Technical question for those familiar with IM

My son just finished IM a couple of weeks ago. He was lucky enough to only go through the formal training and maxed out right at 20. I asked the trainer about this very question and she responded that the low 20’s is the goal because the brain apparently at that point has changed it circuitry and will be long lasting. If a child does not get to that point, retraining should be done about six months later. Ask your IM trainer about this.

My son says that he concentrates better, he started diving again and was able to correct his skills more quickly, he absolutely loves school which has never happened before. I see that he is better at following multi step directions, he doesn’t need as much prompting in going through routines and he is happier.

Hope that helps.
Jean

Like I said before I have two boys,both went through IM. My oldest pretested in the 30’s and had to do three weeks extra to get into the high teens. My youngest pretested in the 100’s and within the last week or so he plummeted into the teens and stayed there,not needing the extra sessions,stopping at 20.
Go figure:-)
Both have shown huge inprovements in sustained attention,no homework issues at all. And have much more interest in sports needing balance,like skateboarding,skating. Musicial intstruments.

The IM folks want kids in the teens but the trainer we worked with told me that isn’t always feasible. In other words, it can take so many extra sessions that there becomes an issue of cost/ benefit. She told me that she has talked to other trainers and they say the same thing. My son, as you know, did get into the teens, but that was not typical in her experience.

I know another mom whose daughter got to 30 the first time through. She saw def. benefits at 30. Later she did additional sessions and got her scores into low twenties and saw more benefits.

My son is now coming home and doing his homework on his own. I don’t know if it is IM, the Neuronet we picked back up after finishing IM, or maturity. I am abs shocked, anyway.

Beth

Thanks for the information. Our small survey indicates that getting as close to 20 as possible would be important. We go into the last 7 sessions of the program starting today. He’s already done 18 sessions. If he’s not close to scoring 30 after 26 sessions, or if we don’t see some results it will be hard to go back in 6 months and spend more time and money.

Karen,

I’lll be thinking of you!! Remember these things are usually not linear. So it may click yet!!

Where is he at now?

Beth

I stole your idea and told ds that if he beat his last record for bursts I’d buy him a pack of pokemon cards. The therapist thought this was a great idea.

Yesterday his overall score was 69 (down from 185 originally - he’s having alot of trouble with the feet. His hands are down to 30ish) and he only had 8 bursts.

Today he had 20 bursts, and as I type, he is sorting his pokemon cards. I don’t know what the average score was today, I think the feet are still quite high, but if he gets his hands lower and lower I feel like we’ll still get some benefits which is really what we want.

Karen,

I got my son over a big hump in Fast Forward by betting him breakfast in a diner if he could get a certain score. At this point (six sessions to go with IM), I would bet your son every time for something. He will feel like a winner and that will encourage him to try harder. Don’t underestimate the power of determination. He has been doing this for awhile, and some abstract benefit that, at the moment, is more important to him than you, is not going to do it.

Our therapist told me that feet are harder than hands and there is usually a 10 point spread between the two.

Beth

We must have more like a 40 point spread (maybe more!) if his hands are reaching the 30’s and his overall is in the 60’s. Yikes.

But motor planning is one his major issues - its where we began our therapeutic journey when he was 4 and doing OT. So this really hits him where he lives so to speak.

I’m up for bribes. A few more packs of pokemon cards sure beats having to buy him another set of IM sessions! And he typically responds well to incentives. THANKS

Karen,

I am having the same experience with my son. He seemed to be stuck at his hands in the 50-70 range with only one or two bursts. He seemed stressed to me. He kept wiggling his fingers and when I rubbed his shoulders he was very tense.

Well anyway the other day the therapist went over the sounds with him again. It seems he did not really recognize the perfect sound. (Just a small glitch, for sure) The therapist adjusted the sounds for a second time making the perfect sound louder and had him watch her do it and count her perfects.

This intervention worked like a charm. He got 12 bursts with his hands and his score was 40. I have to say this therapist is very good. She tried so many things to help him when he is stuck. She always does the bribary thing. He usually wins a yu gi oh card. This last time he won an action figure.
We have 7 sessions left too.
I have seen further changes in his mood and he just seems nicer to be around more compliant with rules. It is really amazing to me to see such a change.

The therapist said that we would see a big change in him because when he started he had absolutely no rythm. She said that a movement from 250 to 40 is a big change.

Linda

Yes, my son is at around 90 -100 with his feet. I think it is balance. She said the feet are a different area of the brain. I’ll have to ask more about what she meant.

The comment about balance is interesting. My son was much better with feet than hands when we started, which is not typical. We had done Neuronet which is very centered on the vestibular or balance system. We had seen big changes in balance. The therapist told me that NN would influence the feet more than the hands but I didn’t know why.

Beth

Wow Beth, you read my mind. That is exactly what I thought the therapist was getting at when she said the feet were a different part of the brain.

My son was doing the heels when she mentioned this. It was difficult for him because he couldn’t see where to place his feet. He kept hitting the mat in different areas and trying to look over his shoulder. The therapist said he should look ahead, that it was a “feel thing.” She mentioned something about knowing where your body is in space.

I know that my son does have vestibular issues. His OT from school wrote in one report that he seeks out proprioceptive feedback. I guess he likes to swing on the tire swing, spin etc. It is these activities that to me look somewhat like ADHD. I really wonder about the relationship between the two disorders.

Two disorders—sensory integration and ADHD?

I think they are very different disorders that produce some of the same symptoms. I had a friend of a friend visit who described her daughter to me in the course of the time we spent together. It sure sounded like sensory integration problems to me. I sent her home with my OUt of Sync Child book. My friend called later and told me that her friend had taken her daughter to pediatrician who said severe ADHD. I said no way. My friend said wait—guess she then took her for complete evaluation and diagonosis—sensory integration disorder. So even the doctors were fooled.

ADHD, at least right now, is mainly a diagnosis of elimination. We can’t find anything else to explain these inattentive behaviors. Difficult to know with our complex kids. I am still not sure neurologist was right on my kid and ADHD, especially as I continue to observe great changes this school year.

Beth

I just see very often where the elimination never takes place. Many MDs don’t even believe that sensory integration exists. When you look at the diagnostic criteria does it say that the MD needs to eliminate other disorders such as CAPD and SI. I have never seen that mentioned.I am on the fence on this issue. I have to make sure that the sensory integration issues are dealt with before I will let anyone call him ADHD. My son is on the border. I also don’t want to be in denial if this is something he needs.

I think for some kids the ADHD is far more clear cut.

So are you seeing enough changes related to school to have you think that it is not ADD? Do you think that IM caused this change?

My son’s therapist said that she has had at least one child for whom they were considering meds not need meds after IM. She knows of others who had their med dosages decreased. She has ADD herself as does her son.

We have seen some really nice changes but he still isn’t where an average child his age would be. I honestly don’t know if he is ADD. The therapist who we have worked with for 18 months with NN doesn’t think so. She thinks a lot of his problems are related to lack of visualization. I postponed his pediatrician appt. to the end of October to see what happens by then.

I honestly thought the neurologist made the diagnosis based on the fact he has severe learning disabilities and attention issues. He said kids like him almost always have ADD. This may be true but, like you, I am a little leary of such a global statement. Still, I read about some kids, like Leah’s, who sound a lot like mine who have had a lot of help from medication. I,like you, don’t want to do something that will help my son. But I also want to make sure it is the right thing to do.

We also have adjusted his diet to include more protein and less carbos. He is taking a daily vitamin—we had given that up several years ago after his younger brother took an overdose of them (and they were on the top shelf in the kitchen and he was 2). These are things that Dr. Amen suggests in his book on ADHD.

I am sure that what we are seeing at least partly IM. We also have continued doing NN and have in the past month made some real big leaps in some important exercises. The bottom line is he is neurologically better organized.

Beth

Laura, one of the other posters on this board with a puzzle kid sent me this link:

http://www.grossmont.k12.ca.us/GUHSD/programs/speced/Resourece%20&%20link/Resouces/Specific/Sencetab.html

and its about sensory motor issues. And while I’m reading it and thinking how much it sounds like my son, I realize that some of the solutions are exactly the opposite of what you’d do for an NLD kid. In other words, same symptoms, different disorder, different advise.

I think its the same for ADD,and many of these disorders. If you look at lists of the signs of dyslexia, most of the characteristics are the same for NLD, and/or ADD.

We had our son evaluated looking for dyslexia and maybe ADD-inattentive. The tests came back looking like NLD. I don’t think he has any of these disorders - or maybe he has a touch of them all. Makes me think they don’t really exist as separate entities.

So you pick the therapies that seem to make the most sense, try medication maybe, and keep persuing the things that seem to work.

OK. This is my son too. Even uses the language that his NN therapist has used—perceptual motor. Some of this is much better after IM and NN but still is my son.

Curious how you see the recommendations as being different than NLD?

Beth

There were just a few recommendations that talked about using visual aids, diagrams and maps as opposed to all the NLD stuff I’ve read that talks about using the NLD kid’s usual auditory strengths and minimizing the use of visual aids.

I guess my real point is that all of these disorders produce similar symptoms and needs in the kids. What LD kid doesn’ t need extended time for tests?

So I’m theorizing that some kids issues are limited to sensory motor, while NLD kids have these deficits and others such as social skills etc?? Do you think it all comes from some glitch in the same part of the brain, and in some people it looks like NLD, others ADD, others SID?

http://www.grossmont.k12.ca.us/GUHSD/programs/speced/Resourece%20&%20link/Resouces/Table.html

I have often thought about the social skills thing with NLD. I have heard it described as not being in tune with what is being said to you and not making eye contact. Isn’t this something that would also happen with someone with ADD. They can’t pay attention long enough to engage in the conversation and are looking at the sky rather than making eye contact. I know it is a complete picture thing but it just seems that only a small group meet the whole picture. For the rest it is a mish mash of motor issues, visual issues, attention issues some more severe, some very mild.

I agree with your last post. Just do what you can to help each issue and keep on keepin on, or something like that.

I think about the eye contact thing alot, because my son’s eye contact is highly variable , and often inappropriate. (he doesn’t make contact). And I’ve gotten many theories of why: Aspergers, dyslexia, NLD, ADDinattentive and anxiety. Could a person have more than one of these - of course, and anxiety could be a result of any of the above.

But the one that made the most sense to me was from his speech therapist (who’s really really smart). She said she thinks its a sensory issue - making eye contact while having a conversation and all this auditory and visual input is coming at him is just too much. And now its a learned behavior. (This is the same person who thought IM would help him. And you know, I think his eye contact is better lately.)

Karen,

That makes the most sense. Makes you wonder if paying attention (auditory or visual attention which is basicly what eye contact is, right) is just too difficult when a person has proccessing problems. So if you improve processing by stimulating that area of the brain either through therapy or meds it makes all types of attention easier. It makes the acquisition of skills and learning easier too.

Just a theory. A little MM, I guess. Chuckle.