a child who won't try any more

Hi,

I had a child like that in 5th/6th grade. She was 12. She couldn’t read, do math and she just shut down, said things like I am stupid, I will never learn, and why bother.. She too has dyslexia, a hearing impairment and ADHD. What meds have your tried with him. What kinds of things does he look forward to doing? What we did with our daughter was motivate her and also did remediation to help her catch up to her peers. It took her abotu 6-9 months to get out of the depression she was in. The right medication helped her quite a bit as well. Now she says stuff like I am smart! That was a long time in coming….

He is depressed!!! He needs an anti-depressant to just get him level enough to then begin to have hope. Have him tested for his learning style. He probably is a kinesthetic learner but is being forced to learn the way most other kids do, which is visually. forcing him to try to learn this way has him convinced he is stupid and probably hopeless. He is very teachable and educable just not in the way the school teaches. It is your right to have him taught in the way that complements his learning style. Don’t give up!! Right now, attending school is probably the one big factor that has him convinced he is hopeless. How long could anyone go and fail day after day and not get depressed? He can learn by doing, such as on the job training. My daughter had this problem and was convinced she was a dummy for many years. She was gifted in working with her hands, just not in reading and taking tests on paper. She could do well in cooking and do the work, but then to subject her to a written test defeated her. there are other ways to absorb knowledge other than reading and memorization. Some people will never be good readers but they are EDUCABLE!!! They can watch videos, be taught with a mentor, listen to tapes, go on field trips etc. Actually, in the real world isn’t one of the greatest learning experiences when you get a job and someone trains you? It is on the job training and that is the method your child probably needs to excel.
Please go to my duahgter’s website to see if there are similarites in their stories. I hope I helped and most of all, dig till you find what he needs and then DEMAND the school provides it including the testing he needs. It is your child’s right to a ‘free and appropriate education’
http://www.karasway.org/ My daughter Kara had to learn ‘Kara’s Way’ and she did!

Robin: Have you read the book ‘The Gift of Dyslexia’ by Ron Davis and Eldon Braun? Your son sounds like a perfect example of the type of dyslexic who can be helped using Davis techniques…the site www.dyslexia.com gives you a great deal of information. On the forum attached, there are several adult dyslexics who are active posters, who have used Davis methods successfully…best wishes!

I hope you won’t be offended by this, butyou have just made a diagnosis and recommended prescription drugs for somebody you have never met, based on a very short post. I can understand being enthusiastic at having found solutions for your situation, but the process just isn’t that simple.

It is good you figured out your daughter’s way, and I wholeheartedly agree that the “gotta learn to live in the real world” is not a good reason to set someone up for failure. Hey, the “real world” can be influenced by what we make of it (tho’ there are some things we don’t have a lot of choice about).

I’m on my way to your website :)

This has got to be frustrating for him — he’s certianly not the “classic dyslexic” with those processing abilities! How are his language skills when the sounds are put together for him? How is his memory for details and thinking ability for putting ideas togehter — if he doesn’t have to read? Does he struggle with language, period, as some kids do — it’s as if “language” isn’t their native language, they think a different way?
It’s hard to tell when depression is behind a kid’s problems, and when it’s a symptom of the situation — and his situation will be changing… but it really sounds like you’ve got a kiddo who’s depressed and withdrawing. How did he do academically at this private school? Was this a school geared to kids struggling with learning? Does he perceive that he has “flunked out” of this school, so is going into the public school with a sense of failure (and oh, by the way, into special ed classes all day so he’s not even “good enough” for public school)?
WHat are his strengths? It sounds like they’re hidden… how can you arrange so they can be brought out and developed?

Mamm:

Try to ask your local LDA chapter or contact Pittsburgh, PA headquarters. Maybe they have chapters of support groups for social purposes. Otherwise, know this: He will get over this tough barrier eventually. When he grows up he will always have LD but he will be able to make a living. Not a good living perhaps: but a living. Get him to try other intrests, and he also needs to be around people like him… The average non-LD kid will never accept him whatever those experts say to you it’s not true. Everyone runs with their own tribe. Blacks run with Blacks, ex-child actors with ex-child actors etc. Comrades in arms you can say.

There is a web-site out ther for teens with Dyslexia. Try plugging that into a search engine. It might help him to know there are others out there. Also to look for books about teens with dyslexia and talk about it with him. Give him a break from all the tutoring for a period of time too, it mgiht help.

I know that having an LD and lots of school difficulties will send children in too depression but could part of the reason be that he is leaving his school?

You said that he has been at private school for 3 years and he is 12 yrs old. I imagine starting a new school and leaving all his friends has put a large amount of stress on him?

What does he say when you talk to him? Does he have any older brothers or sister he might talk to? What about a LD support group for kids his age?? What other things does he do that he is successful at? Sports, music, art? Maybe that would help, if he had something that he was really good at and good start to transfer that into school!

K.

I just wanted to say that I think Kara’s Mom did what all other Mom’s who visit this site do…they provide information based on there own experience. I think that there are many, many children who become depressed because of there school enviroment. Maybe Robin’s son could benefit from medication, who knows but it is just another avenue for Robin to take a drive down!

I visited Kara’s website only to find out that she had died in a auto accident 8 weeks before she is was to graduate high school. I think her Mom is just doing what any Mom would do, make sure another child doesn’t suffer like hers did!

Just a thought!!

K.

Hey Robin.

I remember well the awful year when my 12 year old son with severe depression who couldn’t read beyond the 1st grade level. Every day he came out of school his head was closer to the ground. My son also has severe auditory processing issues which your son does not, apparently.

Anyway, in desperation, we pulled him out to homeschool. We did intensive language remediation…LindamoodBell based working with a knowledgeable dyslexia tutor. Kept him out of school from January to the following August…he had the summer off. Total 6 months approx.

Now, he’s almost 16 and reading. We have every possible accomodation (which he needs, no doubt) and it’still a struggle for him, but…he’s making his way.

The upcoming year is a big one. My focus would be on his reading and making friends with a good group of boys and watching out for recreational drug use (pot). Best wishes.

I have seen a lot of posts here and elsewhere from adults who claim to have been helped by Davis, and many of them appear to have traded whatever problems they had previously (which I do not know so I can’t judge) for aggressive rudeness.
I do not speak merely of standing up for yourself and your rights, which I do myself and do not mind at all, but of people who deliberately pick fights — a couple of posters who ask what purports to be a question, and then when you answer it to the best of your ability and knowledge, spew insults and abuse at you as a know-nothing and a damager of children.

The spelling, grammar, logic, relevance and organization of their posts is also atrocious; since I don’t know at what level they started, I can’t say whether this is an improvement or not. If they started as absolutely unable to read and write, well, even poor spelling is a heck of an improvement on no spelling at all, so I’ll reserve judgement on this; but thought organization and relevant answers to a discussion do not depend on reading skill, and should be better than what I see.

If this is the “success” of Davis’s program, I want no part of it. And thanks to these people, I dis-recommend it to anyone who asks me. If there are any Davis graduates out there who want to prove me wrong by talking over the program like reasonable adults, please post.

God it is a struggle.
We refer to ourselves as parents of “our” kids. Let’s face it we have hard kids to figure out. They are different,they have positives;
creative,strong,emotional,more,just more of everything. When they have a dissapointment,we cringe,we hope like hell it doesn’t set them back.
Hell it could. With “our” kids it could. They are different,they know this. It’s drilled into their heads in so many ways,through out their day. The irony is,mostly they are smart,incredibly insightful. So not only are they different,they are intelligent enough to see this,even if no one calls them a name,or makes them feel bad. That is a BIG “if”. I go on the full plate theory. More and more things get piled up on that plate,until nothing else can fit. If you continue to keep piling things on,that plate eventually spills over,or drops off all together.

How piled high is the plate? Well I suppose it depends on the kid. Some kids might even start out with smaller plates. Some have paper plates,some have cornet ones. (You can really pile the stuff on, and the plate holds up.) Some kids are adding more and more plates to make theirs stronger,some kids have those wicker plate holders. The holders make the plate stronger,able to handle more and more bar b q ribs.

Yeah I know,sorry if refering you, parent, as a wicker plate holder,but you see where I am going,right?

If the plate is spilling ribs,then a holder is needed,OR your kid needs some cornet plates. (yes,the specialist,physician,or counselor)

And even better is cornet,AND a wicker holder. I prefer this,I like it safe.

Then you got to go about the task of eating the ribs,which could be enjoyable,or throwing them away.

It is a process of everyday checking the plate,and getting a sense of how full the plate is. Easier said then done.

What is normal behavior? My oldest is 13,he has testosterone runith over. Is his plate full? Hell yes.

Who is putting stuff on his plate? Friends,Teacher’s, the opposite sex,his little brother,me.
How fast does the plate get too full? Sometimes at the speed of light.

Us parents,of “our ” kids remain ever diligent and worried about “our” kids. When does it stop? I truely couldn’t tell you.
When do we stop trying something new? When do we say,screw it,we tried everything,there is nothing else we can do?I couldn’t tell you that either.

Every step is a mountain to climb,it really stinks. Not only is it similiar to what I went through growing up( something I try to forget),but everything is a fight a battle,so much harder. A person gets tired.
I firmly believe this is how the kid feels too.

A specialist is needed for “our” kids,sometimes a flock of them. BUT they are only cornet. They are going to help strengthen the plate. Us parents provide the wicker plate holder,but the KID has to eat the ribs. It is hard as hell to sit back and watch them eat it,I know.
But not all brands of cornet are the same either. Imperative that you find the brand that suits you the best. (personally I would go with the plastic ones) If he isn’t talking to the therapist,is it because he needs a breather,or is it the therapist? Your the wicker holder,you probably can get a gut feeling,you know,listen to that voice. You been holding the kid’s plate up all this time:-)
Was the three years spent, not worth something? Yes, he is severely dyslexic,he will always be dyslexic. Thank god there is more to being dyslexic then reading. There are good things. You have to use these, to work up an appetite to eat some ribs. Meds? Again,specialists are like cornet over using plain paperplates. If the meds are not working,is it the kid or the meds,or the DR. Prescribing them? Listen to your voice.

Your the holder,you’ve been the holder,keep holding on..

What a great analogy, socks, and something to really stop and think about. I guess too, that thinking like this kinda helps us put all of our interventions into perspective; are we doing too much, not enough, etc. So, like you said, check the plate.

But with all the talk about ribs, when’s the b.b.q.?

I still am at the stage where I believe I can change the plate. I can make it stronger. I don’t want to have to hold it, I want it stronger.

I have had some success and am hoping for more.
I spend alot of time reading the research and there is enough of it to convince me it can be done. I think it is interesting that some say “Well once LD always LD.” I have tremendous respect for you Socks but we don’t agree in this area. I truely think you are a great and knowledgable woman.

While the person dx ld may always learn a little different I think there is just so much variation in the way everyone learns. It is not like our kids become lifelong members of a specific and very different club. They will always have problems with certain things but everyone has problems with certain things. I have just seen too many severely brain injured moved through therapy. Brain plasticity is for real. I think the only negative to this board is a lack of emphasis on remediation and various theapies. I sometimes feel like the lone voice. Yet, the research is out there and is just so compelling. It is fairly easy to access just go to ERIC. The remediation needed to actually change the brain is way more than once or twice a week therapy. It really requires tremendous commitment from the parents. It requires working at something every day in a systematic way. This is not about teaching academics (teaching academics is important but separate) it is making automatic some extremely basic tasks that the average person takes for granted. The academics become easier once the basic skills like visual spacing, visual memory, bilateral motor coordination and auditory perception of the phonomes becomes automatic. (The list of basic skills needed is very long, and the pieces missing are different for each child)

If my son gets older and his plate is not strong I will make sure it doesn’t get too piled up. For now, I will just make it stronger.

Linda,
We don’t really disagree. Check the Adult LD board sometime.
Being an LD adult,I am looking from a different kind of perspective. But this is not something that goes away,if affects everything,your whole personality. Yes,we all have issues,sometimes those issues can be a minor annoyance,sometimes it can be the one rib too much. The best way to explain it I have ever heard, was from a 15 year old dyslexic boy. When asked how it felt to be dyslexic,he said,”well I don’t know how it feels to be not dyslexic,so I really don’t know”. Bottom line is,in the arena of academics we learn to read eventually,we learn to write also. But will we stop being dyslexic? I am going to say no,and I am going to say,I believe that I am who I am because of it.

Linda,

I have been at this changing the underlying processing for over two years now. We have had some tremendous success and, like you, are hoping for more. I held on to the hope for a long time that everything that we were doing would make our son “normal”. I now am at the point of realizing that this is unlikely to happen no matter what we do. I do read posts of people whose children were able to overcome their deficits to a remarkable degree. Shirin’s daughter (she posts here occasionally) is one of them. But even her daughter does not like to read, even though she can.

I think there is a thin line to be walked between accepting “what is, is” and doing what we can to improve the quality of life for our children.

Beth

for some magazine with a little rewrite & cleanup. The “How Full is your Plate” series for parents.

I have two boys,ADHD/Gifted/LD they are doing GREAT!! They really are:-)
We have tried many programs,and will continue to research,learn,and down right experiment. Why not? They did IM last year. I am glad we did the program,not only did it make an impact,it improved their self esteem.

I suppose the problem lies within me. I will never believe that one day,during one program,they will magicaly change. But for me,in the end,I wouldn’t want them to anyway. I also feel that it just adds more ribs to their very full plate anyway. Not the particular program,but the stress involved in the kid wanting to change for no other reason but because everyone else around them thinks they should. I want them to know that they are okay,just the way they are. It took way too many years for me to do this for myself,I want my kids to know this at a much earlier age.

I never want someone to think I am against programs, therapies,etc. They are cornet!

My kids will be taking music lessons this coming year. My oldest wants to learn to play the guitar,my youngest the drums. I think it would be a good compliment to the IM program.They still have lots of ribs on their plates,beside now having added hormones. They will be doing the fastforword next level during language arts this coming school year. Personally until they can eat some of those ribs,I think this is enough for now.

I think it depends on how many ribs are on the plate at the time one decides to do yet another program or therapy. Rewiring is fine,but at what cost?

I made myself chuckle when I was writing. I envisioned Fred Flinstone,and his brontosuarus ribs.This is me most of the time. All of a sudden this incredibly huge rib gets plopped down on the side of your car and you just fall right over
:-)

Thank You:-) I see in picture form,always have. For me, a visual helps.

I’ve been thinking about your post. I too think immersion is very necessary. Since we sponsored a friend of the family for Lindamood-Belltraining and she lived with us for about 8 weeks this summer we joked about it being more like Helen Keller and Ann Sullivan. I had even unconsciously fixed up a little “summer house” in the garden where they were in their own little world. She wasnew to Lindamood-Bell but as a talented and creative teacher I think she made up for the lack of experience. For example she also brought over a kickball and taught him to play. I think he partly learned the vowel circle while kicking and running bases. And we got phenomenal results. And we’ll go back this winter and spend another 4-5 hours a day with her continuing Lips into multisyllable words , and Seeing Stars, and then going into V and V. And I have wondered whether it was necessary to do all of those, but since she’s willing and she’s learning from him as well we’ll go for it. I know this is an opportunity few parents have. And i have thought of it as the kind of repatterning done for stroke and spinal injury patiants to help them to function again. I know i saw the PBS special that showed MRI imaging before and after LMB and after there was activity where there wasn’t before. So we go on strengthening the plate. But my metaphor is more computers. We’re manually programming the downloads that weren’t included in his package, but he’s still a Mac in a Microsoft world. But when he learns how to use that Mac- lookout world!!!!

Well who you ARE is a wonderful mother and nurse. If dyslexia is a part of that, dyslexia is not a bad thing.

I married an amazing, emotionally stable dyslexic. I wouldn’t change a thing about him.

Beth,

Alot of people who are not LD do not like to read. I think that is part of my point. I am not trying to create a perfect person, I don’t believe there is such a thing.
I am just trying to strengthen things from the inside out so that he can do most of the heavy lifting himself.

Linda F

UK Mom,

I have really passed on doing alot of academics with my son this summer. We do the times tables as we go about our day but we don’t really sit and do work sheets as was prescribed by my sons teachers. I know academics is important but until we help him with processing the information it seems that academics is just the wrong emphasis for now.

My son doing a Math work sheet:
Ok, first he has to figure out which problem he is working on because his visual spatial deficits make it hard to even look at the sheet, then he has to figure out if that is a plus or a minus sign also difficult with a spatial deficit, then he has to count on his fingers because the math facts are not automatic, the poor kid is exhausted before he even gets to the work of doing and thinking about the problem.

So I am going after the deficit. It is simply a matter of efficiency. Getting the most bang for the buck. Making the processing easier will make EVERYTHING else easier. I honestly believe that once that is improved the rest will just flow. He is quite good at higher level thinking.

:-) smart woman.

Just wanted to tell you Linda that my son really moved in math after Neuronet helped him with his visual spatial/directionality. He was in resource room for second grade and got tons of math homework. It was overwhelming but she didn’t back down. I finally brought it up at an IEP meeting and she got grief. She was so mad at me that she didn’t give him any. And guess what, he made more progress that semester than any before because of improvement in his visual spatial skills. She moved him out of the resource room for the next year.

We hit some new blocks this spring in third grade in the regular classroom. All my efforts didn’t seem to help. We’re now doing some new exercises in Neuronet that the therapist says will help. I am a little frightened to think that we have done no math this summer. Not a bit. I felt like we weren’t getting anywhere and opted to work on the underlying skills. Frankly, he hasn’t improved that much so I hope I haven’t made the wrong decision. I guess we’ll know come September.

Beth

Sounds like plenty to me. I think you have certain advantages with your kids because of your own LD. My son is the only one in either side of our families. We were sincerely puzzled by him for a long long time.

Still am thinking about the Neuropsych eval so if you get a chance, do email me. I can’t seem to get yours to work.

Also, I am thinking seriously about using the McKay scholarship next year but, as of yet, haven’t figured out a place that would work. Seems like schools here are very expensive. The one I have most consistently heard good things about is $15,000. In addition, it is about as far as you could manage to be from us and still be in the country!

Beth

You didn’t get my email??

Okay let me try again..

Beth,

I also worry that I may make the wrong decision sometimes. I’ll never forget bucking the school district taking my son out of that special reading program and opting to teach him myself. It was so scary but my instincts were right. I worry that I won’t always be so lucky. I just try and research things to death and then try to pull it all together finally going with my gut. I guess we will see in September if I am on the right track with all of this.

It does so often feel like unchartered territory.

If the exercises we are currently doing do not help resolve this visual spatial issue I will look into neuronet. Thanks for that. My son has improved so much at drawing these shapes and tests higher on the TVAS. It will be awhile before I see how it translates to the real academic world.

Linda

I remember from your son’s WISC scores that he scored very high on block design. This was my son’s lowest score. Do you have a pre neuronet score for block design? If you do and it was low, was it neuronet that moved that score?

Yes, I think it was 9. Now it is 12. I don’t know if NN was the cause. It is a little hard to sort out.

Beth

Hello,

I recently was on line reading the bullentin board. when I have come accross what you had to say about your son. My son is 14 and going to attend a Vo-Tech school this fall. We have been told that he is reading at a 3rd grade level although they(educators) have insisted that he is getting all the help he needs.
We recently had him tested, 3 to 4 hours of intense hearing examm, to find our he has CAPD. Now he has been tested with a Neurophyscoligist, that should be interesting ! Sound like your son has similiar problems as mine. Our son was sick with MONO April vacation and never went back to school that year (7th grade) he had a tutor coming every day, his last term on his report cards he received “B’s” it was wonderful! When asked what she was doing, the school said it was because he was sick…HA….she was great and cared for our son with wonderful patience. How was your homeschooling? Did you have to go through your local school board to get permission? We are t hinking of implemmenting a similiarr type teaching at our house to help him along with reading? Can you give me any poiinters?

thanks
Rachel

I think your approach is right. The one thing you might try though instead of work sheets is manipulatives. I know I keep bringng this up but it is what gave my son biggest math breakthru. math not on paper but in chunk values. We happened to find Cusainaire rods -rods with different values and colors that you can use to add and subtract. Instead of written numbers these are are rods representing the numbers. Within days Jack wascounting to a 100 adding and subtracting. I think I’m designing the classroom that has no paper or pencils.Not on purpose -it’s just everything that works is something other than penicl and paper. And do academics involve science , history, geography etc?
Jack can remember these facts so we push there as far as we can go. I think Jack’s lack of phonemic awareness extended to numbers. He could understand values but not connect them with numbers. He still has trouble remembering the names of numbers sometimes but still knows the values… Also we used the staircase to add and subtract. Up 2 steps, down 4 equals… Start at 0 up 2 steps down 2 steps =…