Measuring progress

Measurement implies a beginning and some quantity or interval past the beginning. So, more than one score is needed. In any event, I have not seen it possible to measure achievement with a pure IQ test alone—whether given once or in three year intervals. IQ tests *allegedly* measure “ability.” At least on that given day…for those tasks…in that time limit…with that examiner…in whatever environment the student comes from…and is placed in for the test.

Tests of achievement may be standardized (i.e. norm-referenced like the WJ-R or WIAT or PIAT or KEY Math or CELF…) or they might be criterion-referenced (not normed, just tells how student did on specific set of tasks—such as got 70/90 correct on spelling test or read 20 CVC words with 100% accuracy. The Lindamood Auditory Conceptualization Test is also a criterion test.)

If one only gives speech/language tests, then one will only get speech language data. In order to measure academic achievement, one must test for academic areas.

Hope this helps.

Ok, so if I have the CELF from 2nd grade, 4th grade, 7th grade, and now the beginning of 9th grade and the scores are almost identical, does that mean no progress was made in those areas?

That is the same question for the Woodcock Johnson. I have 4 sets of tests, 2nd, 4th, 7th and 8th. However, the special education teacher said that you can’t compare old scores to new scores but an atty says in a court of law they will use the percentile ranks from old and new? For example, in 4th grade the grade equivelant for reading was 2.2, then in 8th grade it was 3.0, both on the Woodcock Johnson.

Who is right and how do I compare?

Thanks
K.

You’d do better to compare percentiles. Keep in mind, though, that if a kiddo stays at, say, the 26 percentile that means he is making progress because he’s keeping the same rank with the rest of the statistical population who of course are also making progress. I’m guessing percentiles dropped with GE only going up that much :(
Exactly why do you want to compare? Are you looking at due process, or whether or not what they’ve done/will be doing is appropriate?

I hope you smell what’s going on here. Special ed teacher does not want you to keep track of whats going on. Its called accountability. Of course you are going to get that reaction from them.

You need to be on top of the game and manage your son’s academic progress. Do not leave this up to them because they are going to tell you everything is going fine. He is progressing.

The response from Sue, I would be interested to see if the students in the same grade level have
“maintained” the same scores or if they have improved (or gone up). I’ve heard this one before. Let’s compare this to the other students, then I’ll believe the he’s made progress if his scores have stayed the same.

All that means to me is that they are accomodating enough for my son to maintain less than average work. They are not working to bring him up to the rest of the class even though he may be quite capable.

As long as the same subtests were given on the CELF in order to obtain the scores, then the growth (or lack of it) is measurable using this test. The question is, does the test measure what you want it to measure, or is it valid for your use in goals and objectives in the IEP? That’s a much more difficult question to answer without examining the Present Level of Performance (PLEP) and Goals/Objectives in the actual IEP’s during each year. The PLEPS should paint a picture of that student at that given time and be quantitative. The goals should be measureable and have benchmarks toward achievement.

I was taught to avoid Grade Equivilants (G.E.) and Age Equiv. (A.E.) because they are not as statistically accurate. Standard Scores (SS) are best and Percentiles are fine, too.

It is the Goals/Objectives that drive placement (where the services will be provided) and amount of time required for implementation (minutes per week).

I guess for starters I am trying to determine if what is being and has been done has been appropriate.

I understand the concept that if he stays at the 26th percentile that means he has kept the same rank with the rest of his peers. What is confusing me is the atty saying that is not entirely true.

At any rate, here is an example of what I am trying to determine.

Woodcock Johnshon
Broad Reading
2nd Grade- no tested, was tested for Broad Reading, which is interesting becuase I am not sure he could actually read then.
4th Grade (4/1998) - SS 71 PR 3%
7th Grade (12/2000)- SS 73 PR 8%
8th Grade (4/2002) - SS 68 PR 2%

Also on the CELF, if I compare 4th to 7th,
4th Grade receptive is 100 and expressive is 94, total is 96
7th Grade receptive is 78 and expressive is 94, toal is 85

Also, on the CELF, when you compare subtests
Receptive 1998 2000
Concepts and Directions - SS 11 SS 6
Word Classes - SS 8 SS 5
Semantic Relationships - SS 11 SS 8

Expressive
Formulated Sentences - SS 10 SS 9
Recalling Sentences - SS 9 SS 7
Sentence Assembly - SS 8 SS 11 <<<–only increase

I am pretty sure that there is no significant increase and that it is hard to look at those scores and percentile ranks and say that he has received the appropriate services?? What he has been receiving must not be working

Thanks
K.

Forgot to mention he has received speech and lang services from the school district for 11 years.

K.

This is kind of the same question I had asked on the bb under teaching math and Susan gave a good response.I was measuring my daughter’s progress thru the Woodcock Johnson test and even though it showed progress It does not give me the information I really want to know such as can she do addition,subtraction,regrouping.This is the stuff I really need to know to make sure she has learned the basics and if she hadn’t get it into the IEP to remediate it.Thanks for the insight and test suggestion Susan.

What are you asking? In regular ed., student progress is measured by curriculum based assessment, not IQ scores or individual achievement testing. Individual achievement testing must also be viewed in context; as I posted to little lulu on the parent board there is a way of looking at adjusted/regressed IQ scores and predicted achievement, look at the site I suggested. However lots of other factors influence achievement over the years, and that’s where outside evals. are very helpful.

What is the ability score (IQ)?

Ability would measure some academic or related area (such as reading, math, speech, fine/gross motor), and these scores are compared to IQ testing (Wechsler—WISC—or Stanford Binet, as examples) to determine—in most states—if a child is eligible for and in need of special education services.

K.

I have to wonder if presenting research to the school about what should be included in a reading remediation program would encourage them to take steps that were more in line with the current research.

There is an article in the eric clearing house, Early Literacy Instruction: Research applications in the classrooms.#ed459424 Eric clearing house is a series of articles sponsered by the department of education summarizing the latest research on a variety of educational issues.
Type Eric into google and both the Eric clearing house and regular eric database should come up. I have found both extremely useful.

I would think that the school would want to follow the latest research. I think maybe you could help educate them in a way that was perhaps well meaning and nonthreatening. This is the approach I will take this year with my son’s school.

If that doesn’t work you could perhaps use the information at a due process hearing if you feel the need to take it that far.

Linda

K. wrote:

Woodcock Johnshon
Broad Reading
2nd Grade- no tested, was tested for Broad Reading, which is interesting becuase I am not sure he could actually read then.
4th Grade (4/1998) - SS 71 PR 3%
7th Grade (12/2000)- SS 73 PR 8%
8th Grade (4/2002) - SS 68 PR 2%

Kay,
Someone who scores in the 3rd percentile in 4th grade probably doesn’t read more than a few sight words or makes a lucky guess on a cloze test. One answer can make several points difference.

Every test has a margin for error. The best, most reliable ones, have a very low margin—like about 5%. So, on any given day, a score could vary +/- by 5% from a statistical perspective. (This is important to keep in mind…a broad score like this needs to vary by 5% in order to be considered statistically.) This cluster for the WJR is very reliable. The subtests within, when viewed individually, are not as reliable. This is true with all single subtests: They are not as reliable as a cluster of subtests.

I would definitely not be pleased with these scores! As you know, 98 students in 8th grade out of 100 read better than your son. What is happening for him? What have they tried so far? How is he doing in school?

Many states do use CBA; however, mine is not one of them. There are many. Parents must use the tools required in the State Plan for *their* state. Look under definitions of LD and eligibility criteria for LD. The state’s department of education will have their plan approved by the fed’s OSER/OSEP (forget which one).

What you said may be true for your state, but it is not universal.

When he was in the elementary grades he received the Distar Reading program, which I understand is really not appropriate for dyslexics. Then in fifth grade he received nothing for a reading program. Starting in 6th grade he recieved Wilson and continued with it for 3 Years. Entering 9th grade we do not know what he will be using, we are waiting for the results of his independent eval for some suggestion. The Dr. who did the eval was questioning whethr Wilson was right for him.

In speech and lang he started receiving speech and lang therapy in preschool. Starting in Kindergarten he received SLtherpay 2 a week for 30 min. That continued through 4th grade. When he entered 5th grade he received no SLservices. Then in 6th Grade he received SLtherapy, once a week for 40 minutes. The SLP told us at a IEP meeting that if she were to retest him again (which she was supposed to do anyway) he wouldn’t show any progress. However, comparing his scores, he hasn’t made progress since he started receving services. Also, I realize that 40 minutes a week really isn’t going to do much.

All this combined and the lack of progress makes me very concerned.

K.

K. wrote:
>
> When he was in the elementary grades he received the Distar
> Reading program, which I understand is really not appropriate
> for dyslexics.

I hasn’t demonstrated good data, for sure, with language-based LD populations.

>Then in fifth grade he received nothing for a
> reading program.

Oh, my! Why was that?

>Starting in 6th grade he recieved Wilson and
> continued with it for 3 Years.

I’m not sure my son would have made much progress without the foundation of Phonemic Awareness (P.A) given by Lindamood-Bell. Also, the Wilson person has to have good P.A. skills or they mess up the segment/blend parts of the lesson. I had a teacher’s assistant a while back that couldn’t segment & blend. I had to stop her from working w/kids on those skills. What I’m trying to say, is that there is more than one variable possible.

>Entering 9th grade we do not
> know what he will be using, we are waiting for the results of
> his independent eval for some suggestion. The Dr. who did the
> eval was questioning whether Wilson was right for him.

If your son has made no more progress than this, using a straight Wilson approach, something is obviously not working—and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that part out. It *may* take a rocket scientist to fix it, though—or a reading rocket scientist!

> In speech and lang he started receiving speech and lang
> therapy in preschool. Starting in Kindergarten he received
> SLtherpay 2 a week for 30 min.

On what issues were they concentrating? Was therapy successful? (BTW, Robin G’s post on CELF was masterful—in my opinion. Saw it in email but now cannot find it on-line.)

>That continued through 4th
> grade. When he entered 5th grade he received no SLservices.
> Then in 6th Grade he received SLtherapy, once a week for 40
> minutes. The SLP told us at a IEP meeting that if she were to
> retest him again (which she was supposed to do anyway) he
> wouldn’t show any progress. However, comparing his scores, he
> hasn’t made progress since he started receving services.
> Also, I realize that 40 minutes a week really isn’t going to
> do much.
>
> All this combined and the lack of progress makes me very
> concerned.

I would be blown away if you werent concerned! What kind of goals & objectives have been in all the IEP’s? Do you have a copy of his complete file from the beginning showing goals, objectives, tests, diagnostic summaries (evaluation results)?

Now, what do you observe about his reading? What does he do with words he cannot recognize? How is his pace and accuracy? When listening to someone else read, how is comprehension? How is comprehension when he reads? What are his relative strengths? What does he like to do? (People like to do what they do well or easily…)

I believe K has posted about this young person before who has a FS IQ in the high 70’s and is in process of an independent eval.; certainly Massachusetts requires a severe discrepancy for an LD diagnosis, it’s all on the DOE website.

In the beginning when he was 3 and 4 my mother was concerned that his speech was not comparable or on the same level as his peers. The preschool report says “That minor difficulties in color and number concepts were observed as well as weakness in understanding more complex/complete stor (narrative structures). Expressive language is moderately delayed with difficulties in syntax and morphology. Articulation skills are characterized by several phonological processes.”

It also says when the speech and lang goals have been acheived, considerations will be given to the next less restrictive prototype. The speech and lang goal is “To improve speech and language skills” This is too be accomplished with a small group setting, progress reports, ongoing observation and a multisensory approach, 2 hours a week.

There were also specific objectives, that he will tell events of story in correct sequence 5 times, will draw conclusions, make inferences, show cause and effect, and explain relationships 80% accuracy, use appropriate grammatical structures or spontaneous speech w/80% accuracy, will discrimate between his own correct or incorrect sound production w/80% accuracy, correctly produce target sounds in isiloation,syllables or words w/80% accuracy and produce target sounds in connected spontaneous speech with 80% accuracy. Apparently back then 80% was the key to all objectives.

He then moved to kindergarten and was still on an IEP, it reads basically the same as the preschool one but has more objectives, but the same goal. Also, the speech and lang is cut from 2 hours to 1 hour per week. It stays the same until 2nd grade where it changes to “Improve reading and language arts skills”
Speech and lang is no longer mentioned. I can’t seem to find any discussion of the goals being met, he is still having the same problems now as when he was three and four. So I don’t think therapy has been successful, I think his success is from him, I think he has learned to compensate on his own.

I have all his evals exept the preschool one, if one was done. The first one I have is the one I posted from 2nd grade. He has a speech and lang and woodcock johnson.

When he reads he can not seem to decode words. He reads incredibly slow and if he doesn’t know a word he guess’s it. When he is listening to someone else he does better, his long term retrieval is a strength. so once he gets the info in, it is there for good.

< What are his relative strengths? What does he like to do?>

His strengths are his willingness to help. He is so considerate and kinds. I can’t say that he really has an academic strenght at this point becuase he really doesn’t like school and hasn’t done very well there in a long time. There was a period where he really liked science but not anymore. His “best” subject is math. He seems to understand the math concepts better than anything else.

He loves to work with his hands. Fixing and taking apart thing are what he enjoys. That is why I think the vocational school will be good for him but only if I can get the academic areas together!

Thanks
K.

His FSIQ is 77 and his VIQ 81 and PIQ 78.
Also, don’t you add VIQ and PIQ together and divide by 2? That makes the FSIQ 79.5??

Just wondering, not sure that 2 points is very important at this point!!

K.

K. Wrote:
>The speech and lang goal is “To
> improve speech and language skills” This is too be
> accomplished with a small group setting, progress reports,
> ongoing observation and a multisensory approach, 2 hours a
> week.

This is way too general, not measurable.

> There were also specific objectives, that he will tell events
> of story in correct sequence 5 times, will draw conclusions,
> make inferences, show cause and effect, and explain
> relationships 80% accuracy, use appropriate grammatical
> structures or spontaneous speech w/80% accuracy, will
> discrimate between his own correct or incorrect sound
> production w/80% accuracy, correctly produce target sounds in
> isiloation,syllables or words w/80% accuracy and produce
> target sounds in connected spontaneous speech with 80%
> accuracy. Apparently back then 80% was the key to all
> objectives.

80% still seems to be a magic number for many. I like 90% for some goals and even 70% as interim. That may be all I can accomplish in one year. *But* I’d not put 70% again the next year…

> He then moved to kindergarten and was still on an IEP, it
> reads basically the same as the preschool one but has more
> objectives, but the same goal. Also, the speech and lang is
> cut from 2 hours to 1 hour per week. It stays the same until
> 2nd grade where it changes to “Improve reading and language
> arts skills”

I was afraid of this. You have no idea what intervention works because you don’t know what they’ve really done, if anything. They have certainly met all the goals and objectives. Parents who see IEP’s s/same g n o’s yr after yr must stand up and say “no” to this.

> Speech and lang is no longer mentioned. I can’t seem to find
> any discussion of the goals being met, he is still having the
> same problems now as when he was three and four. So I don’t
> think therapy has been successful, I think his success is
> from him, I think he has learned to compensate on his own.

Brains are wired to try to build a new pathway when one is unavailable. Amazing things happen to brain-injured people. The brain does rewire in many instances.

> I have all his evals exept the preschool one, if one was
> done. The first one I have is the one I posted from 2nd
> grade. He has a speech and lang and woodcock johnson.

If you have all that, you might wish to visit with a parent advocate (or higher, an attorney) if you are so inclined. They will tell you what are your rights in your state at this time. You must decide how much hassle your family is able to consume before comming apart. Mine had a low threshhold.

> When he reads he can not seem to decode words. He reads
> incredibly slow and if he doesn’t know a word he guess’s it.
> When he is listening to someone else he does better, his long
> term retrieval is a strength. so once he gets the info in, it
> is there for good.

Okay. At this point, catching up will take a long time. I advocate for literacy at all cost, however, in the meantime, he needs to have some accommodations/modifications to get him through the content areas.

> His strengths are his willingness to help. He is so
> considerate and kinds. I can’t say that he really has an
> academic strenght at this point becuase he really doesn’t
> like school and hasn’t done very well there in a long time.
> There was a period where he really liked science but not
> anymore. His “best” subject is math. He seems to understand
> the math concepts better than anything else.

Your description brings tears to my eyes on several levels. I’m glad math is a relative strength. It will serve him well in working with his hands. Why does he need to “get the academics together” in order to have instruction in the vo-techc program? That is often a subtle discrimination.

My late brother was dyslexic and good with his hands. He became a plastic injection mold maker. Owned his own business. Earned *major* big bucks! (The ones that don’t have their own business earn great bucks!) Let us not discount the earning power of the creative person who is good with their hands!

I am, however, distressed about basic literacy here. Do everything you can to make that happen.

I would like to see him make some strides with his academics for two reasons.
The first is becuae even though he will be at the vocational school and he will be taking 2 weeks of vocational training, during the academic weeks he will need to take one to two theory classes a day, depening on what vocational shop he chooses. I don’t want him to become discouraged becuase he can’t keep up with the math and reading.

Also, I want him to feel successful. He gets so down on himself and you can see the disappointment and frustration in his eyes. I want to see him happy especially when he has to go to school.

I have thought about an atty. We did hire an atty this past year but he turned out to be less than I had hoped for. He feels that it is best to accept the new IEP as written and wait three to four months before even having a meeting. I totally disagree with this as does the Dr. who performed the independent eval. I received a list of atty in my area from Pete Wright and I might just send out some feelers to a few different atty’s an see what happens.

I don’t want to spook the new vocational school and have them send him back but I don’t want the school to not be resonsilbe for what has gone on. I know that too some it might seem like a waste of time to fight the school but they need to be a part of remediating my brother at the vocational school or elseswhere.

Thanks you,
K.

Maybe you could talk with someone to see if a 504 plan would help in Vo-tech for accom/mod.

Also, any book is available on tape. They can be rented from a place in St. Louis called Talking Tapes for the Blind and Dyslexic. The rental fee is very, very reasonable. Accommodate him through the information he needs right now to be successful.

Class notes could be done on NCR paper. (Do they take notes in Vo-Tech? )

I agree with you, don’t wait 3-4 months. Help him be successful now. Work out the accoms/mods he will require…he has a right to them!

Then, if reading isn’t at least a comfortable 5th grade level, find a private tutor who know LmB. Check the Jr. Colleges. Many are opening reading clinics. I worked at one in my area that used LmB. Does school have anyone with the LiPS training? (You may not feel great about them applying anymore interventions…)

I wish I had pursued the remediation more before the start of 8th grade. Since he is only at a 3rd grade reading level, school is going to be tough. I am trying very hard to get him to do the advanced code in Reading Reflex with me. Also, we are trying to get him private speech and lang therapy through his insurance.

The following is the list of accommodations that are currently in his IEP.

Assistance with and or adapted reading material across the curriculum.
Continue to encourage self advocacy skills, (recognizing and understanding his own strengths)
Provide assistance for organization, long-term projects, making sure homework can be done independently.
Long-term projects are to be given as follows: periodic checks by instructor to ensure “Fred” is on task.
Long-term projects are to be accepted based on what is turned in.
Grading is to be done by process of that the student understands about the material at hand.
Directions given in any format necessary re: written, type written, and/or oral, to accommodate “Fred”
Additional work examples provided.
Practice test or examples provided before test is administered. For example, the night before an exam.
Spacing increased between test items.
Visual cues (arrows and stop signs) provided on test forms to show order of test questions.
Student cued to remain on task.
Reminders to maintain effective posture for writing.
Stimuli reduced re: number of items on desk limited.
Take test un-timed.
Assitive technology (including alpha smart and FM system)
Modify or reduce written work to accommodate his rate of written output.
Use of scribe.
Oral test options or other method of evaluations to accurately assess what “Fred” has learned rather than what he can read or write.
Opportunities to demonstrate learning through a variety of mediums.
Frequent review and clarification.
Preferential seating after consultation between “Fred” and his instructors.
Use of calculator to check work.
Weekly progress reports for teachers and special education teachers.
Home to school monitoring notebook for recoding daily and long term assignments.
Homework assignments reduced in volume of work.
Provide extra set of texts for home use.
Provide texts on tape including but not limited to classroom textbooks.
Graded on content, not penalized for errors in mechanics of writing.
Opportunities to correct errors.
Use of tape recorder.
Positive written and or verbal feedback.
Letters, meetings, phone calls, and progress reports used to contact parents regarding “Fred”.
Specifically designed instruction.

Math:
Concrete examples.
Drill and practice.
Use of fact charts.
Use of calculator to check work.
Modify or reduce amount of work give (re: odd or even problems) on papers and tests.
Step by step guide for remembering computations steps.
Use of graph paper or lined paper on its side to help line up problems.

I saw lots & lots…what a list! But I didn’t see access to recorded books. Since parents can get them so much cheaper than schools (unless the book is new, and many now come w/accompanying CD), I’d get those for home. Then he can listen to assignments in the evenings.

How is the PG working out for you?

PG is working fairly well with my 6 yr old. I think I am moving a little to slow. I know they say it should only take twelve hours, but I think that is unrealistic.

My son does enjoy it and when I have questions I usually go to the ReadAmerica website and post on the discussion board. They have been very helpful so far. Shay was also incredibly helpful, part of my concern was that Iwas going to not do the program right and make the problems worse, she was very reassuring that I would do fine (Thanks, Shay)

So far so good. Now if I could just get my brother to do the advanced code that would be even better!!

Thanks
K.

There is a formula for figuring the Full Scale but it is not an average of the two scores. I think a criterion referenced test gives more usable information for a measurement of progress. If the IEP states that they will read a 100 word text sample at a 4th grade level with fewer than 5 errors in X amount of time and the documentation shows that they reached that level of mastery then you can see progress. A norm referenced test compares a score to the scores of the norming group. A set of criterion referenced scores will compare one students scores oover time. I think this is much more information for a particular student.

I understand that but if this child’s ability (IQ) is in the 70’s range then his Woodcock scores are not out of line.

His standard scores look commensurate with I.Q. scores.

There has to be some way for a school to evaluate which students are capable of higher and lower achievement. For all of its weaknesses, IQ still works pretty well.

This boy does not exhibit a disrepancy, so I am not clear on whether this family has a case they can win or whether the school has wronged this child.

We are not all the same. We don’t all get the same grades, excell in the same areas, no matter how much we WISH all children could become excellent at reading and math, now everyone does. This is just life on the planet and part of the human experience.

Agreed; but has the school really explained the testing to the family and student? Hopefully, the independent eval. to which K. referred will do this and help with future planning.

I hope that the independent eval helps. I have a hard time depending on the school for anything.

I sat over the weekend and read meeting notes and IEP from preschool to present and it was pretty depressing. Even though there are points where his teacher questions whethr or not he has other disabilities other than ADD, which he never actaully had, the comments go unnoticed. A lot of what went on is before my family realized we needed to be more assertive, there was a lot of just sitting back and trusting the professional.

They never actually said that my brother had any problems, in every single meeting note it says, “Older brother has ADD” (Which he also didn’t have) but never says, “This child has ADD” Unfortunately, there really is no way to compare the begining to the end. He only received speech and lang testing until 2nd grade and didn’t receive an IQ until 7th grade. I read recently about Matthew afffect and I am sure that had he been tested in kindergarten or first grade that there would be a significant difference in scores.

Also, considering the independent eval Dr. said that he is a child who obviously has not received the proper education and the review of his papers, I believe she is right.

I don’t want to start a giant fight but on the other hand, why should the school “get away”with doing this to a child. From day one he was entitled to his FAPE, and I don’t think he got that.

Thanks
K.

Your son is younger than the kids Read America talks about remediating that quickly. He is really at the age that kids learn to read. I am doing PG with my five year old and we have probably spent 12 hours and he still doesn’t really read. He does segment and blend though.

Also, my nonld older daughter really didn’t read until first grade. She is an avid reader now at 11. I have to hide books from her if I want her to go to sleep. i I realize now though that she had all the prereading skills in place in K, although she had never been taught explicitly. That is what has to be done systematically with LD kids. So you are catching the problem before it totally manifests itself.

Beth

I guess a big concern for me is that when he gets to school in September, he will start getting confused because the teacher is going to start teaching him how to learn using, A, “AH”, Apple, he really doesn’t understand that way and if we are doing PG, he is going to get confused??

I don’t know how to solve this problem?? I would love to be able to teach him PG in school while the other kids are learning the other way but don’t know if that would be an acceptable solution??

Thanks
K.

Well, kids need to learn the letter names too—no matter what PG says. You might spend some time teaching him letter names and explain that this is where the teacher is likely to start in fall. Tell him that different people teach differently and you like the way you are doing it because it gets kids reading faster. Maybe if he has a framework, he won’t get confused.

Do you know anything about the program the teacher will use? My kids had lots of phonics worksheets in first grade. There was nothing really inconsistent between that approach and PG. Yes, the language was a bit different but you still are talking about sounds and symbols. I would explain that to your son.

If he proves to be acquiring reading at a rate slower than other kids, you might then talk to the teacher about alternatives, including the possibility of tutoring him during reading. But with what you have done this summer, you might find that he does just fine. (wouldn’t that be nice!)

We will have the same thing with our five year old.

Beth

The letter names were a huge stumbling block for my son. He would revert back to letter names all the time when reading, using the name rather than the sound to sound out the word. He couldn’t seem to stop himself.

It took my son a while to get it and although I started in March 1.5 years ago, he didn’t start to “get it” until the summer of that year when we banished the letter names.

He knows his letter names but not in the context of reading or even spelling. He spells with the sounds. When I tell him how to spell a word he doesn’t know, I spell the word with the sounds. He spells with the sounds and writes with the sounds in mind. He can convert those sounds to names but it is almost like how someone who is learning a second language converts the second language into their mother tounge. The sounds have to become the mother tounge. They have to become automatic.

Victoria talks alot about overlearning. Creating a certain automaticity to certain skills math facts, phonics etc. (These posts have helped me alot thanks Victoria) For ld kids I would extend this out to even more basic skills such as spacing letters on the page correctly. We discussed this on the other thread when we talked about how the higher brain has to do the work for the lower brain for skills that in everyone else is automatic.
All of my current interventions are about making that which is not automatic automatic.

That is interesting!! With a kid who the letter names were a big stumbling block, I would approach it differently. We haven’t got to automaticity with my son but he can spell words with the letters or with sounds. He actually prefers the letters and gets mad when I make him do sounds. He never used the letter names when sounding out when reading, however.

Of course, your child has got to grade level with PG and my has not. Our kids are all so complex.

Beth

I don’t know what program they use. In kindergarten there wasn’t a specific program used only a lot of papers, a different letter each day. It was basically writing the letter and then coming up with words that started with that letter. He had a hard time with this concept and that is when the teacher recommended his eval.

I do now from last year that the 8 first graders could all read by the end of the year. I don’t want him to start to fell stigmatized “Why can’t I read”!!

I recently brought the IEP down to the school so they could read it. I have to call and see what they think.

Thanks
K.

I don’t know what program they use. In kindergarten there wasn’t a specific program used only a lot of papers, a different letter each day. It was basically writing the letter and then coming up with words that started with that letter. He had a hard time with this concept and that is when the teacher recommended his eval.

I do now from last year that the 8 first graders could all read by the end of the year. I don’t want him to start to fell stigmatized “Why can’t I read”!!

I recently brought the IEP down to the school so they could read it. I have to call and see what they think.

Thanks
K.

IQ is suppose to be the measure of potential. This score should not vary over the lifetime of an individual. If you want to buy this - great. Many of us question IQ scores but we don’t have another measure that helps with placements. If a child has an IQ in the mentally retarded range - that should mean they will be mentally retarded for life and the gifted end is the same. Average IQ used to be 90 - 110. Gifted in most areas is around 126 and MR tends to be around 68. LD doesn’t go by the IQ but the descrepancy between IQ and achievement.

Beth,

He needs to get to automaticity with the sounds. It isn’t easy. It took a long time.

I think some kids flip back and forth between letters and sounds easily. Some just don’t.

If he continues to struggle with reading I would really push for automaticity in seeing the letter symbols as sounds. An auditory processing deficit makes this hard but not impossible. Even though he never uses the letter names to sound out I would wonder if he is seeing the letters as symbols then having to convert them to sound in his head. You are only seeing the end product.

If he is doing this it could explain why he continues to struggle with reading. He is puting in unneccesary extra effort with that conversion step. It is just a thought.

I think that is where my confusion comes from.

My brothers Iq scores are fairly similar to his achievement scores but I only have one IQ score to go on, so it is hard to look back and make any kind of comparision.

Also, with my son, I don’t know how to compare his IQ and acheivement becuase he received the Brigance for achievememt. I received age equivelants, no standard scores or percentile ranks. Does the Brigance offer those types of scores??

Thanks
K.

standard scores are the easiest to make comparisons because they make the most sense when comparing the IQ. You can get a percentile rank for both and make the comparison. The Brigance should have a way to get a standard score. A school psy. should be able to get what you need to make comparisons. As far as the IQ score, you probably have the full scale score. which reflects both the performance and verbal score. If IQ and achievement are close in numbers the presence of a learning disability probably doesn’t exist. There may be other problems interferring with learning.

K.
I’ve been following your brother’s story through your various postings—perhaps not completely—so I have some questions, which you may have covered in the past. I’m not an expert but a number of things in the story don’t fall together for me.

First, a 77IQ is not MR and since even MR kids can learn to read, why can’t your brother? I just don’t think the school district has an excuse here.

Second, I find the CELF scores interesting—his receptive language scores are now lower than his expressive scores—I understand this is not that common. Is it at all possible your brother has CAPD—frequently a cause for inability to pick up phoenemic awareness? (One indicator of problems would come from the scores on the Test of Auditory Perceptual Skills—or TAPS—especially the auditory processing subtest, assuming they gave this as a part of the language battery. Really low score here could also mean ADD—my son’s went from 1%ile to 50%ile almost immediately with Adderall.) Has he been tested for CAPD? It is not that expensive and is usually covered by insurance. Perhaps doing FastForward would help him catch on to the Phonographix easier. If you could show CAPD, maybe the district would pay for FFW.

Another thing that puzzles me is that you say he is good at fixing things and yet his PIQ is lower than his VIQ—what are the subtest scores? For example, is the PIQ being brought down by a low coding score (often common in kids with reading problems)? Some people have success improving these problems with vision therapy. Have you pursued that angle or some of the other sorts of things people here have tried like Audiblox?

Finally, you have conveyed many concerns about him getting into the vocational course and meeting the academic demands it may pose. Have you thought about pulling him out of school for a year and homeschooling him with remediation techniques so he could then enjoy some relative success once he starts in the vocational school? Does he want to succeed enough that he would agree to basically take a year off from school and have you remediate him to fix some basic problems? (BTW—I think the school district owes you big time on this one and should essentially pay private specialists to do all this or for a private school that would, but that’s not usually how it works out. Would you be ready to take on the remediating responsibility?)

I’m wondering who you are? Great post whoever you are?

Author: Wondering
Date: 07-29-02 18:16

He was found to have CAPD, he was tested by a trained audiologist. However, he wasn’t tested until 7th grade and he was not tested on the advice of the school, it was suggested by the special ed advocate.

Here are some more test scores:

2nd Grade
CELF: Subtests
Word Structure 11
Sentence Structure 13
Linguistic Concepts 10
Oral Directions 8

Word Association 11
Recalling Sentences 5
Formlated Sentences 7

The person who tested him did not give a total scores or total subtest scores
In second grade he also had the

Test of auditory processing skill, his percentile rank was 21%, no other score was given but it also says auditory ward and number memory.
Wepman test of Auditory Discrimination -2SD, only score given
Token test for Children .501?, only score given
Test of Auditory Analysis, begining of kindergarten, only score given.
Test of Problem solving, TOPS, PR 40%

4th Grade
CELF
Concepts and Directions 11
Word Classes 8
Semantic Relationships 11
Listening to Paragraphs 14

Formulated Sentences 10
Recalling Sentences 9
Sentence Assembly 8
Word Associations 9
Rapid Autonaming was well above the time limit, errors allowed.

Receptive score 100
Expressive score 94
total score 96

Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test-R, SS 98 45th percentile
Expressive one word picture vocabulary test, SS 122, 93th percentile, but it says that this test scores high.

Test of problem solving, TOPS: SS 54
Wepman TEst of Auditory Discrimination, Standard Deviation -2SD
Test of Auditory Analysis Skills, TAAS, Score 6, middle of first grade
Alpha test of phonology, ALPHA, vowelization and glottatlizations
Test of apraxia of speech and oral apraxia, no score given

7th grade
Concept and Directions 6
Word Classes 5
Semantic Relationship 8

Formulated Sentences 9
Recalling Sentences 7
Sentences Assmebly 11

Receptive score 78
Expressive score 94

Total score 85

Test of Problem Solving, TOPS SS 84 PR 16
Peabody Picture Vocab Test SS 102 PR 47
Test of Auditory Analysis, TAAS, No score given
Yopp Singer Test of Phoneme Segmentions, No score

He is not very concerned with school in the sense that he is sick of getting services and who can blame him, obviously he hasn’t received anything great. I want to know everything and anything heading into the new school year and also when I meet with the IEE Dr.

Also, the SLP who gave the speech and lang, did both 2nd and 4th grade. She told me to my face that she understood that my brother had CAPD but never said anything.

Thanks
K

There is a new law that might help you. Perhaps you should read the new “No Child Left Behind” law.
One of it’s main points is that schools should use scientificly proven techniques. It will be interesting to see this law tested in the courts, not that you are ready to go there but read more about this law and bring it up. Type, No Child Left Behind into google.
Also, show that you are knowledgable about what the current research says. I gave that information to you in the above post. Research supports phonemic awareness instruction which means phonographix type programs.
If they see that you know what you are talking about they may be more inclined to give appropriate services.

No, the Brigance is very useful for assessing needs and progress but should not be used to qualify a child for LD. It is a criterion referenced test. It is not normed (to my knowledge). The WJ-III is the most often used test for the achievement portion of an evaluation.

Janis

I have not seen Susan’s post to you, but this is exactly what I use the Brigance for…to determine exactly what a child can and cannot do. Then I will often use these skills as the basis for my IEP.

Janis

I asked for the Woodcock Johnson when they did the eval and was told that he was too young, 5.10 yrs old.

I thought the test has a starting age of 2.0 to something like 90+ years. I don’t know if it is worth requesting it, I am not sure what else it would show. It is clear from the speech and lang that my son has CAPD issues ( he is having the CAPD eval done by an audtiologist in September)

Other than having something to compare the IQ too. Also, he attends private school so testing is done at the public school at public expense!

K.

It doesn’t appear the Brigance was used at all in developing my son’s IEP. He scored above his age on everything except upper and lower case letters, 5.3, and numerals, 5.3

Learning letters and numbers was not addressed at all. Just speech and lang once a week for 30 minutes.

Also, this is the same school and some of the same people who worked with my brother, so trust is a big issue for me.

K.

Oh, I remember your situation now. Yes, it would be impossible to get a LD discrepancy in reading, writing, or math on the WJ when a child is only 5 years old. I had my child tested with it at 6 and it was still too early to get the needed discrepancy. I think you are definitely doing the right thing by using Phono-Graphix. I’d never depend on a public school to remediate. The same with your brother. I think it is fine to get an independent eval, but really, it is difficult to know his true ability level since no IQ was done before 7th grade. With a 77 full scale IQ, you will have a tough time fighting the school because that is a below average IQ and it would be expected that a child would be functioning below his peers. You can’t really prove Matthew effect if you don’t have an earlier, higher IQ score.

I think it is geat that you are being pro-active with your own child. Early intervention is often the key to success.

Janis