very well.” Yes, she really said it—and admitted it to me. Silly woman. It was an uphill trudge from there resulting in homeschooling after a complete nervous breakdown—my child’s, not mine. (Though sometimes I wondered…) I wasn’t a teacherthen, nor a person with a different learning style. I loved school and it was pretty easy for me. The whole special ed thing was, initially, completely baffling to me.

Reading progress for my son was slow at first, but we began to pick up speed as I got more knowledgeable and hired the right people. Waving a due process stick (I mean this figuratively, of course) didn’t help with school. I just had to find tutors and take classes myself.

I made some other real serious mistakes as a mom, but that is for a discussion other than academics.

As a teacher now, I instruct lots of kids on which other teachers have given up. I’ve not given up on one yet. Not even the 45-50 IQ’s and multi-handicapped kids. I believe one just keeps trying without predicting outcome. I believe that we must have a shred of realism, though, and say, “I’ll try but who knows what will happen every time.” Sometimes growth for some kids is so small and summer regression is so huge. (No, not every parent will take advantage of ESY. I begged for it and couldn’t get it half the time.)

Wish you’d known me as a parent advocate. You’d of liked me better, probably. But I’m doing more good for kids in my current endeavor, despite what parents on this BB may think because I include 10-15 sight words per year. I wish my old parent advocate cronies could read these posts. They’d be sending me humorous private emails joking about the worm turning on me. :-) I understanding venting.

Continuing my personal legend,
Susan Long

I would be very surprised if you went along in your group at your district and never found a parent who was dissatisified. I can’t believe no one found common ground? Yes, we are all under the same umbrella. Disability is defined under federal rules as one who is in need of services. Who qualifies for services.

Met literally hundreds of children with CP who learned to walk. One girl is 16 years old. Very intelligent,but was wheelchair bound. Operated and provided rehab. she now walks all over her college campus with canadian canes.
Just can’t say,all cp kids,all ld kids etc. With that being said there is physiologocial walking. This means standing and taking even a few steps each day to prevent deformities,like scoliosis which cause internal organ damage,which can shorten a life span.

In my experiences in my state these students have just as much difficulty,just as much disservice done to them,we seemed to find a common ground no matter the disability?

On the risk of stepping on toes , I wonder if I missed something. My son would be one of the children who would never have learned to read in a school. The programs he needed simply are not available in the UK, nor did I even know about them. It was just obvious. He doesn’t learn the way the other kids learn. And even at this point I don’tknow how far he’ll go. Our tutour dares to hope we’ll be ableto turn him lose in the library after next winter. That he’ll bethe kid he would have been if his developing brain hadn’t gotten those nuerons damaged.
After reading posts here and seeing how tiring it is for him- I’m not so sure. But I do feel we’re giving him the best shot at it he could ever have. We’ll do IM this Sept before we go back for more tuition over the winter withhis tutour. And I’ll take what we get and continue to work on his strengths. I will NEVER give up on him,but if his brain is not wired to be able to read the way his father and I do (voraciously) then that will be his reality and we will work on an audio book library,videos, cd’s and maximize the way he learns because that will be his reality. Isn’t that all that’s being said?

My daughter is a completely different person verbally and on the computer than she is with a pencil in her hand. She can dictate stories that are unbelievable; however, with a pencil the same story might be about 2 sentences and 8 out of 10 words misspelled unless she’s given several hours to do it. (Being a spelling bee winner in school, this pains me greatly :-). ) Unfortunately, her strengths are my weaknesses and my strengths are her weaknesses.

My thinking is this - and correct me if I’m wrong - (Uh oh, I may have just opened myself up to some “Here we go again”)

I plan to remediate as much as possible. I want her reading and writing to the best of her ability. However, I do not want her to spend her precious time ad energy writing out long assignments and struggling through novels that she can use computers and books on tape to help her with. If she can work hard and get through a novel, fine, if she is exhausted and dragging b/c of the length of it, it’s time for books on tape. Not every time, but as and if the need arises. As the prev. post said it’s all about coping and compensation WITH a healthy self esteem intact. Anyone with me here?

Phono-Graphix is very popular in the UK. Have you tried it? It is extremely good and supports the research by NIH. As a matter of fact, it is going to be independently researched as soon as the funding is awarded.

Yes, at some level I can agree with what you are saying but as a parent I would not give up hope that my child will continue to improve in his reading and writing skills; I think the operative word is HOPE, no I do not expect the public school system to work miracles…we will continue on as a family with tutoring and lots of work at home. I have to say though that as a result of working at a private school, Perkins School for the Blind(where Helen Keller was a student), some students surprise everyone in overcoming tremendous disabilities…I have never met a more devoted group of teachers, and they expected that every student could learn. I wish I could have seen this attitude in all of the public school teachers I have met along the way.

You are right not to give up. Read Why Our Children Can’t Read before you do.

It points to extensive scientific evidence that those termed dyslexic can learn to read.
It was this line in Voice’s original post that I responed too. She said some dyslexics despite appropriate interventions don’t learn to read effectively.

Science, not me, says she is wrong.

My son was a really different learner, too, in a time when only a handful of folks were trained in anything but whole language. I wasn’t sure how far we’d get either; however, we wasn’t reading at all and no one (but me) seemed to think that we’d given up too soon.

I probably go too far the other way as a teacher—never give up, keep trying, etc.—but have always felt it’s better to err to this side of the debate.

While I’m remediating kids, I like to use lots of book-on-tape so that they can participate in the same lit as their classroom friends. They model good fluency and, I believe, help build fluency when students read along. If book-level has become to difficult for student to follow along, I just have them listen and join in pre- and post-reading discussions. I modify or accommodate the writing assignements, if needed. They really fall behind in vocabulary and information if they’re not included in the general ed curriculum. (I didn’t say plunked in the classroom with no services.)

This has been such an interesting , and civil thread!

I’m sure noone here believes that as parents we should leave any stone unturned in trying to find the best way to teach our children to read. Personally I haven’t, and my son (now 8, going into 3rd grade) is making slow and steady progress. Will he have a breakthrough at some point and learn to love reading? I hope so - but I do accept that it may never be his strongest way of getting information. Will he be literate? Absolutely!! but he may choose to conduct his life using other tools. My job right now is to strengthen his reading as much as is humanly possible for him so he has choices.

My husband and I just had dinner with a business associate of his who has been extremely extremely successful (professionally, personally, financially) and he revealed to us that he didn’t learn to read until he was in 8th grade, still can’t write, avoids reading even now. He runs a company so when we asked how he functions he said he uses his strength with numbers to make decisions, and gets other people to type for him. A perfect example of a very intelligent person using his strengths.

My husband is a very successful business executive. He always struggled with reading. Was written off as dyslexic. Yes, written off.
Luckily his tenacious personality intervened and he is literate but not someone who enjoys reading. I know that if phonographix was used with him things would be different.
I look at my son as validation that the scientific research on what dyslexia is and isn’t is correct. My son has far worse deficits than I believe my husband ever did.
My son is already a better speller.
When my son and I use pig latin my husband does not have the tools to manipulate the words and figure out what we are saying. He is just missing some basic tools. I
He is a victim of whole language and kitchen sink methods. I guess some would call that dyslexia. I call it something else.

I am not giving up on my son but it has been a lot harder than I ever thought it would be. He has done PG for over two years. He did an intensive, he had a PG trained teacher last year. He does not read at grade level. We started LIPS this summer. He just didn’t seem to make progress. The teacher was frustrated—she taught a special pull out program for the worst kids in the public schools and she had never seen a kid like him.

Last year we realized that he had difficulties with higher level thinking, writing as well as handwrighting.

He seems to have multiple problems—some of which are unrelated. He has no true strengths—auditory, visual, fine motor (and thus why LIPS didn’t do as much for him—he doesn’t gain much information that way), sensory integration, word retrieval.

I guess what I am saying is that there isn’t always a program that the schools should have been doing (like PG) that would make it all right, at least for a kid like my son. We are getting the best help we can find right now and I still hope for him.

Now I do think that there are lots of kids like your son who would be much better off with appropriate teaching. And I believe that the schools should teach so that the greatest number of kids can learn to read.

Well, it is off to the neurologist. Maybe he will have a piece of this puzzle named my son.

Beth

You keep doing the best you can. I’m sure all of the effort you and your son have put into this will put him in the best possible position. : )

A key point there is the early intervention, before she’s had years of non-practice. The trick is to *not* keep the reading limitations from slowing down other learning — so as you said, making her handwrite things in the name of learning to write, at the expense of learning to express her ideas in mature language, would be a mistake — but spending *some* time on handwriting wouldn’t be.

Yes Beth, Good Luck.

I know you do so much for your son. You are an inspiration to us all. Sometimes I feel like Susan Sarandon in that movie Lorenzo’s Oil. She did her own research to help cure her child’s condition.

I think it is unfortunate that we are forced to reinvent the wheel. I think that if there was better techniques for diagnosing very specific areas of deficits and very specific therapies and or treatments for these same deficits we would not need to do so much reinventing. Even the diagnosis through so many “experts” seems so subjective.
I think it is unfortunate that a culture in education exists where some believe it is unneccesary to put educational and therapeutic interventions through the rigors of scientific study.

I think if this were not so we would not need to do as much of this ourselves.

When I first started this I couldn’t understand why I found some of my answers not in the most recent research but in things done as far back as the 50s and 60s. It is mind boggling to think that education took a detour called whole language that we are still unraveling.

I think the problem lies with the legal definition of disability. That would be the answer on how it should be separated.

I do not believe I said “all CP and all LD.” I never claimed to be a genius, but I do know that we never use the term “all” when talking about anything in life.

Of course I am not in a position to debate you on the medical issues or examples you bring up, but I was strictly speaking of cases and information that I am personally aware of.

I think you are as seeing me as someone who does not believe that physically disabled children deserve appropriate intervention. That could not be further from the truth since a have a physically disabled friend who I have been very close with since childhood.

My opinion is that physical disabilities, realistically, are different from learning disabilities on many important levels. In order for each to get the appropriate services they need, it would make more sense to separate them by redifing the federal definition of disability. This would give us much more flexibility to address issues individually and hire the appropriate staff for the appropriate department instead of pretending that whoever we hire is good enough for all of the IEP/504 kids.

Its just not working.

Gee…that would be a great book title. Sally Smith thought so, too! (And what a great book it is.) Many folks think that having a few diagnoses with dyslexia and we all know how to remediate all of those with the label. Even those that spout research must be careful lest they believe hypothesis are “proven” with a study or two. It just isn’t that simple for everyone.

Keep turning those pieces. You’ll get them to fit.

What’s up in the speech/language area? Is that a problem, too? (I’d probably know that if I’d been looking in for the last year.)

You said so well what I said so confusingly. My son does read now after LMB. And after more tuition he will probably be able to decode well above his grade level.
( By way Shay, I’m afraid PG is not as availalble in UK as the readamerica board or I wouldlike it to be. They tried reccommending about 5 tutours inthe area-none of them were even remotely available- all ones that got back with me working for private schools. And there was certainly no way for parents to learn of it. I believe it is a good program and am encouraging scout leader to get training since think it would be good for her as way to work and stay home with kids and area would have local tutour. All public schools use Oxford reading tree which is whole language and so God knows there’s need)
However, I don’tknow that he will ever be ableto rely on it wholly for his learning. And I’m not even sure that will be a bad thing -the moreways he has to learn the more adaptable he is to any future work situation. I think he willdo well in college classes if he wants or needs college. I do believe dyslexics can learn to read. But the problem is in defining reading. As someone suggested many physically disabled kids can learn to walk with much remediation, but those who go on to run the London marathon are rare. Part of my heart will always be broken if my son who’s loved books and reading from almost day 1 won’t beable to read all the books he wants to as quickly as I or his father can, but that may be the reality. He has other strengths