Attn: jao &leah

The first rule of education do no harm.

I am a college seniors graduating in January .I am dyslexic and dysgraphia like your daughter. I personally do not use curses. I print everything. I do know how to type but I use a dictator for major typing. I have a scribed for my test and also a reader. Here’s my thing not letting your daughter use a scribed is doing her harm. She will have success with a scribe.

Regards to typing teacher how at home.

Honestly I hope this does not come across rude but I just don’t want to see your daughter suffer. When reasonable accommodations are being offered. Please don’t let your daughter suffer.

Sincerely,
See

PS~There was a interesting conversation a couple months back on the adult LD board it was called Do You Print or Use Handwriting? It is worth finding you might find it interesting.

In a way I see your point ….but is letting her fail ( and I would nver show her the score as these tests are mailed home like in Aug of the following summer ) So she would be ” eligible for the help that she really needs any way harming her??
How do you access old conversations on these boards ? See wrote:
>
> The first rule of education do no harm.
>
> I am a college seniors graduating in January .I am dyslexic
> and dysgraphia like your daughter. I personally do not use
> curses. I print everything. I do know how to type but I use
> a dictator for major typing. I have a scribed for my test
> and also a reader. Here’s my thing not letting your daughter
> use a scribed is doing her harm. She will have success with
> a scribe.
>
> Regards to typing teacher how at home.
>
> Honestly I hope this does not come across rude but I just
> don’t want to see your daughter suffer. When reasonable
> accommodations are being offered. Please don’t let your
> daughter suffer.
>
> Sincerely,
> See
>
> PS~There was a interesting conversation a couple months back
> on the adult LD board it was called Do You Print or Use
> Handwriting? It is worth finding you might find it interesting.

Hi Cathy:

1)
Not showing her scores is fine.. But I was referring to her physical suffering too. It is extremely difficult for your daughter to write it emotionally and physically draining. Learning to work with scribed is still that your daughter needs to develop. I do think your daughter needs to learn how to type. But passing tests are important I can tell you I would have known if I was not passing or passing a test in the fourth grade. Use your daughter allowed to use the computer for other assignment? I know part of the reason I use scribed is I can do the test faster. And it causes less frustration and worry. She can focus on getting out the material she know .If your daughter knows the material let show that. She needs success even though is not your favorite of the accommodations. Let her try it. I guess what I’m trying to say. It might not be the best but it is an appropriate accommodation.

I am a poor typist myself and it’s hard for me to do that. They may be trying to prepare your daughter for the use of a dictation software. In the future. And that may be why they want her to use scribed now. So she can get used to dictating. Being able to dictate to someone is still that needs to be developed.

A downside to using a computer for test is the fact that you can lose the material. And with scribed there is a chance of that.

By the way I think I was in fourth grade when I started using a scribed. I use scribed most of the time sometimes I tape-record my answers and sometimes I do it on a computer. I use the computer mainly for English classes.

2)
What is Alpha smart ? I know that the something kind computer program. But I am not familiar with its.

3)
I have a question for you. When you’re writing do you use cursor or printing? And ask her father the same question???
Point being as adults we make our own decision on which one use in our daily life. Does your daughter know how to sign her name? Because that’s all you really need cursor for.

4)
What other accommodations is your daughter receiving?

5)
Is it worth fighting the school for a computer? I don’t think is one of those battles I would fight personally.

I just do not want your daughter to suffer for no reason.

Sincerely,
See

I forgot to tell you how to get that old message good adult LD board and at the bottom of the page there’s a button that says older messages and just hit it until you find it. I hope that makes sense. I tried to get your www but it is that you directly to the help adult LD board and I can they get it to go to the message exactly

I would not worry about cursive writing other than to try to get a child familiar enough with it to read it. what is the point of learning it anymore? no one on the high school or college or work level wants to see papers in cursive—they want them word-processed and short stuff printed.
work on the print—work on the typing—forget cursive. I think we won’t see it within another generation. Just as my grandfather spent many hours learning beautiful handwriting in 1900, my grandchildren will be rapid with a keyboard or pc tablet.

Hi Cathy.

I was able to cut and paste the old postings I was referring to over so here they .

Also feel free to e-mail me at
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Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: See
Date: 08-27-02 22:54

A quick question to all of you out there with LD.

Do you print or use handwriting?

The reason I asked this is because there’s a huge discussion on the discussion board for Parent of LD Children.

I personally don’t use handwriting and don’t like it.

Reply To This Message
Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Anita
Date: 08-28-02 00:31

Hi See,
It’s funny because I use handwriting. I can’t read my printing and I hate printing….but have beautiful handwriting. At least that is what is told me all the time…..go figure!!!

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Ball
Date: 08-28-02 01:09

I am unable to write in cursive. I must print.

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: socks
Date: 08-28-02 21:09

I can write in cursive,but it is pretty illegible. I can print much better,and will sometimes do both. I will start out printing and end up using cursive or visa versa. Seems like certain words,not sure.

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: brad
Date: 08-29-02 01:32

I can write if I don’t want anyone to be able to read it. I print as it’s difficult for me to control my fine motor movements writing without concentration.

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: ball
Date: 08-29-02 04:43

Dysgraphia?? Or does that involve the sphincter of a VR worker with no arms or legs and only 2 other orrfices capable of holding a pen? Both of said orrfices are interchangable and both capable of simalar speech?

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: ball
Date: 08-30-02 02:41

I am writing this reply with the aid of voice recognition software. It interpreted the first sentence correctly. However, it does make mistakes. I think the newer versions work a little better. Even with its mistakes it seems to type faster than I do. That doesn’t mean a lot though because I type like a turtle. a drain pipe…. I’m meant to say he can ranges……. I’m meant to say that he trained typist…… I’m meant the say….. I’m meant to say that a trained typist could type a lot faster than this software dictates. However, a microphone that I am using may not be of high enough Fidelity. Also, it will not say swear words no matter how hard I tried to program it. it will say bastard so when I dictate a letter to VR I will at least be able to convey some of my thoughts. It seems to do very well medical terminology words like brain, cerebral cortex, visual cortex, thalamus, pre-frontal lobe, and neo cortex Seem to come out with relative ease. I believe that voice recognition software may be worth a try. this particular version can be a little bit frustrated to use. if it did work flawlessly it would sure beat writing. It does seem to work better with its own word processor. But I believe the newer versions may be a lot better. Perhaps the kind people at vocational rehabilitation would provide it for those of us will need it. Also, if you believe that I have swamp land for sale.

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Megan
Date: 09-01-02 04:22

I do both…depends on my mood. Also depends on where I am or what I am doing. And on another note, I love to write just in general.

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Robert M. Trygar
Date: 09-03-02 17:31

To whom it may concern: I only use cursive writing to sign my name on checks, legal documents, etc. Other than that, I print; Otherwise, no one can read what I’m writing!! Even with a Developmental Disablity, I learned to type—about 30-35 wpm, and it got me out of a lot of trouble in my undergraduate years. Even if your typing is worse than mine, learning this skill would be a ‘GOOD THING’ for some where ‘…down the road.’ (Thank you John Fogerty—wherever you are)!! Have you had yourself checked for Dysgraphia? I can’t, but I know I have it; It seems that the CA Dept. of Rehablilitaion isn’t interested in anyone with a ‘CONGENITAL INJURY’ anymore. The ‘NEW SENSATION’ is Injured on the Job/IOD status injuries—All others need not apply!!

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Christine
Date: 09-03-02 23:45

I do both depending on the situation. I HATE it when they ask you to “print” on an application form. It’s a little harder for me to control. I mostly write cursive. However, when taking notes in class, I have a problem with keeping up. I noticed in my class tonight that my writing becomes uncontrollable when I’m trying to take notes, listen and keep up all at once! My notes then become nearly impossible to make sense out of! My recent LD re-test confirmed this. I’m going to try re-typing my notes on the computer. If I decide to tape my classes, I can then fill in what I missed.

AA, where can you get those pens you mentioned? I do find it hard to control my writing. I’d be curious if the special pens will help me.

Take care!!

Christine

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Rjm
Date: 09-05-02 13:13

both my handwriting and printing are equally bad. I tend to use a combination of both. Some letters I seem to naturally use cursive (correct word?) and other letters i natually tend to print.

The part of this that interests me is that some regular combinations of letters I have devleoped almost a merged symbol for and use that. Like “th” always comes out as more of a backwards wide captial N.

I also use a lot of short forms and abbreviations when hand writing .

Mostly I type everything!

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Michelle
Date: 09-12-02 21:07

I am adult with a learning disability. For the most part I print my notes. When ever possible, I use a word prossor because my printing is so small. Handwritng is good for signing checks or legal documents. Hope this helps : )

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: rose
Date: 09-18-02 18:14

Signing my name is all that I do in cursive and I even do that poorly. I can print but it is slow, filled with mistakes and very embarassing. Thank the universe for computers! I’m not even able to do it well but if it weren’t for word processing, I never would have made it through college.

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Rjm
Date: 09-19-02 22:39

rose,

I shall that thanfullness for word processing!

I started typing in a lot of my work in grade 7/8. It made quite the difference to both the frame of mind I was in when I handed work in and in the response that I got from teachers.

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: jane
Date: 09-22-02 13:04

As an LD individual and parent of twins with similar characteristics I find it interesting how this is an issue we face everyday. I have the tendency to print everything. I mix letters of cursive and print in my words. My control is better when I use a pencil. One daughter prints all of the time and it is extremely small and has been challenged by teachers to increase the size because they are unable to read it. The other daughter uses cursive most of the time but it is laborous for her. As you know our spelling is awful so we disguise our written text with different quarks.
I hope this will help

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Re: Do you print or use handwriting?
Author: Jan
Date: 10-19-02 18:01

I print everything, except my sign. And I print in upper case if it’s a capital I just print it bigger than the rest.

Cheers,

Jan

Hello Cathy,

You said your daughter was graduated out of OT - did you agree to this discontinuation? My daughter is still in OT even though her OT believes she needs to graduate. Her handwriting is better than 90% of her peers. I want her to continue in OT for organzational skills, sensory integration helps and plan to soon get on the bandwagon for my daughter to be taught how to better use writing software. My daughter’s handwriting (cursive) is better than most of her classmates now; however, it is a slow and laborious task for her b/c of other LDs, i.e., motor planning, etc.

She uses a computer for written assignments and we are currently trying to make the decision on whether or not to allow her a scribe for FCAT (assessments). FCATs are in February, so we need to make that decision soon.

As far as your daughter, I would request in writing that she be placed back in OT. Also, I believe that failing the writing portion of the state assessments will really not matter to them if she is an ESE student as her grades are not included with the general ed students and does nto reflect upon the school’s grade.

If I may ask, when did the “graduate” your daughter from OT? This is a decision that cannot be made without your consent if your child has an IEP. If they did it without your consent, you should write a letter stating that and the fact that they cannot discontinue services without your consent. I believe it’s called prior written notice or something to that effect. I would have to research the exact terminology. I would also attach a copy of some of your daughter’s worst handwriting to the letter so that the “higher ups” could see the problem and understand why you want these services to continue. Then I would cc: everyone and see what kind of response you get.

BTW, if you get a chance, read Richard Wanderman’s “How Computer’s Change the Writing Process for People with Learning Disabilities”. It is in the LD Online First Person Essay Archives.

Leah

I was not thrilled with the idea of her being graduated from OT but I was fighting to keep resource room at the time . Her grades are in the A&b range for most subjects but she needs help with typical dyslexic things reading fluency ( directions ) and writing (mechanics and spelling ) She needs extra time to complete things and of course organization organization and organization !

I am aspeech pathologist who works within the system and I know that even though she may still need help the standarized test show an equivalncy level and they no longer qualify . She can write although the quality leaves something to be desired . I have pushed for sensory integeration therapies but the ot’s in our district are not really alll that good at it. I think they have read up on it and maybe taken a workshop or two but certainly not at the level that the ot’s I work with on the early intervention level have .

Of course now that she broke her arm we may be able to get more ot as her handwriting has deteriorated and her strength is gone . I think she will fail all of the test because she won’t get credit for most of what she writes because they won’t be able to read it .

Hi, Cathy-

I, too, am up in the air about what we should do regarding our son’s writing. He’s not getting enough OT (only 90 min/month) to really make a difference (this was even the OT’s opinion), and we are trying to find a provider who will take our insurance for OT, as we’re already going broke with the other private tutor.

My husband and I discuss a lot about whether we are willing “to give up” on his handwriting before he even gets in the cursive arena. It’s very large and practically illegible now. (The funny thing is that he “can’t wait to write in cursive”.) The school OT is already talking about how we should bring him up to speed on keyboarding (she suggested Mavis Beacon) in anticipation of using an Alpha/Smart Writer in the future. That suggestion on her part doesn’t really give me a lot of confidence that she feels he will become tremendously improved through OT.

Needless to say, I have trouble with this approach, but also feel like we need to choose the battles for Kevin wisely. If he never wrote legibly, but could read comprehensively, that would be a good outcome, in our minds. Besides thank you notes and the like, I rarely hand-write anything, when I think about it. How many of us really do anymore?

If developmental coordination disorder were his only issue, I think we would work on the handwriting as much as he could tolerate. However, since it’s not, and we value the reading and comprehension abilities above the pragmatics of handwriting, we really have to weigh things in terms of how much it’s worth it to pressure him to improve in the handwriting arena, as well. At this point, I am committed to getting the scribe written into his IEP next year in anticipation of Ohio’s Fourth Grade Proficiency exam. If he doesn’t need it by then, fine, but my gut tells me that he probably will.

Good luck and God’s Grace to you!

I agree with you totally, Leah - Cathy, look into why they “graduated” her, assuming you didn’t agree to it. Make sure they are sticking to her IEP. They can’t just arbitrarily decide to “graduate” her without your consent.

Even if we decide to lower the priority of legible handwriting in our son’s situaiton, I, too, would keep our son in OT indefinitely, for many of the same reasons that Leah mentioned. It contributes much more to him than just handwriting skills.

JAO