Find this statistic distressing

How did they know or identify who the LD students were to “track” their scores? My son took the Mass. standardized tests in 4th grade without any accomodations(because we insisted) and his scores weren’t segregated out; I think in our state students who take the tests with accomodations have scores that are segregated out(this includes students with mental retardation and autism), but I am not sure.

47% of kids meeting the “standard” — depends on what that is. If it’s some minimal competency, then it’s pretty bad if fewer than half hte kiddos can do it. On the other hand, if it’s a “standard” — and basically you’re trying to be like other kids your age and grade — then 47% of kids doing as well as 50% of the population is nothing to worry about. And hte other schools listed are in even better shape.

Frankly, having only half as many students with identified learning disabilities “meeting the standards” isn’t at all surprising - and using those numbers for that doesn’t generally convince a “regular ed” person that there is a problem with waht we do with LD kids. They look at those numbers and say”gosh, kids with identified difficulties in academics are not as likely to meet an academic standard.” It would be comparable to say “Only half as many kids with identified motor skills difficulties passed the physical education standards.” So I’m supposed to be surprised??? Some kids aren’t going to meet those standards. Would you rather we *not* identify them and work wtih them at their level, or should we dump ‘em all together so the numbers look better? (Please note I’m not saying there’s no problems wiht how we teach LD kids… just that these stats don’t reveal t hem or provide a convincing argument that there is a problem.)

Group statistics can be worse than useless in dealing with LD kids and getting their needs met.

It’s been my experience that schools that focus hard on being “blue ribbon” schools focus very hard on blue ribbon students at the expense of hte rest of ‘em. To compare with athletics again, a team training olympic gymnastic stars is not going to be the best place for the average klutz. The focus is on getting the 55% kiddo up to 85% and getting a few more into the top five percent…not on getting the 2% kiddo to 5% or 22 to 32.
And sometimes the LD stats aren’t even included in Blue Ribbonness so they’re *really* on the bottom of hte priority pool.

The standard is what the child should know in that grade, I always took that to mean ALL students. I agree about the blue ribbon schools because the school with the best results overall had the worst results for LD students. They had 0 percent of the LD kids pass the math portion, less then 10 percent pass the reading, and 18 percent pass the writing portion. My oldest son who happens to be in this district took these tests and I don’t have the results yet but these results scared me because I know he is one of their identified LD students. He was permitted to take all regular ed classes this year, so I figured his scores must of met the standard. I think I need to take a break and quit worrying so much. I have been more worried then usual now that my son is in high school-can’t get these high stakes tests off my mind. He seems to be doing well as does his younger brother so I am gonna just quit stressing for now.

The high stakes tests are measures of student knowledge of the state curriculum in certain subjects, and in Mass. passing (scoring one point above failing) is required in 10th grade English and Math to get a high school diploma, so in Mass. they measure minimal competency. I disagree that it is not a goal for kids with LD(and other disabilities) to pass these tests; I think it is a challenge to the teachers, but one that I as a parent support. For the few LD kids in a class there also are several kids like my younger son who are very high-achievers and require NOTHING SPECIAL from the teachers in order to learn and do well, thus freeing up teacher time. Certainly in my state a far bigger problem than kids with special needs is the high-failure rate of students who are African American and Latino.

SAR, the ISAT and PSEA are also based on state standards what each child is expected to know at the grade level being tested. That is why the numbers distressed me, even for the schools that did well. If the standard is defined as the minimum the child should know for the grade (meeting standard) then I feel all students should be able to achieve this level. Our African American students also scored lower then their white conterparts but at least in our immediate area they scored higher then the state average. What do these results reflect for the no child left behind guidelines, if ALL (capable of cognitively) students can’t pass. I am realastic and realize that not all students will be able to pass, there are students whose abilities do not allow them to. These students deserve to be taught to the best of their ability and given the chance to achieve their maximum potential. I think there are wonderful teachers out there more then capable of teaching students but the system does not allow them to do it. Education as we all on this board no very well is not a one size fits all—how to correct this I do not know.

I really hate the tests for the reasons you mention. All kids do not fit in the same “box”. Why do they all have to pass the same test? I want to say, “Who CARES?” whether they master Algebra or not! I have a master’s, a productive life, do our taxes, balance our checkbooks and budget, and I can do all that with elementary level math. It makes me sick that some LD kids in my state will be denied a diploma because they can’t pass Algebra. Now we have a four part exit exam and they must pass all four parts!

I do believe in minimum competencies, certainly. And there can be a differentiation in college prep requirements as far as I’m concerned. But I agree that there is a problem when HALF the kids can’t graduate because of a test score!

Janis

SAR, here in Illinois ALL students take the ACT as part of the PSAE whether they plan on going to college or not that means more stress for these kiddos. Although Algebra is not listed as a requirement for graduation (requirement 2 semesters of math) Algebra of course shows up on the assessment exams the students are given. The one nice thing our school does to help is they have an algebra class offered over 2 years instead of 1. It is the same exact class as Algebra 1 but taught over 2 years, it is not a watered down class and is considered a regular ed class. This helps some of the students who might not otherwise of been successful in the class. My son is going this route and he is picking it up fairly easily because they go at his pace—slow. Most his other classes go at a really fast pace and are geared for kids who pick things up quickly. Yesterday marked 1 full week in school and they have already had numerous tests and assignments. I am very proud of my son because although he is not doing stellar he is holding his own in these quick moving classes. His averages so far are 70 in intergrated science, 75 in Lit, and 76 in social issues. He has chosen not to use any of his accomodations yet because he wants to test himself to see how he can do. His resource room has been very helpful as has the Lit class because the first unit is on study skills. They are going over note taking, listening skills, essay writing, organization and how to take a test. I never considered this part of Lit but that is part of the curiculim here.

Yes, teaching can make a difference. But, LD does not go away, even with good teaching. If LD were not real, then we might expect most LD students to pass. They don’t. The cognitive differences and deficits in auditory processing, sequential processing and working memory are real and do effect the individual’s functioning in the academic arena. Oftentimes processing speed is much slower and less efficient, rendering timed standardized tests very difficult.

These are minimum competency tests, not the SATs…I expect the teachers to teach the students to pass, including students of color and with LD. I have met too many teachers who blame the students for doing poorly, instead of looking at the effectiveness of their methods of teaching. In my state, Mass., the tests are largely untimed.

Our state standards are very aggressive. When they first wrote our standards my GATE child was a 7th grader. He always tested in 99% in math. The grade level math standards, I read each one, appeared to be accelerated by 2 years above and beyond what we had ever taught previously, even including going back to my day as a student in the wonderful 50’s and 60’s when public education was NOT under the intense fire it is under today.

I believe our standards are very high and really do not represent a minumum, even though we might like to think ALL students can and will achieve them. The standards are not now or ever written by child development specialists, they are written by content area specialists who would like to believe that all American children will have a shot at college and at competing with their colleagues from other nations who do stratify and group children by ability, by high school, if not sooner.

Good teaching will bring things up to the point when we reach a ceiling. I don’t know what will happen when we have maxed out. Until the standards movement, we Americans were not as intense on education as some of our world neighbors. We seemed as a nation to want “milk and cookie” children who were not pushed to achieve like many Asian children are from almost birth.

We seem to be adopting that model of push, push, push, strive to get into the best, to get all day kindergarten, to push down curriculum lower and lower. We are excluding low average and below average children from success in this atmosphere. I personally don’t see the all fire need to push everyone this hard.

It is bordering on ridiculous. I am vacationing on the east coast. Huge numbers of the summer workers at the shops and restaurants are from
Eastern Europe, they are everywhere!! American teens are not taking summer jobs like my generation did, the resorts cannot find enough workers from our high school/college age population, everyone wants their child in a “program,” unprecedented numbers of our youth get all the way to college graduation without having held a job.

There is more to education of people to become productive citizens than just high academic standards and scores. Our colleges are the best in the world, our nation HAS compteted very successfully in the world market, people need to know more than algebra and calculus to succeed and thrive. We have compensated for an imagined shortcoming and we may well pay a price somewhere down the line.

These standards are intense, read them sometime.

I have read the standards and I agree they are very rigorous, the problem is that you may know that and I may know that but our students are still held to the standard. I agree also that they are pushing things down way too early and our kids are not being allowed to be kids. It use to be that you could not go to college and still make a descent living but now it seems impossible (without working more then 1 job). When my dad was growing up, it was acceptable to drop out of school and go into the military, which he did. When he got out he did not go back to school he became a truck driver. He was able to raise 7 kids on that salary-I don’t think he would be able to do that today. So we as parents are left to worry about what the future holds for our kids who are “square pegs trying to fit into round wholes.” It is not that my son does not learn, it is that he does not learn in the traditional school way. Most adults who talk to him see him as very intelligent although his school work does not show it. He is very creative and very understanding which I think are outstanding qualities to have but if he can’t read at the expected level or do XYZ that is expected how far will he really get?

I forgot to ask do you teach here in Illinois? Northern or southern portion? I was not intending to say Illinois schools are bad because for the most part I am really very pleased, I was just shocked to see the numbers because the schools appear so good, especially in my district. The high school my son attends has a 92.5 % graduation rate, of those 86 % go on to college of some sort, their ACT composite score was 23.5, pretty impressive numbers. Both of my boys with LD have really progressed in this system, like I said I just expected the numbers to be higher. We were previously in ND and the district we were in there did not seem able to deal effectively with LD kids and they made very little progress. Since getting here in the 2000-2001 school year the oldest has improved his reading level by almost 4 grades, his math skills by 3, his social studies by 4, and his science by 2. As you can see in 2 school years he has had some great remediation. His younger brother has went from only being able to read 2 words to a solid 2nd grade reading level, his math skills are now age and grade appropriatte, and his speech and social skills are improving daily. Since both my boys have made so much improvement here I expected the LD population here to score better on the achievement testing is all.

I find my 5th grader able for the first time to articulate his issues and notice what works and doesnt work for him. I see that as a huge jump, and it gives me hope-so does what your son is doing-holding his own, on his own!

These kids need intense therapy and systematic teaching approaches for very specific areas of deficits. Instead, unfortuantely, it seems all they get is worksheets.
Specific deficits can be improved to the point where they are no longer a major hinderance. In my perspective that means they have, from a functional standpoint, gone away. If a child would no longer test as LD the LD has gone away.
There are many kids who have slight deficits that thrive in school and are never labeled LD. If you can remediate the specific deficits to get a labeled Ld child to this level has it not in effect gone away. If a child is struggling in reading and tests extremely low on phonemic awareness, is then remediated through a good systematic phonemic awareness based program and develops excellent phonemic awareness has it this deficit not gone away. I just described my son.

I think the schools do an absolutely awful, almost non existant job at remediating deficits.

Children are an amazing mix of gifts and deficits. It truely takes understanding the area where the breakdown is occuring and addressing it either through early remediation or coping strategies.

I have several very good friends who struggled through out school only to surpass everyone around them in the outside world. One has a terrible problem with her memory, yet, she is a sales genius. Her memory is a minor inconvenience as she has learned coping strategies that make her one of the most organised people I know.

Our High School also offers the Algebra over two years but then the student must go on to Geometry and take it in one year. It is almost like they don’t think that anyone who is taking Algebra over two years is going to go on to a four year college. This isn’t a problem for my kids but I’m sure it is for other LD kids.

Helen

Since we now know that the brain rewires itself in a different pathway if one is not connected, one can expect remarkable growth if given the right stimulus. Despite the fact that the neural connection will not be as “efficient,” the neuron sheath will continue to harden and make the electrical connection faster & faster. So, while not 100%, we may certainly expect 25-60% growth in many people. There are many other factors involved: other neural connection disorders, emotional make-up, home environment, teaching styles and environment, to name a few.

So, while LD is certainly “real” on some level, we must know more about the brain to know just how “real” it is. The tough issue about accommodations/
modifications hasn’t fully been addressed in order to allow students with LD to demonstrate their knowledge on standardized tests or alternate assessments.

Right now, today, we don’t even know what is yet possible in teaching and learning for students with neurological difficulties.

“Dittos don’t grow dendrites!”

Thanks Marycas! Yes, all my sons changes have been astounding to see. I hope your son continues to a make the same growth. Last night at open house I was floored when a teacher said “Mike is a model student, he comes to class prepared, ready to work, and stays focused the whole class.” I am sure his teacher in he had back in sixth grade would of thought this teacher was on drugs. His sixth grade teachers assessment was “he is lazy, unmotiviated, unorganized, needs medicating, and serious counseling if you ever want him to do well. The sixth grade teacher considered my son to be unreachable and unteachable. I post my postitive stories here because I want other parents to know that there is hope and they should never give up, also the experts are not always right. Good luck to you and your son this school year.

Helen, found out last night at open house that the kids taking algebra 1A this year will sign up for geometry next year, then finish their algebra as JR.s, this has something to do with the ACT, I am not sure I like this sequence—could be confusing. I am hoping they offer the 1B over the summer so my son can take it and stay in sequence.

Lisa,

The SAT covers through Geometry the ACT covers through Trig. My guess is it is the SAT they are talking about. Kids take the SAT in there Junior year. My older son took Algebra in 9th grade. With him 9th grade was the year from hell. At the age of 17.5 he is now delightful! He got a D the 1st semester and a C- the second semester. We started tutoring for math in Jan. of 9th grade which he fought. He is still going to the same tutor. Last year 11th grade he made his own apt. and drove himself there. The tutor also handled Chemistry. After 10th grade Geometry he took the whole year of algebra over during the summer. I decided it would be more benificial for him to take Alegbra 1 over just before taking Algebra 2. He found the teacher not helpful with his understanding of the material so he went to the tutor during the summer as well. In 11th grade he took Algebra 2. I decided it would be more benificial for him to take Alegbra 1 over just before taking Algebra 2. The thing about summer school is that it is only 6 weeks. If a student is having trouble in Algebra 1A the pace of the summer might be too much. A friend of mine son took Algebra 1A in 9th and got an A. He did 1B in summer school and did so-so ending with a C. He went into Geometry and ended up mothing back to 1B. Each child is different. It also depends on the skill of the teachers involved.

Helen

I finished universtiy and started teaching in the early seventies.
At thst time people were trying to reshape the entire political and social systems, and education along with them.
On teacher in Washington DC was quoted as saying that if experimentation and change to all the new programs in existence made for a good school system, then after twenty years DC must have the best system in the world. (In case you don’t know, the opposite is true; the system has been managed chaotically for several years and is one of the worst performing in the US. There are notable individual exceptions but the system as a whole is having trouble.).
Here in Quebec, one education author wrote in the eighties that, after fifteen years of experimentation with every possible new idea, at least we know what does NOT work.
Many school systems dropped formal testing, allowed/encouraged grading to be based on teachers’ creative methods, and dropped formal high school graduation requirements. The most extreme I know of was the Ontario government, which for a time in the late seventies decided that passing *ANY* twenty-seven high school courses would be sufficient to earn a high school diploma, and there were no exit tests. If you wanted to take five years of Latin, five years of Greek, calculus and physics and chemistry, that was OK, and if you wanted to take arts and crafts and home ec and phys ed that was OK too and you got the identical diploma. That experiment only lasted a few years, but a whole generation of students including my young relatives suffered from zero expectations during that time. It is notable that during this time of openness and creativity, test scores took a nosedive. At the same time as normed tests were dropping like a rock, there was in-class grade inflation until B is a low average grade in many places. Unfortunately it seems that far too many teachers, administrators, and guidance counsellors, as well as students and parents, took the unprofessional attitude that freedom from outside restraints meant you could forget all the hard work. (Also the downfall of whole-language programs)
In the 1980’s people took a hard look at the system and realized that a few outside expectations are a *good* thing. If you are a teacher and can give any grade you want to at your own whim, it’s really hard to justify giving a C when an irate parent is going to sue because you’re keeping his kid out of Harvard. Why not give the A, if it’s all subjective anyway? Why require any assignments or tests at all, since you’re all getting A’s anyway? Having some sort of outside standard to point to, that the kid will have to do this and that, and pass such and such an exam, is a reality check that allows teachers to hold some ground, to say that their work and judgements are indeed meaningful.
I was tutoring several students in a school system that had very low expectations in the early 80’s. The province of British Columbia had had provincial exams until the seventies, and had dropped them with the “modernization” movement of the time. After around ten years of seeing standardized scores drop, university entrants worse prepared every year, and rural schools dropping even further behind urban schools, the province decided to reinstate the provincial exams — thorough, essay-style exams — in about 1984 or 1985. At that time I predicted that it would take five or six years for the effects to percolate down to the junior high level. I was wrong; it took eighteen months. A student I tutored for several years came with the usual watered-down program the first two years; suddenly the year after the senior exams were first re-instituted in Grade 12, he came to me with a much better program in Grade 8 — it had occurred to the teachers that they actually had to teach the material every year in order to meet that final standard.
The two provinces that kept the provincial exam system even through the seventies were Newfoundland and Quebec. Newfoundland has other problems, economic and cultural and geographical, that make it a difficult situation; but Quebec has consistently scored the highest across the country in nationwide tests, notably this year in math scoring about eight points higher than the next highest.
In England, some places kept the junior-high entrance test, the “eleven plus” and others got rid of it. A major study comparing open and traditional classrooms (excellent study, one of the few really scientific education measures I’ve ever seen) found that whether open or traditonal, the *major* factor in the students’ academic achievement level was whether or not the district had the tests. (once that difference was factored out, traditional did better in general.)

Those are just a few examples, but it’s been pretty thoroughly demonstrated that having a well-designed outside standard improves academic teaching and learning greatly. And schools are at least theoretically academic institutions, and they aren’t very good at anything else, so why not work towards being good at academics?

Then we get the question of who has to master what, and things get sticky. I happen to teach math. I also had a student whom I deliberately advised to ignore her math and concentrate on her other subjects. She didn’t need to pass the math to get her diploma under the rules of the time, and she had such a terrible previous math background with four years of non-teaching substitutes that trying to pass math was a lost cause. I would *like* to see a system where everybody gets at least a chance to pass a real algebra course. Unfortunately what I’m seeing is the algebra course being watered down to nothing so that everyone will pass it, and that’s kind of the opposite of the goal. My daughter had a geometry course in Grade 10 that would have been good for Grade 8, but stopped at the chapter where the real Grade 10 work started. The county had decided to stop it there because of the regulation that everyone had to pass geometry or at least some class with that name on it.

So we have the conflicting forces of having a test to pass to encourage people to reach up to a higher standard, and everyone wanting to be kind and make it easier for people having a hard time. No easy answers. If you don’t require the test, then standards drop and everyone gets less teaching, not a benefit to anyone. If you do require it, then some people will fail, and then what can you do to help them? I personally favour having different kinds of graduation — people who graduate with a diploma in auto mechanics, for example, are badly needed and deserve respect for their hard work — but the problem is to avoid the rating of one diploma or another as second-rate. Not an easy issue.

Victoria I think you hit the nail right on the head. What is wrong with being a plumber, automechanic, or the like? All these jobs are required. Just because a person is a Doctor does not mamke them a better person then the mechanic, oh that is naive thinking on my part isn’t it. Both my boys work really hard to get the grades they get in school, what is wrong with getting a C? The problem of course is that these grades will not get you into college and now a days without a college degree you can not get a job that pays well and soon not a job at all if things keep going the way they are. Sorry did not mean to vent it just seems to be getting really crazy.

My plumber makes good money. I know—I have paid him many times with my new but cheap house. He told me that there is a shortage of plumbers–people don’t want to get that dirty. And try getting an electrician where I live.

College degrees are often necessary to move up the laddar in companies but they certainly aren’t necessary for the trades. Unfort. my son has a hard time telling right from left so a plumber he won’t be. I am just working at broadening his ideas about what people do after high school. He has told me that you have to go to college or you will work at McDonalds. Now I never told him that but in our very middle class neighborhood and school he has picked it up.

Beth