Atten: Helen--IM in a group setting

That makes sense. I’m sure my non-LD child could do it in a group setting. But defnitely not my son. Who finished last Friday BTW, and we are still waiting to see some benefit. Anything. I haven’t lost my faith in it, just waiting and watching.

Good to know. This person was planning group sessions for low end kids who would need more then 15 sessions. I bet he would end up branching to the high end kids. I was looking through the IM information I have just last night. Last week when I was talking to my son’s biology teacher she was telling me that in about a month they would be studying the cell and would have to draw cells from what they see ithrough the microscope. She is concerned that he may not be able to keep up and that he is welcome to come in during his study skills to finish up. His poor fine motor skills are impacting his work/grade. He is not the kind of kid who is willing to put in more time and effort then the rest of his classmates. Since he is not involved in any afterschools sports I should just get on with it now instead of waiting for next summer.

Helen

Karen,

We didn’t see any results immed., except that he did seem to have more endurance in writing. It was a few weeks before I noticed him singing, for example. Now he is in soccer—and I see big improvements in his ability from last year. That is the kind of change a kid could love!!

Beth

As I said earlier, I don’t think IM in a group is doable for low end kids. I think what they are doing here is interesting and seemingly a model that could be emulated.

Let us know what you do with your son. My son still doesn’t draw well. He traces very well and does it for fun. His Neuronet therapist says his drawing issues are a problem with visualization. So, like handwriting, depends what the underlying cause is.

Beth

Helen,

I would highly recommend IM. We still have 4 more sessions to go and I have already seen improvements.

I think it was a very good program for my son who had visual motor deficits and attention issues. IM is best for these areas and those were exactly his problem, so it was a great fit.

He came downstairs again today and said, “Now mom, I am completely dressed brushed my teeth and washed my face. I have my socks in my hand and am putting them on.” I just chuckle because he never used to do this and it has become the norm. He even checked that I packed his lunch.
The problem is that once your kid attention improves they start to notice just how spacey you are. Mom needs IM too.

Linda

This spacey mom has thought the same thing!!! Wonder if they’d let me do it over at my kid’s school.

Beth

It is the recent reports of improvement after and during IM on the board that are pushing me to do it. I will go with the provider who has been doing it for a while and does the individual sessions. It is the speed and ease of writing that I would like to see improvement with. I know that you pay your money and you take your chance.

Karen was your son low on coding on the WISC?

Helen

Now that school has finally started, I sat with my son while he wrote a page of text for his homework. It looked pretty good in terms of handwriting, and he finished the page rather quickly. (everything is still spelled phonetically, but hey I’m not looking for miracles) But I am glad to hear you didn’t see much immediately, I thought most people had. Thanks.

His slow processing speed and slow graphomotor output pulled down all his test scores. But in the months following his evaluation he suddenly unblocked and started writing at a more reasonable pace (still labored, but not as bad as it was) I also think anxiety can contribute to a low coding score - and for sure he was anxious. Plus the WISC was the first test he took, of course, and he thought he had to answer everything perfectly. I ‘d bet a million bucks he’d do much better now ….

I would say that “1” is as low as you could go. My son scored 6 in 8th and 5th grade. After doing IM I would love to have that subtest given to him again to see if there is a difference. Since we have two 6 three years apart any change would more then likely be from IM then anything else.

Helen

Beth,

On the IM site they have a video clip showing it in a group setting at a Catholic High School.

Helen

Helen,

That is the high school here that I was talking about! There is a lot going on with IM here because the company is headquartered here.

Beth

What is the significance of the coding score? What are they testing for?

This was one of the few areas my son did well on in the performance area of the wisc. Funny Karen, I thought your son and mine were so similar but they scored very differently on the wisc.

I talked to my husband about IM last night and he said it sounds like snake oil to me. He asked me where are the studies and where have they been published. He thinks we should find someone to work with his handwriting while I feel we’ve done OT and when he does write neatly it is too slow to be useful in the classroom. Any ideas of how to change his mind?

Helen

Coding
A test to assess processing speed. A timed copying task where the pupil has to write coded marks under numbers in as little time as possible. A series of shapes or numbers each paired with a different symbol. The child draws the symbol under its corresponding shape or number according to a key.

Measures: Ability to discriminate, recall and learn associations between abstract symbols as well as short term visual memory, fine motor skills, eye-hand coordination, good fixation ability for keeping one’s place while working.

Possible Difficulties in the Classroom (low scores)
Fast processing speed, fluency and automaticity
Copying from the board
Speed of writing
Recall of letter sequences for spelling
Recall of facts

Good luck. I showed mine the IM web site and the stanley greenspan endorsement. The aspect hubby liked was that it was somethign we could complete before school started b/c our son is so busy afterschool with tutoring etc. Basically we did it because I make all the decisions ultimately . (LOL) however, we’ve seen no impact thus far, and it was very expensive. I believe in it so I’m hopeful, but husband is more skeptical.

DS did sit down yesterday and write a full page of text in about 15 minutes without any problems (other than his spelling) maybe a sign of something good?

Funny isn’t it. They manifest so many of the same qualities. I do think that his coding score was SO low because at that moment in time he was completely frozen with anxiety. But all of his performance scores were lower than his verbal scores (except block design…)

Helen,

Thanks so much, you are a whiz! I would present the double blind studies that are available under research from the website. I have been burned by snake oils before. One of the reasons that I pursued IM was because there was so much excellent research behind it. ( I used to be involved in research, I know a good from a bad study when I see one) That’s why I am always on here nagging everyone to follow the research. The other thing I did for my son was phongraphix, this too had excellent studies behind it.
IM has also been written up in some occupational journals. I always present it to people as OT, otherwise you just get strange looks.

My husband just goes with what I say. I sent him to the same training camp for that as Karen. ; 0 )

Karen,

Block design was my boy’s biggest problem. He scored a 4, was in the lowest 2%. Go figure!

Writing was one of the first changes we saw. Is this typical for your son? If not, I’d suspect IM was the cause.

Beth

I would have dear hubby look at the IM site. Or if he isn’t much for web sties, just print out the articles that have evaluated IM. Stanley Greenspan is on their board of directors, or something, and he certainly is a credible researcher. I actually think IM is one of the few therapies that has scientifically verifiable studies.

I was telling my parents about the Catholic School study today. They wanted to know if they could do IM!!! My daughter, who wants to attend that school, told me she’d do it if it would make high school easier.

Beth

One other thought; Is hubby into sports? My husband was more impressed with Dan Marino’s endorsement than the actual research. Dan Marino did IM as did many golfers, the Miami dolphins and the Miami heat. You could also have your son do an initial evaluation and show you husband exactly where your son’s timing is and show him where it should be. Have your husband go to the evaluation. They tested me, my husband as well as my son. We just did the short form. I tested terribly 70ms my husband tested at 24ms. I think that also convinced him. He is just is so much better attention wise than I am.

Tell you husband that the Miami Dolphins did IM and they are 2 and 0. I told my husband we should bet on them to win the super bowl. We know they have their timing perfected! It is almost like inside knowledge.

I heard that Dan Marino scored 20 without training!!! But I think that is a good idea. There are several high school football teams who have put their players through it in Florida.

I can tell the difference in my son’s soccer!!

Beth

We have just seen major changes this fall. It is hard to know how much to attribute to IM since we continued with Neuronet after finishing IM. But I know that IM made NN easier—so it is all tied together. Basically, he is better organized neurologically. But really I didn’t see anything immediately except the handwriting exercise. Then the singing started. I noticed him being much more together organizationally this fall. I saw him learning much more easily. And he came home with three A+s last Friday!! And his soccer is much improved!

Interestingly enough though his reading has not improved.
But the attention scales I had the teacher’s fill out at the end of the year (when he was almost finished with IM) were downright terrible and convinced a neurologist that he was ADD. So we certainly saw no immediate effect. Now, they are much improved so I debating the medication issue (I am having his two teachers fill them out weekly).

How did his scores end up?

Beth

Its atypical, but its also the first assignment of the school year. So 3 months has passed since the last time I saw him write. Stay tuned though….

//

Well, I didn’t get an overall score. On his final day he did something weird on one of the foot exercises so I’m sure it would have skewed the results. His hands were consistently in the 20’s , and his feet all over the place, 50’s-80.

A big improvement nonetheless. We should go back in a few months and do more. (ugh!)

I don’t expect it to improve his reading, but maybe remove some of the obstacles that get in the way (like not paying attention??)

Karen,

It is a big improvement!! Hopefully, the handwriting improvements will continue and you will notice other things. I understand the feet are more related to the vestibular system. In my son, he actually pretested much lower on feet than hands, because of doing Neuronet which is vestibularly based. In the end though, his hands were lower, because they are easier to learn.

I spoke to my son’s teacher last night and she told me she put him on the computer with cowriter just once. She said he produced a lot less than she knew he would have with paper and pencil. I told her that was not true last year and that last year even without being able to type, he did better with cowriter. I told her to leave him with paper and pencil if she thought he did better that way. That is such a huge change for him. If you only get this, it will be worth it!!! Now I have to make sure he doesn’t lose his typing skills!!

Beth

Beth and Karen,

I was fairly devasted last night at back to school night to see my son’s handwriting and spelling. My son can spell words when I ask him to spell them but when he writes a sentence he just can’t seem to do it. I am mentally blaming it on the creative spelling he learned in first grade, once again whole language rears it’s ugly head. He has been spelling the word spelling speeling since first grade and he doesn’t get corrected (because we don’t want to hinder the writing process, ARRGH) His handwriting was just awful. It was all scrunched on the top of the page. Maybe I am expecting too much to soon.

I really hope to see improvements like Beth has, I thought I would because I am seeing advances in other areas. I know, I know I probably just need to give it time. He has been writing that way for a long time, Rome wasn’t built in a day. It is encouraging that you saw this delayed reaction.

One thing that has really changed is that he can now read graphs. This was his most difficult area. He would just look at a graph and have no idea what to do with it. He can now read them easily.
My son’s school OT is excited about IM. I am bringing her to one of his sessions.

Karen, one thing about the feet and the vestibular system. I talked to my son’s therapist about this. It seems that my son has a hypoactive vestibular system which is why he seeks out activities that stimulate this area of the brain. (Deep pressure, jumping, swinging.)She said we should try to do a few exercises that stimulate the vestibular system before he does his feet. We will be jumping off chairs in her office. She says that she does this with her own son before sending him to school. I am trying it with Chris. He was jumping of the bottom three stairs trying to grasp a bar I held out in front of me before leaving for school. It is interesting to me how much he enjoys this activity. He was in a rotten mood before we did this and it he was giggling while we did it.

Linda„

We did IM in May and June. It is now September. I really don’t know what we would have seen with handwriting earlier because other than our post test, which showed more endurance, we didn’t do any over the summer (bad momma).

IM also works on motor planning as related to handwriting. There are a number of other causes of problems with handwriting. So even if one is fixed, handwriting can continue to be an issue. My son, for example, still skips letters and doesn’t use punctuation. His actual handwriting is not an issue and wasn’t even before IM. We had done therapy with Neuronet that seemed to really impact the spacing and legibility of his handwriting. His big issue was endurance. He’d write a couple sentences and then fall apart. This is where we have seen big improvements. It seems that it is enough difference that he is able to rely on handwriting like other kids, rather than moving him to keyboarding.

I think your son’s spelling issues are different. I suspect that the problem is that the writing takes so much energy that he forgets how to spell. If he goes back, can he spell them correctly? If so, then he is retaining his spelling but just doesn’t use it when he is writing. Our neuronet therpists tells me that Nathan’s issues with not using punctuation ect. are integration issues. He too knows it in isolation. My daughter, who is not LD, always has had issues retaining spelling. I think it is because her auditory skills are weak. She is very strong visualually and always aces her spelling tests. She has improved as she has gotten older (she is almost 12 now) and using spell check this past year has helped too.

My son cannot spell really at all. We are going to use scholastic’s series written by Louise Moats, a leading reading specialist, with him at school. Janis (on this board) recommended it and I persuaded his teacher to use it instead of the standard cir.

Beth

If I stop and instruct him to sound it out he will usually spell it correctly. He hasn’t made the connection that when writing he should stop and sound each word that he doesn’t know.

They taught him to guess and keep going. It was called creative spelling or creative speeling as the case may be.

I think I have to just get him to sound out more automatically and stop guessing. This will surely slow him down but it has to be done. Even words that he has pretty automatic when spelling on a list he will sometimes spell wrong when writing a story.
You are right it probably is alot to deal with. His visual/motor issues are better so I thought that would take away at least some of the difficulty. His fine motor skills are good so that isn’t it.
I wonder if it is a case where he has new visual/motor skills but hasn’t started to use them for writing. Once you do something using your old inefficient coping mechanisms it is hard to learn to do something a new way.

So interesting! My son is an avid climber and jumper . He also skips alot when he’s thinking. It looks pretty weird. The climbing is another thing atypical if he’s really NLD.

Linda, don’t be devastated - you’re doing all the right things. We have to celebrate our kids accomplishments and not compare them to their peers. You should see my son’s spelling. Its hysterical (once you get over the shock) totally phonetic, but horrible. For example:

Did thae hav cloes? (translation: did they have clothes)

But he’s producing written work, and although he makes the letters using incorrect strokes, they look ok.

I discovered late in 2nd grade that if my ds spelled orally he was right most of the time (not all but at a more normal level) vs. written spelling which is almost never right. Can’t figure out how to make this information work for him tho.

Writing is extremely complicated - it could be breaking down anywhere