closing gap/ whose achievement is it

The gap to be “closed” is between IQ and achievement, not between V and P IQ; that said, my son’s VIQ increased by 20 points in three years, and P IQ stayed pretty much the same and the school psychologist had no explanation…we felt the first testing was not as accurate, and we had spent three years working hard at home and with private tutoring, and some Wilson at school. Our school did not care about the change in scores; our child didn’t really qualify for spec. ed.(superior IQ, low average achievement) and we didn’t want the services anyway. You might want to look at the site http://alpha.fdu.edu/psychology/expected_achievement.htm It’s tables of predicted achievement scores for various IQs. Also look at http://www.homepages.dsu.edu/fiegent/Cour…ings/regressed_scores_for_determining.htm This lists regressed scores for determining a discrepancy between IQ and achievement at 1.5 standard deviation.

Very interesting. I was told that the reason he was eligible (3 years ago) was because his VIQ was 111 PIQ was 84. So there was what they called a gap defining his learning disability. He also had a lot of scatter.

Now we had the testing done outside (in May) His VIQ is 107 and PIQ 106 and that was one of the neuropsych’s first comment to us that he closed his gap. Maybe I am misunderstanding or the term is used for the same things?

So what scores would I use for achievement? Is there an overall score like VIQ or even FIQ?

Thank you so much for the links!!!!!!!! I had posted last week looking for something like this. I knew there had to be some objective data to be used to determine expected achievement. No one seemed to know. The second link didn’t go through, so I’ll go in manually. Thanks so much!

Okay, so I get the IQ column (on the chart) but what are the scores across the top (.40, .50, etc.), where do I find those in my scores that I have for achievement?

I know with my daughter there was a 19 pt. gap between VIQ and PIQ and the pyschologist mentioned this as “there is a “significant discrepancy between VIQ and PQ…” in the report. What she was most concerned with was subtest scatter (9-19) and up to a 36 pt. spread between achievement and IQ in some areas (22-36 was the most common).

SAR, it’s interesting to see the 20 pt. increase in your son’s IQ. Do you attribute this to the tutoring or just poor scoring the 1st time? I know my daughter’s achievement score in reading comp. went up 6 pts. after one year of LMB, but they did not retest the IQ. Just find all this very interesting.

Many, many years ago (when my son only had a low-average measured intelligence), I used a book called “WISC III Compilation” from Academic Therapy Publications. They are still in business, I order other things from them as a teacher. The book has been revamped when the WISC was renormed.

The book doesn’t suggest or imply that we should teach to the test, but gives lots of learning games/activities for segments of the WISC that are underdeveloped. Now, it isn’t perfect (because the WISC doesn’t perfectly pinpoint specific auditory and visual perception, or motor coordinative issues). But it sure helped me as a parent to find some games to play and home activities that would help him in some areas of weakness. He grew about 30 points in 2-3 years. I’m not sure how much was related to my activities, but they can’t hurt. Many are just board games (Like “Guess Who”) and we played many, many hours together. I’d like to see a book for the Woodcock Cognitive…Anyone seen such a beast?

I didn’t know how to teach reading then. I read to him and play games with him. Ah, the good ol’ days.

We didn’t attach too much significance to the change, probably because we “knew” he was quite bright, but had trouble with language-mediated skills. There is a normal range of “up and down” of test scores, and I wouldn’t get too excited about a change of a few points in one direction or another. We had an outside psychologist review all of his scores and it was time well spent.

Thank you. I will look into this. My son did horrid on two subtests of Wisc III. Both involve parts to whole reasoning. I am sure this can be improved but feel like I am doing a bit hit and miss here. I have played Guess What from Language Wise book. Here you give details of an object and guess what it is. He seemed to do well at it so not sure I am getting at what is the problem!!!

Beth

why does someone need credit? Why can’t a celebration be for the child and the rest just be pleased. The closing of verbal and performance scores are interesting but the most important area for improvement is in achievement. That’s when the celebration should occur. For the IQ to change much is not how it is designed. The cognitive ability should remain fairly constant unless there is an organic interference, which would cause a considerable decline in IQ. If everything remains the same environmentally - so should the full scale score.

Your school should have given an achievement test to determine the descrepancy between that and IQ for placement decisions. My district usually gives the Woodcock, but your’s maybe different. Your psy. eval. should have clearly listed academic areas with standard scores which correlate to IQ scores. Maybe where your confusion comes into play is they may have used the higher (performance or verbal) to determine the descrepancy for placement. As an example, if the PIQ was 110 and achievement score in Reading Comprehension was 78 - that is a big discrepancy and will probably qualifiy for LD - depends on the age of the child as to the needed spread. Make sense?

I guess that sounds negative but i fear that they will tell me that their intervention is what closed the gap and the reality is that they haven’t helped him at all with any specific remediation.

Since no one can tell you though what the actual potential is for a child with LDs, I guess I’m just looking for some validation that he will be okay on his own. He resists assistance and if he is able to close things up for himself, why force assistance on him when he doesn’t want it? Does that make any sense?

He has only been pulled out of class to redo papers that he bombed or taken out of classes he enjoys like computers,science or recess to work on long-term projects that require extended time for him.

But if the gap means achievement vs. IQ, we have not made progress. The gap between PIQ vs. VIQ is for eligibility then? So if that has closed up, he may no longer be eligible maybe?

Perhaps this depends on the school, but my child has stayed classified even when his performance improved. They classified him as speech impaired going into K (he had been classified that way as a preschooler) even though the school district committee (because transferring from preschool elgibility to school elgibility) admitted he would not be classified that way if he was not already in the system.

I think you can put him on a consult so that you don’t lose elgibility if you want/need it later. You can also keep modifications this way.

If you don’t think the school is doing him any good, then I would pull him out unless you think your efforts will lead to effective change for your son. I think you as a parent will have to pick up the slack at home with homework assistance and perhaps a tutor. I would think a child who hates being pulled out would be amenable to this trade off.

Beth

The difference between performance and verbal scores only help to understand that some people are better “thinkers” then “sayers”. Some people have great descrepancies between the two and many have very little difference. The scores are sometimes used separately to help in placing a student into a SPED program. Most of the time we use the full scale quotient, which isn’t an average of the two. But in some cases the difference is great enough to allow a placement. A lot of the time it is a low verbal score that shows interesting issues. Many kids are smarter then we think because they will have higher performance scores that are more the “hidden” intelligence. Once a child is placed in SPED, the focus should be on the achievement score improving, or the gap between IQ and achievement closing. Hope this makes sense. Also, understand that achievement is related to age of the child so naturally what is in the normal range for a 10 year old is not the same as the 15 year old. Our expectations of what they should be able to do is chronologically related. He may have made progress that just isn’t reflected due to age.
One more comment - IQ is suppose to be a determination of potential, not the LD an individual has. Many of our brightest and most successful people in history have had LD issues. It’s what they do with what they’ve got that makes the difference.

Typically, schools will not dismiss a student who no longer qualifies simply because there testing indicates they no longer qualify. It should be a team decision and what is best for the child. Schools want to continue to provide a “net” in case problems arise.

Schools are so largely based upon verbal and language skills that I would not tell a parent that a child would function in school according to their Performance IQ; yes, there are many factors that influence achievement in school, that’s why I think these long discussions of each little subtest score and scores that go up and down a few ppoints are counterproductive. Skills that do influence achievement like organization, flexibility, determination, and overall social skills are more important than a few points up and down on IQ testing. Curriculum-based assessment may help know more about how a child is doing in their own school. I have posted before that special ed. regulations are so different state to state and even town to town, that global advice about eligibility is not too useful.

Schools are so largely based upon verbal and language skills that I would not tell a parent that a child would function in school according to their Performance IQ; yes, there are many factors that influence achievement in school, that’s why I think these long discussions of each little subtest score and scores that go up and down a few points are counterproductive. Skills that do influence achievement like organization, flexibility, determination, and overall social skills are more important than a few points up and down on IQ testing. Curriculum-based assessment may help parents know more about how a child is doing in their own school system. I have posted before that special ed. regulations are so different state to state and even town to town, that global advice about eligibility is not too useful unless you identify your state or locale.

“Woodcock-Johnson Psych-Educational Battery- Revised
Recommendations and Reports” by Nancy Mather and Lynne Jaffe

Helen

I found several titles and finally ordered this one. Hope it is the one and hope it includes the Woodcock Cognitive. Yes?

Mather, Nancy and Lynne Jaffe. (2002). Woodcock-Johnson III: Reports, Recommendations, and Strategies. New York: J. ey.

While I was at it, I ordered:

Mather, Nancy and Rhia Roberts. (1997). Informal assessment and instruction in written language: a practitioner’s guide for students with learning disabilities. New York: J. Wiley.

Do you know this one? If so, comments?

How do you determine a discrepncy if an IQ was given but in for an achievment test the Brigance was used? Is the Brigance supposed to come with standard scores and percentile ranks becuase mine only came with age equivelants. If I try and compare his IQ scores to the age equivelants he appears to be doing fine. Most of the age’s were right on target with his current age, excpept for recognizing letters. His VIQ was 90 and his PIQ was 105 his FSIQ was 96. He did have some subtest scatter on the IQ.

My son also had a speech and lang eval. That is where they qualified him, under communications, for services, 30 minutes of speech and lang once a week.

He is only 6 years old entering 1st grade but I am not sure that speech and lnag is really where he needs the assistance?? I also realize that this particular district does not usually do a lot with children under about 8-9 years old.

I am confused, did they not take into account the 15 points between the VIQ and PIQ??

Thanks

I would imagine that they are going to tell you that the discrepency between VIQ and PIQ is only 1 standard deviation below the mean and most states look for 1.5 or even 2.

If you want to know more about standard deviation and the bell curve you can find it on the website: www.fetaweb.com (I thing that’s right) from the Pete and Pam Wright books.

And you’re probably on target with the 8-9 year old issue too. I’ve been stalled by our school too to wait until at least 2nd grade to test because they say these skills they test are still developing and it is more accurate the older they are.

I suspect that the deviation means that a difference of 15 point between VIQ and PIQ is 1.5 to 2.0?

How can they use the brigance to measure achievement? I know that he is young but isn’t there a better measure?

At any rate, I am having the speech and lang done privately through our insurance and we are doing PG and Handwriting without Tears.

Since the only service the school will provide is speech/lang 30 min 2x a wk, and I would be required to pull him from his private school, I would feel better getting the services privately, at least for right now.

K.

That is the newest version and it also includes the Woodcock Cognitive.

I haven’t heard of the other one. After you read it let us know what you think and if it is any good. I work at a Partent Information Center and we house CA’s Special Education Library so I love checking things out. We have just got in Mel Levine’s complete All Kinds of Minds video series. I can’t wait ‘til it’s ready to be checked out.

Helen

I’ll have to see if they have the Levine videos. I’d like to see them, too. Thanks for you posts!

One standard deviation is 15 points for an IQ or achievement test where the mean is 100. As I posted above, the “gap” referred to as a discrepancy is the gap between IQ and achievement.

Ok, I understand the deviation.

How do you compare IQ to achievement??

K.

Leah I’ve tried to locate the book “wisc iii compilation from Academic Therapy Publications that you mentioned in your post. However I wasn’t able to find it. Could it possibly be under another title? Would appreciate any help in locating this book as it sounds like it would be of great help for my grandson Thanks Carol

Susan I am trying to locate the book you mentioned on a previous post . Its from Academic Therapy Publications called WISC III Compilation. However I can’t seem to find it. Could it possibly be called something else? Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated as I think this would be quite beneficial for my grandson. Thanks