I know I sound like a broken record but . . .

You can get decoding/word attack from the WIAT. The trick is to use the same standardized assessments every 2-3 years so that you can really see what the growth has been. Compare standard scores (100 is average on many/most tests) because these scores are most accurate and easiest to work with statistically. Percentages are okay, too. (Stay away from grade equivilants, much as you’ll be tempted to use them…) Watch using individual subtests to prove your points because one subtest may have a reliability coefficient (margin for error) or 20-30%; whereas, a cluster of subtests averaged into one score should produce a reliability coefficient of
90%+.

I know this is confusing and it is why some parents choose to pay an advocate for some help, or have a private consultation with a psychologist.

I hope this helps. If not, ask again. Without lots of study, this kind of thing can be really confusing.

Believe it or not I understand what you are saying with the subtests vs. clusters.

Okay, I do have a WIAT from 3 years ago as well as one done this past May.

What WIAT cluster scores do I look at to get a picture of decoding and word attack?

I forgot to mention Gray’s Oral Reading Test too. But this is the first one he’s ever had. Three years ago he had the Woodcock instead.

You are looking for all the reading scores. There should be a word attack subtest, but depends on what subtests were administered. I don’t have my WIAT stuff at home.

10-yrs old (5th grade)

WIAT (standard scores)

Basic reading: 95
Mathmatic reasonining: 94
Spelling: 89
Numerical operations: 108
Listening comprehension: 111
Written expression: 97
Reading comprehension: 91

GORT

Rate: 8
Accuracy: 6
Fluency: 6
Comprehension: 10
SRQuo: 88

WRAML

Story memory: 100
Sentence memory: 85
Number/letter memory: 80
VERBAL MEMORY SCALE: 85

Picture memory: 105
Design memory: 95
Finger windows: 110
VISUAL MEMORY SCALE: 102

Verbal learning: 105
Sound/symbol learning: 115
Visual learning: 70
Learning scale: 96
General memory index: 93

It is the Basic Reading score that tells ability to read individual words. The WIAT (first version) didn’t have a pseudo-word segment, but the WIAT II does have it.

You child’s basic reading score is average. So, unless (s)he has an IQ score of 110-115 (depending on your state’s eligilibility requirements), you child has average reading ability for a child their age of average intelligence.

Now, newer versions (WIAT II, for example) include pseudo-word tests which can be helpful in discerning how a person thinks about saying the letter combinations they see (because this is what we do when we come to a word in reading that we don’t recognize).

Here is a little Power Point from the makers of the WIAT that tell the difference between the WIAT and WIAT II (newer version).

www.psychcorp.com/sub/resource/ library/ppt/WIATT-II.ppt

Very interesting about the WIAT vs. WIAT-II, thanks.

Although, this is the answer I was not hoping to hear, that his reading skills are okay. I know this child cannot read independently and his self esteem is suffering because of his inabilities. He knows he’s not reading and he really beats himself up for it.

Then there’s the spelling issue. I just don’t know where to even start with that. From posts I have read here, spelling is not a huge concern for the schools as far as remediation.

In no way am I lashing out at you. I most certainly appreciate your advice!!!! I am just so tired of the “he is not struggling enough,” (enough to meet the numbers) yet the child calls himself stupid and needs counselling in order to deal with life in the classroom. I just can’t stand it anymore. I can’t stand by and watch this happen. The bottom line is there is just no winning in this situation. Parents are basically on their own if they want to get an appropriate education for their child even though they continue to foot the bill for an inappropriate education.

When was the last IQ test? Was there a big discrepancy between the Verbal IQ and the Performance IQ? Was there a lot of scatter on the subtests?

His strong listening comprehension ability is one standard deviation discrepant from his measured basic reading and reading comprehension. That says he has a high-average comprehension when listening to things (stories, discussions) but is just average when he reads himself.

Sometimes, too, these problems stem from other things. I see kids who struggle to read because their emotions keep their ability/achievement suppressed. Sometimes it is not a learning disability that is the primary condition affecting learning. Does your child have any emotional issues? (Of course, don’t share if you don’t wish to do that.) If so, know that sometimes the child’s lack of resilience makes steady progress very difficult.

I know this is frustrating. Finding just the right solution is time consuming and no two situations seem to be exactly the same.

Lulu, I KNOW you aren’t a big advocate of technology. But what about considering books on tape for him for long assignments in say, Science, Social Studies, or when he has to read a large book for comprehension, but at the SAME time remediating his inidivual skills. My daughter, age 9, has good comprehension, but very slow, she will never keep up (it’s showing already at the beginning of 4th). I am considering books on tape so that she can get through the volume of reading she has - but not for her reading comprehension books. My daughter knows she is capable of doing the work, but just “slower” than everyone else. Not fun, but a fact. Just a thought. At this point, it sounds like you need to do something that might help his confidence.

///

How very interesting about the listening comprehension vs. basic reading. He most definitely gets a lot from oral presentations yet he has also been diagnosed as having auditory processing deficit.

The last WISC-III was done with the WIAT, WRAML and GORT and the discrepency is gone. VIQ= 107 and PIQ= 106. When this was done 3 years ago there was a huge discrepency VIQ= 113 and PIQ= 84. So something definitely clicked within the past three years but it was not reading or spelling skills.

Three years ago the basic reading= 98, spelling= 103 and listening comp.= 89. So listening comp. went up but reading stayed the same and spelling took a nose-dive.

I understand the points you made about the emotional end of things possibly holding him back. He is seeing a private psychologist for anxiety, but the anxiety seems to center around academics and his failures in the classroom. Otherwise, he is a normal, everyday kid, very active, interested in everything a little boy would be interested in, happy and I think well adjusted socially.

The psychologist even agrees that had he been in the proper placement at school from the beginning (self-contained), instead of inclusion, his struggles and failures might not be as obvious to him, therefore would not be causing the grief it has to this point.

Our district follows the inclusion model, and believes in placing children of different abilities within the same classroom; with the exception of the gifted/talented children who are placed in clusters. My son happened to be placed in a classroom that had a gifted cluster last year (group of 8 gifted children with the remaining 10 being either sped to average ability). His disabilities were glaring in this classroom. When I asked whose bright idea this was, they said that they felt that the gifted/talented students higher-level thinking skills would have a positive impact on my son. Unfortunately they were wrong and his self esteem crumbled.

Before the school year ended last year, I checked with the principal to make sure he would not be placed in a gifted cluster classroom this year. Sure enough, he was slated for the same environment. I said absolutely not. They just don’t get it.

So, what you are saying is that his scores do not qualify him for actual remediation? He does meet the requirements for SLD in reading comp., written expression and shows processing deficits in memory, organization and visual perception. (All of this is according to the school eval). The neuropsych found the auditory processing problems.

Recent subtest scatter (WISC) was not as dramatic as three years ago. This year: Arithmetic (7), Digit Span (8) and Symbol Search (7) were the only scores under 10. The rest of the scores were 10-14.

Thanks for the advice, but that’s what we are doing already. He gets his novels on tape to keep up with the class and shortened assignments and spelling lists (which he resents).

I think if we could concentrate on the decoding and word atttack instead of only working around them, we would see much better results with him.

Here’s one thing we ran into with books on tape (don’t know if its true in all cases). The tapes did not match the text word for word so it quickly became confusing to use the book and tapes together. So, he would just listen to the tapes since reading was so laborious and the volume of the assignment so great.

But then the teacher threw him a real zinger. After reading the novel (a Little House on the Prairie book) she gave them an open book test!!!!!!! He was completely lost and of course failed the test. She then had the nerve to write on the test in big red letters, “THIS WAS OPEN BOOK!!!!!!” When I spoke to her about it, she said she forgot he was a book on tape kid. Nice, huh?

LuLu,

With his low scores being Arithemitic and Digit Span I think you should look into getting Brain Builder. It works on “in auditory and visual sequential processing skills and short-term memory.” It seems like it would be a perfect fit for you son’s low areas.

http://www.rmlearning.com/MemorySoftware.htm

Helen

Thanks Helen. I was looking at that about a month ago and thought the same thing but I wasn’t sure since I have no professional background for recommending programs.

Thank you for confirming this. I will definitely check it out.

Sometimes it can be the tester. I hate to say this, but I’ve seen testers invalidate by not timing when they should, not being meticulous, cannot say the nonsence word patterns themselves and mark everything as accurate, etc. (They just aren’t good testers.) Why don’t you ask for an outside evaluation? Use the same IQ but get someone outside of the school district to examine achievement using different instruments:

Math - Key Math Test (Not sure you want to test this but listed it in case it comes up at a later time.)

Reading - Woodcock Reading Mastery Test - Revised It will be the Word Attack and Letter-Word ID subtests to which you will want to pay close attention. They are what qualify for services in basic reading skills rather than reading comprehension.

Written Language - Test of Written Language (If you want that tested, too.)

Don’t bother with the Oral Expression or Listening Comprehension again because it is really not something for which I think he will qualify.

Could you have a teacher from another school district do an informal test (reading inventory or something) and use that as evidence that more testing is needed? Then, take the results to them—document your meeting well and let them know you are documenting it well.

If they then say say “no,” to an outside evaluation:

Ask them, “If a reputable psychologist tests my son and finds that he is eligible for reading, will you then pay for testing?”

Lulu,

Another concept to think about is the testing environment. If I am not mistaken your son has ADHD. When testing the environment will be one-on-one, usually in a small room, with little or no distractions. Many children with ADHD tend to score higher as a result of this type of environment. This may prove your point that your son needs an environment with less distraction and more one-on-one instruction. Use the psychoeducational evaluation as documentation and point out that it states that these conditions existed during testing and that your son performs better under these conditions. As a special education teacher I see this all time with children who have ADHD; the same situation that your son is in:high test scores but low classroom performance. And why? Testing environment.

Laurie

Thank you soooooo much. This is exactly what I need!!! I know its not wise to go into the meeting asking for these tests exactly, but now I know what I need.

I’m not really looking to test, test, and test but if they refuse to consider the outside neuropsych’s findings and recommendations, at least I know where to take it from there. Also, I believe his decoding is the base problem here and its not going to be remediated if I don’t insist on it. Math is definitely becoming an issue and his written expression and spelling really scare me.

But above all, I want him to read independently. He doesn’t have to be an ace or speed reader, but if he can’t read, I fear his future is limited. In that case, his parents have truly failed him.

Thank you very much for the info.

Thanks Laurie. Actually my son has not been diagnosed with ADHD. When we went through the evaluation process for it, he scored in the average range. The inattention, according to the pediatrician and the psychologist seem to stem from anxiety. When he is confronted with things he does not understand or reading words he does not know (and because he can’t sound out) he almost short-circuits because he becomes overwhelmed and then shuts down which blossoms into inattentive behaviors.

Perseverance for academics is very poor and the frustration level is what we are dealing with. Now, sports or play of any kind is a whole ‘nother story. He will not give up on those things.

So, he most definitely would benefit from such an environment. Your point is VERY well taken and I will most definitely bring this up in our meeting on Wednesday. Previous attempts at trying to prove that he needs this environment have been unsuccessful. But, I do not give up easily.

Thanks again.

Your son is scoring average/normal reading at Grade 5/age 10 level. That should mean a 1000 to 2000 word vocabulary, complex sentences, and a fair number of inferences. Yet you say — and yes, I DO believe you, please don’t take this as an argument — that he cannot read independently at all.

Something is wrong here. I smell a fish. These two things cannot coexist.

We do see some weird discrepancies at lower levels, where a kid gets a high score through memorization but doesn’t actually understand anything at all and then collapses later, but this is impossible at the level where you are.

Three possible causes for this situation
(a) too-high demands on the student
(b) the test is not testing what it claims
(c) the tester is not doing the job properly

(c) is surprisingly common. I would strongly suspect this, but I would like to eliminate the other two possibilities first.

(a) I know from your previous posts that your son has been taught decoding, but still finds it dificult and avoids it. Since decoding is a skill, it must be learned with practice. And fluency, confidence, and independence all *require* practice. The downfall of many well-meant programs is a lack of practice on suitable materials.
When you say he cannot read independently at all, I have to ask you: on what level? Can he read a Grade 3 reader by himself? Can he read a children’s book,Grades 2-3, like Berenstain Bears independently? Can he read a first reader or primer, of the Dick and Jane sort, without help? Yes, these are not terribly interesting or exciting, especially at his present age. But this level of work is a necessary stage in the learning process, and it’s a step he missed.
First things first, I would want to know, can he read *anything* independently, and if so, what level? If he has achieved a 2.5 independent/confident/fluent reading level, and his schoolwork is 5.5, no wonder he is throwing his hands in the air and walking away in frustration. If this is the case, he needs practice designed for readers on *his* level. All the force in the world will not make him a 5.5 independent reader if he hasn’t passed through 2, 3, and 4. Sometimes you can use old reading texts, and with older students you may look for what are called high-low books — high interest, low vocabulary; but be careful with these — you need a progressive program that leads up through the levels, not a scatter of separate books. I use old readers but promise students this is only a review and they aren’t stuck here forever. They see fast progress, two or three grades in a year, and start to get into it.
If he *cannot* read anything independently, then he needs to start at level zero and work up. (And there is something very very fishy about that test in this case.) You start with sentences printed or made up of word cards from his known vocabulary, and then you work into the lowest level of a progressive program by teaching the vocabulary (*with* sounding out) step by step, and then work up through it.
People often argue about this plan. (Parents, teachers, and students themselves if they have bought into the school’s ideas) They say he’s in Grade 5, how can he ever catch up? If he goes back to kindergarten he won’t be able to do the work in his class! My answer: Is he able to do the work in his class now? Is he catching up now, or falling further behind? Has trying to force him to do grade level worked, or has it made him fear and hate reading? If it’s failed already, why do you expect more of the same to work? If you try to force grade level work on him for five more years and it works the same way, where will he be? Which will move you farther ahead, failing Grade 5 three *more* times, or passing Grades 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 in order, reviewing two levels a year?

(b) Tests not testing what they purport to test. If the test is *only* a test of vocabulary, and/or *only* of decodable individual words, and/or *only* fill-in-the-blanks with multiple choice, and so on, then it isn’t testing ability to read connected running text. If the test is given orally, or modified to read the selections to him orally, then it isn’t testing his reading ability. In order to find his ability to read independently, you need a test with readings of at least a 200-word paragraph at a time, and questions that go beyond the factual recognition level of thinking. A student who cannot read *at all* can pass grade 3 level by recognition and imitation of patterns — I know, I taught a total non-reader, with good Grade 3 marks, to read in Grade 4. I don’t know the test you had so you have to ask other users if indeed it had connected text in it, and if so how much and whether there is a separate subtest on this. (And ask the tester if the test was modified by reading parts to him.) The high school SAT’s for example have at least one section where you read an article of around 1000 words and answer five to ten questions on it; this is what you need to test, on appropriate levels of course. I seem to remember that the elementary school CAT had a section like this many years ago (mid 80’s) so that might be one to look at.

(c) Testers not doing things properly. This is one I run into *all* the time.
A college giving a computation test for remedial math and the Disability Support Service undercutting itself by having a *computation* (not problem-solving) test done with calculators, kind of a waste of time. A teacher giving out a sample test, with answers, on Tuesday that is identical to the *real* test on Thursday except for a few letters changed; a school where the principal and several teachers gave out “practice” work that was identical to the state evaluations three days later (in this case there were actually firings, but that’s rare). Teachers allowing formula sheets and open books on tests that are not supposed to be open. Students who ask for “help” on a test and expect to be given the answers as a matter of course — and far too many teachers fall for it. Any good teacher can go on for hours with examples of ways to undercut your own testing.
If your son takes an individual test and the tester feels sorry for him, it’s amazing how many testers will cheat for the student — read things to him, explain questions he doesn’t understand, and so on. Most of them of course are in denial — of course they administered the test according to the rules, they just “helped” him with a question he didn’t understand, just showed him how to get started, just read him the directions, just made him comfortable and eased his anxiety, just gave him more time because he was so nervous and had a hard time starting … well, since it’s his anxiety about reading independently that’s the problem here, they’re undercutting themselves and harming him by reporting incorrectly about his independent skills, but they won’t admit it.
Have you ever sat in on his testing? If not, it would be a good idea. Read the test administration directions yourself. The test itself is confidential, but the administration directions are public, and you’re paying for it so you have a right to know what’s going on. And make notes about any and all “help” given. Then if it’s really enough to change the test results markedly, demand either a rebate or a retest under proper conditions.

Do let me know what you find out about this discrepancy — I get interested when I smell a fish.

LuLu,
I think Victoria is on to something…how did the school explain the results of the Gray Oral Reading Test? It can’t be faked, as the student needs to read passages of different levels aloud, and answer questions about each. His scores in accuracy and fluency(?rate +accuracy) are below the mean of 10(scores from 8-12 are within the average). Would he qualify for remedial reading at your school? Our elementary school uses full inclusion, so help in reg. ed. like remedial reading is more useful than fighting for changes thru the IEP.

Ya know, I thought the same thing. Things just don’t add up.

What I meant by not reading “at all,” is that left to read independently, he cannot do it. He relies heavily on support for correction and really does not get “how” to sound out. He still has trouble telling me, for example, what “sound” the letter “h” makes, and is big on leaving off or misspeaking suffixes. Yet his spelling is phonetic, wrong, but phonetic for the most part.

The majority of what he CAN read is by recognition. Sight words though, were an absolute nightmare for him in K and 1st. He could not even consistently remember the word “the” until the middle of third grade. Sometimes he got it, other times he would look at it like he had never seen it before.

As far as what reading level he is at, I honestly have no idea. He basically avoids it at all costs. He had to read novels for fourth grade; several of the Little House on the Prairie series, Old Yeller, an Abraham Lincoln book (the title escapes me). The volume of reading was insane, so we had to read most of it to him in order to keep up. Asking for extended time meant that he was unable to participate in class discussions, worksheets and activities centered around the book.

The neuropsych’s diagnosis is: “Marked dyslexia: combined dyseidetic, dysphonetic and mnestic subtypes are evidenced. Word order confusion, dyscalculia, spelling dyspraxia, written language difficulties, reading difficulties and central auditory processing deficits are related to the dyslexic symptom complex.”

He definitely comprehends better during oral reading. Silent reading comprehension has not been measured as far as I know. So, I went back over the classroom work he did last year. They had reading comprehension tests every week. About 4 to 6 paragraphs and answer 5 questions. Out of all that I have, he did not pass one of these tests. As far as other classroom work, it is incomplete, does not answer the question appropriately or just does not make sense in some cases. Yet, the teacher has marked many of them as OK or the big red C for correct. This is a great misservice to him. When he would totally “bomb” something, he would be taken out of class and put in the resource room to redo it, usually during a class he enjoyed. So basically, his daily performance does not compare to his “average” performances on the WIAT. Plus on the WIAT for reading comprehension, it says he “chose to read aloud.” So there was no measure of silent reading abilities.

Its a puzzle to me. It really concerns me that the classroom work looks the way it does. He is not able to keep up with his class. So, is he working at grade level? I would say no.

They had a portfolio that they kept all year. They were supposed to put in everything they were proud of. I finally looked through it last night (bad mom, I know). The only things that were in there were his study guides for the novels. The study guides consisted of xeroxes that the teacher made that they put together as packets and drew a picture on the cover. 7 study packets were all he was proud of all year? The worksheets that were part of the packets (like study questions) again, were incomplete, inaccurate and a mess! I just wanted to cry when I looked over everything again.

I like your idea about sitting in on the testing. I had no idea this was a possiblity. I have a feeling that at the neuropsych evals, a lot of helping went on. In the comment areas for the scores, there was a lot of indication of “tears,” “crying,” “visibly upset.” They even stopped the WIAT at one point and took him into the “sensory lab” to calm down before continuing. So your ideas about what could possibly be going on to indicate the scores vs. daily performance make sense to me.

Also, please don’t ever worry about me taking things the wrong way. I appreciate honest advice and telling it like it is. I don’t like sugar coating. So, no offense ever taken. I also want to know if I am making more out of issues than is necessary. It certainly saves me a lot of embarassment with the school.

But I really know something is going wrong. Like I said, daily performance is really scary. He won’t make it if we don’t get to the bottom of things soon.

I saw your other post with tested levels above and answered there too.

Definitely, there is a lot of fakery going on, much of it on the part of the teacher. The teacher is NOT entirely to blame however; he/she is told “pass these special ed IEP kids anyhow, we can’t fail them” so that’s what is being done. This is most people’s interpretation of “modifying” or “adapting” a program — change an F to a C and it’s adapted all right. (See my comment about honesty to K earlier — she didn’t appreciate it, alas.)

If the tester doesn’t want you to sit in, and you’re paying, find someone else to test. Sitting in means *only* observing the test administration and your child’s reaction (the notes about crying and distress and having to stop the test give you a perfect excuse to want to observe.) You can’t see the test questions, and you can’t talk to the tester or the child and interfere with the administration.

You definitely need a serious tutoring program to work on those basic skills. All that work on memorizing “sight words” was not only painful but in some ways counterproductive because it forced him to use memory and now it’s a huge frustration to drop it after so much pain learning it. I would say to get a serious professional tutor — cheaper than all those neuropsych visits and a lot more productive in the long run. Have you tried iser.com for local listings of special ed people? Get someone who believes *firmly* in a phonics approach and doesn’t ever fall back on sight memory; as your son has proved many times over, that’s the problem and not the solution.

It’s worth trying to visit your son’s new teacher this year, now, before the habits get set. Explain that you would rather see a little work done right than a lot messed up, and that you’re not afraid to see an F and won’t sue him (Believe me, some parents will.) Tell him you want your son to be given work that he can reasonably be expected to do and succeed in, and then you will accept any F’s and work with your son on re-doing the work up to passable level. The teacher has all the other demands and stresses on him and will probably not be able to adapt an entire curriculum, but together you may be able to find workable alternatives — work out of the Grade 3 math book rather than the 6, doing two pages a day, for example; answer two chosen fact-based questions rather than all five on the novel, but do those two in full sentences with capitals and periods; read an easy-reading history book for his report; and so on. No, this alone will not catch him up to grade level — he needs effective tutoring for that — but it will at least make school an educational experience and not a weird guessing and pretending game for all concerned.

Actually the neuropsych did the Gray’s. I did not get any explaination other than the diagnosis of “Marked dyslexia: dyseidetic, dysphonetic and mnestic subtypes are evidenced. Word order confusion, dyscalculia, spelling dyspraxia, written language difficulties, reading difficulties and central auditory processing deficits are related to the dyslexic symptom complex.” I’m assuming the scores on the Gray’s had a lot to do with the dx.

Our school’s remedial reading would probably be Title 1? I don’t know of any other program that we offer. But I think that he would have to give up eligibility in SpEd to receive Title 1 and they use Reading Recovery from what I can gather. I think it might be worth investigating though.

So, if I go into the meeting and they tell me he doesn’t meet the qualifications for SpEd anymore that might be a blessing in disguise.

And, we added a new gifted/talented math program for our students who were not getting their needs met with our present curriculum. Perfect opportunity to move in with my ideas for the remedial reading program of my choice, right?

Hey, whats fair is fair. We owe APPROPRIATE instruction to ALL students.

From everything I read from other parents here, you don’t want your child in Reading Recovery. More guessing, and it doesn’t live up to its hype; often actively counterproductive.

That’s the feeling I get too. Haven’t heard much positive stuff about it. In fact, before my son was identified, he was in Title 1 with Reading Recovery. Worked like a charm, huh?

So, boy, I’ve got a lot of great choices here don’t I? More of the same ineffective SpEd or Reading Recovery.

One positive. We have a parents’ committe for curriculum (that’s how the gifted math program came to be). I will get myself a seat come hell or high water this year and you can bet my project will be a more effective reading remediation program.

nt