Cheryl,
I have a question - I hope you don’t mind my pulling free advice. I have a going into 4th grade daughter who has multiple learning disabilities. She will be 10 years old in November. She also has SI, motor planning problems, slow processor and ADD (we got it ALL :). However, she is able to compensate pretty well. I have always noticed that she tends to say “bathing soup” instead of “bathing suit”, “yogret” instead of “yogurt” as well as other minor words. She also has trouble with multisyllabic (SP?) words like “organization” and “multiplication”. Most people don’t notice it and considering all her other difficulties (reading and writing), we have been working on those b/c the speech seemed minor. She has never had speech and language therapy. (I think it’s the only therapy we’ve missed)
She has always done things like “whatamacallit” and that “thing” and used to tell me the “word is stuck over here behind my ear, Mom, and won’t come out”. (she was 4ish). Also she would say, “That red thing with the skin, in the basket. When you open it it has seeds inside”. You mean an apple? “Yeah, Mom, very good you got the right answer” :) She had me really fooled for a long time.
It seems, however, that this is happening more often. In fact twice in 2 days she did it this week. The most interesting one was when we were were doing multiplication flash (a relative term) cards and she was so SLOOW and I said “Come on, come on”. She then replied in a very matter of fact way: “Well, mom, it takes me a long time b/c you see the answer is in the file (pointing to her head) and the files are all mixed up and it’s hard to get out”. I acted like this was no big deal b/c I am just so glad is she able to articulate it and feels comfortable enough to explain.
I mentioned this to her OT who replied that she thought it was “fascinating” (oh great) that she is so aware and talks about it like this . She said that it falls under language therapy (word retrieval) and a good SLP would be able to help. My concern is I know that early intervention is best and at 10 years old is it too late to work on this problem? It doesn’t seem to cause a great deal of difficulty in school; however, I do notice that she never raises her hand in class or volunteers an answer. She does well on tests. I plan to talk with her teacher this year b/c Woe to the teacher that embarrasses my daughter b/c she can’t think fast enough and calls on her. Anyway, your thoughts on whether or not S&L would be effective. I’m sure it is not severe enough to qualify for speech at school (she does receive OT both at school and privately) and don’t want to waste $$$. Thanks for your help in advance.
Re: ? for Cheryl - SLP
Personal experience — I also have this kind of retrieval problem, in several languages, and my mother has it badly — it’s sort of a family joke. My daughter has it less but it’s there if you look, and her math facts are not anything like they should be. I’m also an avid reader and so is the rest of the family. Yes, absolutely, remediate all you can; and when you reach the end of remediation, it can be coped with. If you develop a large enough vocabulary you can usually pull down some synonym or other. And the math retrieval does improve with overlearning — practice and keep practicing those addition and multiplication tables long long after she knows them (This is where my daughter lost out with some bad teaching). And if she also has reversals as part of the muddly retrieval, learn to double and triple-check yourself — once the self-checking is automatic it hides the faulty retrieval 90% of the time.
Re: ? for Cheryl - SLP
Geez, I never saw the connection between the retrieval problem and the additional facts… I just wondered if she is getting too old in that it would no longer be beneficial?
Re: ? for Cheryl - SLP
Al,most never too late. Once I get my thyroid medication balanced I’m going to re-start grad school, and I’m 51.
My figure-ground vision difficulty cleared up strangely in my twenties.
So yes, go for remediation, at least until the teens. But when you hit a point when remediation is no longer leading to improvement, give it another month or two, and then work on coping; maybe try remediation again in a year or two.
Re: ? for Cheryl - SLP
Okay, sounds good. My OT is supposed to discuss this w/her SLP partner on Monday. I knw that she has responded beautifully to other therapies .
BTW, I would love to go to school and study all of this stuff b/c I find it fascinating how the brain works in connection to learning. But, first, I have to intervene for her. Good for you for returning and thanks for your help.
Re: ? for Cheryl - SLP
Ok, I am slow this week. It would help to know what she is getting OT for. OT and Speech issues often overlap. It isn’t word retrieval, its sound sequencing, mild apraxia is what it sounds like, related to dyslexic symptoms although not necessarily dysexia. Word retrieval problems present differently. She knows the word, she isn’t getting the sequnce of sounds in the word correct. Could also be related to auditory processing issues. Does she ever misunderstand what you say? Has she ever had auditory discrimination testing done in noise? History of ear or sinus infections? Any spelling or reading issues? You can email me if its easier.
thought for Cheryl
I mentioned that I also have this problem. I know that I know the word — I have a huge vocabulary — but it just won’t come to mind. This happens regularly, often when I’m teaching classes. I just say, well, I’ll come up with it later, and move on. Then when the light does flash in my brain I go back to the point and say the word. Sometimes I have a strong suspicion of the word, even the beginning sound or letters, or a similar word, but it just won’t come out. Going mentally somewhere else for a while is the only way to loosen it up.
I have worse problems with word retrieval, stuttering, small muscle spasms, clumsiness, hyper-clumsiness (moving too fast and causing accidents), and so on when I am tired or bombarded with a lot of demands. I control the small muscles by deliberately moving carefully and much more slowly than I could and by deliberate relaxation, and I control the language by speaking deliberately; in social situations I repeat, stutter, and replace words more. It’s interesting that you relate the language to the muscle issues. While this is true for me with stuttering, I *also* have a small retrieval problem. I don’t know the child but the pattern does sound similar.
Cheryl what is the best way to treat this?
I always assumed my son has word retrival problems, but perhaps it’s mild aapraxia as well. Can you describe the differences between the two and what might be the best type of remediation for each – if possible!
Hope I’m not asking too much, but I always learn so much from you! :-)
Thanks!!!
Re: Cheryl what is the best way to treat this?
Word retrieval is more of a cognitive process rooted in memory. The brain stores vocabulary in places and when speaking or writing ( and even thinking) it goes and retrieves the word. Its like us trying to remember a name. Apraxia is a motor processing issue realted to the sequencing of the movement of speech muscles. Its still mediated (programmed) by the brain but it also involves how the muscles move together. Kids can also have trouble at the level above the muscle level when they try to retrive the memory of sound sequences sound by sound. SO in that case the retrieval is in sound units, not word units and is handles differently by the brain. THe best thing to help it is speech therapy. If its mild you might be able to ask the SLP for home suggestions and come in once inawhile or to give the OT the suggestions.
http://www.wordfinding.com/characteristics.html#top
Here is website that might be useful. Try playing games like “Blurt” also. Do her problems affect her reading? I understand that there are two different parts of the brain that can be involved in word retrieval—one of which does not affect reading while the other does. Personally, I have some mild word retrieval problems but am an avid reader. I always have but really wasn’t aware of it until started dealing with problems with my son. I teach college and now, with age and more stress and less sleep, often have trouble finding the right word (some incident every few classes that I can’t hide easily) It is very manageable though—as long as I don’t take myself very seriously.
I also think your daughter is very self aware. I was aware even as a child that I had some sort of language based issues but never could articulate what the problem was.
Beth