gap between verbal and non-verbal IQ

My son has a similar gap…though, now at ten, the gap is much narrowed.

The specific learning disability you are hearing about may be NLD. But, it is more than just the split that leads to an NLD diagnosis. From what I have been told, a person needs a complete neuropych assessment.

Try www.nldline.com. There are support services and information for both adults and parents with NLD children on the website.

I think the site makes the diagnosis sound much worse than it actually is, particularly for someone who has a superior verbal and average non-verbal. So, don’t let it scare you too much.

I hope this helps.

Margo

Also, such gaps are not uncommon in higher IQ individuals and in those who have difficulties with motor skills. As Margo pointed out, NLD is one diagnosis that comes to mind, but much more is required to diagnose it than an IQ split.

That’s similar to my profile as well. All my life I’ve struggled with math. I don’t visualize things well. My strengths are clearly in the verbal area. I’ve taught students with this same profile as well.

You got some good suggestions from another poster about the site for NLD or NLVD and that could be worth checking out to flesh out your thoughts on IQ split.

A spread of only 12 points is statistically significant. So, yes 2.5x that score is *way* significant and often indicates that the persons brain has some huge strengths and some areas that are keeping them from functioning at their highest.

Of more significant importance is looking at how people perform tasks are the Factor Index Scores on the WAIS or WISC. Some examiners don’t figure them. I always encourage them to be included because they demonstrate these areas (briefly):

Verbal Comprehension
(General Knowledge and vocabulary, crystalized intelligence)

Perceptual Organization
(Non-verbal reasoning, Visual processing, fluid reasoning)

Processing Speed
(Attention, concentration, psychomotor speed, some fluid reasoning)

Freedom From Distractibility
(Short-term auditory memory for numbers, concentration, attention to numbers tasks

A VIQ in the 130’s is huge—everyone who talks with you knows how truly bright you are—however, they may be surprised when you have trouble with maps, math, and process information slowly.

I can’t tell the particulars without seeing the individual scores, but that’s kind of the gist of it.

That was very helpful Susan, thank you. Both boys have significantly higher perceptual organization and processing speed then they do verbal comprehension and freedom from distractability, this coincides with their strengths and weaknesses. Thanks.

Interesting. I always learn something from Susan.

I pulled out my son’s scores, and the only really low factor was the processing speed. He had high verbal , average perceptual, and above average freedom from distractibility. What is psychomotor speed? Does that relate to Coding and other measures of graphomotor ability?
Thanks!

Susan,

Can you figure these indexes from the standard scores on the IQ test? If so, do you know the formula of what gets added together? I am curious.

Beth

Susan, my youngest sons factor index scores are:

Verbal comp: 84
Perceptual oran: 105
Freedom from distract: 75
Processing speed: 106

His other 3 scores are:

FSIQ: 92
VIQ: 82
PIQ: 104

His strengths in school are science and math. His weaknesses are reading and spelling. His strength on the verbal portion was similarities with a score of 9. Lowest score on this portion was digit span with a score of 5. On performance his strength was picture completion with a score of 13 his weakness was coding and picture arrangement with scores of 9. His official dx is PDD-NOS. My question is with a good coding score like he has but his poor crystalized intelligence what types of therapies do you find that helps students like this? IE-nueronet, pace, IM, ect? He does receive individual speech, group speech, and social work services at school.

An interesting side note. His brothers strength on the performance part of the WISC was picture arrangement with a score of 12 with his weak areas being picture completion and coding with scores of 9. Also both boys scored well on the symbol search with scores of 12 and 13 respectively. Mind understanding of the symbol search score is that it tests visual-motor quickness, concentration, and persistence. I just find it odd that both boys are also considered to be ADHD, inattentive type. You would not think an ADD person to be able to concentrate and be peristant. I know this scoree is accurate though because both boys teachers comment that one of their strengths is their constant persistence to get things done.

There are many testing psychologists who feel that the indexes and subtest cluster and subtest scores are not the most important or valid way of interpreting the WISC; I would always advise the person to go back to the original evaluator and ask them for an interpretation of their child’s scores. On a separate note the person we used to review our son’s testing said that often very very bright kids have a bigger “spread” with V>P(ie V in the very superior range and P in the high average range) and this is not diagnostic of NVLD, in the absence of all the other factors.

Our son was just evaluated by school and they indicated he appears to have NVLD. I have never heard of this and when I looked it up, it indicates that along with the gap in VIQ & PIQ there is often a motor deficit. He is very coordinated. Information also indicates a social deficit…while there are certain areas of social behavior where he is weak (ie excessive talking, interruption, transitioning from one situation to another, he does make and keep friends easily. They indicated his scores were 88 VIQ and 45 PIQ. Does this sound like NVLD?

Hmm..that is interesting. I was also diagnosed with mild visual spatial-motor disability, or something like that. I also have difficulties with mental processing speed. The Psychologist suggested that part of the gap could be explained by major recurring depression. So, I have decided that I will talk to the university Psychologist and see if we can’t get to the bottom of this. Also I am considering whether anti-depressant medication is neccesary. Thanks for all the good infomation. I will look at NLD site.

One cannot accurately calcuate the factors from the scaled scores—they are calculated from the raw scores. However, we can “estimate” from the standard scores (and the manual…not just the average of Scaled Scores), Remember, just a soft guestimate w/out raw scores.

Here are the subtests that load on each factor:

VCI - Inf, Sim, Comp, Voc

POI - Pic Compl, Pic Arr, Block Des, OA

FDI - Dig Span, Arith

PSI - Coding, Symbol Search

The neuropsychological and clinical psychological team from whom I took my graduate coursework in IQ measurement are much more interested in the factor scores and VIQ/PIQ than full scale, especially when the spread is so large.

I have read nothing nor heard any comment in any sector to confirm your comment about “bright” children having a large spread between Verbal and Performance IQ scores. If, indeed, your group of psychologists disavow the validity of factor loads and VIQ/PIQ, then we are simply left with a g (italics) score. Bright children come in different IQ wrappings, in my studies.

Absolutely, the person who gave the assessment is the best individual to tell parents how the child performed. If that person isn’t available or there is some other issue, the parent has the right to ask whomever they choose for further information. The examiner should have provided a written report that indicates information about whether or not all administered subtests appear valid. Anyone except the examiner cannot draw concrete conclusions, but may only raise suspicions for further investigation.

Your son may be more mild than the “textbook case.” As I’m sure you know, it isn’t as exact a science as everyone would prefer.

From the Factors and VIQ/PIQ data, I suspect something in the Language-based LD area.

Fortunately for you, the therapies for this are more straight forward: language therapy, lots of language, language, language. Looks like a reasonable candidate for some form of multi-sensory phonics; however, without seeing the student and doing some particular reading tests, one cannot be certain. That is the difficulty with working on line: we cannot see/meet/get to know the student.

I wish you luck in finding some things to help you!

Susan Long

I would be very careful interpreting and getting advice on test scores over the internet; you only know what is posted, and do not even know if the evaluator considered the testing valid; as the original poster admitted, there are many emotional issues which may make testing less than a complete “picture” of the individual.. This web site is a good reference with lots of academic citations; it also contains the templates for looking at academic and IQ testing to determine discrepancies.

Psycho = brain command
motor = muscle movements
graph = write

Psychomotor relates to how the brain commands the movement of the body. Sometimes fine motor is more negatively affected and sometimes it is gross motor. The WISC deals w/fine motor only. (Graphomotor would pertain to only writing movements—pencil grip, letter formation, etc.)

Yes, coding has a pretty hefty fine motor component. Symbol Search not as much. That one is more visual scanning ability.

I remember noticing these problems in your son’s scores but you seemed to be “up” on the issues and what was needed.

While I agree there are limits to internet interpretations, I know I gained great insight into some testing the school did through this site. The school personnel seemed incapable of explaining what they had and the interpretation they gave did not make sense to me.

BTW, I took the scores to a psychologist another professional recommended and I got much more useful information from postings here.

Beth

There are many professionals who will not comment on tests scores via internet postings and I can understand your comments. I have chosen to give some casual ideas in response to parent questions.

Several “schools of thought” exist regarding evaluating test scores. While I concur that normal evaluation of Object Assembly in isolation isn’t a good idea, a 2 on this subtest was a striking contrast to the scaled score average. Even with a .69 subtest reliability coefficient (Sattler, 2001, 4th Ed.), a scaled score of 2 stands out for this kid. Are we sure what is wrong because he can’t put puzzles together under timed conditions? Nope. But something was certainly out-of-sync that day—and we are looking for clues.

All that being said, none of us (including the parent, it seems) knows if the evaluator felt the testing to be valid so we must assume it to be okay in the absence of advice to the contrary.

Would I write a formal report this way. Nope. I don’t write reports on tests I haven’t given. I also do the math and figure the statistical discrepancies. Sattler, Cognitive 4th Ed. is on my desk.

“2” on whose testing? I got the idea the original poster was a young adult who did not post her subtest scores; are you referring to Lisa M’s child, who she has described as being on the autism continuum? Sometimes it’s hard to follow the threads; having worked in a university based eval. clinic I know that testing of students with autism is an art and that interpreting test scores is very difficult in light of their underlying condition.

and not actually this thread. The question was raised by Eleanor about a student with which she is working. Susan answered the question.

Beth

Hello,

My six year old son was just diagnosed with NLD. Everything I have read about it scares me. It sounds like these children cannot interact with people, dont “get” jokes…this does not sound like my son (denial?). His verbal IQ was 124 and performance dropped 28 pts. He also has significant signs of clinical anxiety….could that have something to do with his performance??? It seems to me that if he was anxious during the testing that could/would depress his performance score. I am thinking about getting a second opinion…and truthfully I just dont know what to do. His school has never heard of NLD..and they said with his IQ scores he would not qualify for any special classes at school….any advice would be greatly appreciated..

Sincerely,
shannon

Shannon,

I was in a similar situation last spring. My son has a 30 point gap between his verbal and performance and he does have some of the fine motor, social skills deficits of the NLD kids but his are mild. In other ways he doesn’t look NLD at all, he’s not literal, his math and reading comprehension are his strengths.

First, don’t panic at what the literature says. If it is NLD there is a wide range of ways it manifests itself and much of the literature and research was done a while ago and tends to talk about the most severe cases.

Second, there are other reasons why your son could have that gap. Anxiety is definitely one of them. My son was extremely anxious during testing and can be anxious in general. This of course can cause the social awkwardness we see. So can other types of learning disabilities.

And there are kids that don’t fit well into a box. There are several mom’s of such “puzzle kids” on this board so if your child is touch to figure out you’ve come to the right place.

I am posting my subtest scores. Hopefully, someone here may have some insight into what they mean.

Test Results:
Results from the WAIS-III are as follows

Verbal Subtest Scale Scores Performance Subtest Scale Scores

Information 16 Picture Completion 13
Similarities 16 Digit Symbol 06
Arithmetic 17 Picture Arrangement 10
Comprehension 12 Block Design 11
Digit Span 11 Matrix Reasoning 16
Vocabulary 18

Verbal IQ: 134 (.05: 128-138) 99.0% (Very Superior Classification)
Performance IQ: 107 (.05: 100-113) 68.0% (Above Average Classification)
Full Scale IQ: 123 (.05: 118-127) 94.0% (Superior Classification)

If anyone could help me understand this better I would appreciate it.
Thank You

I personally have a big problem with interpretation over the internet, and especially with teachers posting scores of their students; psych. testing is confidential and protected info.

In what state are you located? Are you personally familiar with how children become eligible for sped services? Just because a kid has a superior or gifted IQ level, doesn’t mean they cannot qualify (in most states). Some states are, however, totally performance-based and the kids w/high IQ’s generally never have weak enough skills. It is like measuring everyone’s average versus your child’s ability.

> Verbal Subtest Scale Scores Performance Subtest
> Scale Scores
>
> Information 16 Picture Completion 13
> Similarities 16 Digit Symbol 06
> Arithmetic 17 Picture Arrangement 10
> Comprehension 12 Block Design 11
> Digit Span 11 Matrix Reasoning 16
> Vocabulary 18

Anything that can be done verbally by you is going to look totally stellar. On any task in which there is a motor component, you perform much lower—more like the average person overall. Have you had any head injuries ever?

The fact that comprehension looks more like your performance scores could be an indicator of Non-Verbal LD. I think, though, your wonderful analytical skills cover up what could be more average social skills.

Tell me: While you were doing the block design (with the red/white blocks), did you run out of time on any of them? How did you feel about the task? What was difficult/easy?

> Verbal IQ: 134 (.05: 128-138) 99.0% (Very

You are quite talented when presented with verbal tasks and problems.

> Superior Classification)
> Performance IQ: 107 (.05: 100-113) 68.0% (Above Average

You perform more average on tasks requiring visual spatial, perceptual organization, and/or psychomotor speed.

Classification)
> Full Scale IQ: 123 (.05: 118-127) 94.0% (Superior
> Classification)

You’d make one heck of a trial lawyer! :-)

I thought that posting was wound somewhere in this thread. I frequently cannot find my way through the threads unless I spend a great deal of time.

When the scores are this high overall, ,such that even the lower areas for a person are still average or above, is the gap as meaningful? Clearly this person has gifted verbal skills so couldn’t he/she just be a bright person with a gift instead of a person with a disability? This is a serious question, b/c the question of the gap meaning different things in the gifted has come up before.

Yes, and it has different answers depending upon the age of the individual; this poster sounds like a young adult with issues to work on(I suspect tht’s why testing was done); if you were using these scores to qualify your child for special ed. services it wouldn’t work(and NVLD isn’t in the Federal definition of disabilities). It depends on whether the individual is struggling with school or work or functioning just fine(in which case their “giftedness” might not have resulted in testing at all).

I have a similar gap, but with such “high” scores in both areas (keep in mind that “average” is 90-110), presumably, one has the “wattage” to compensate for the lower scoring area. That’s been my personal experience (very “high” verbal score, merely “above average” non-verbal score). When I consider all the individuals who really have serious struggles, such a gap doesn’t even concern me.

I agree with what SAR is saying, however, I’m going to respond a little differently.

Is such a gap meaningful to the person who has the gap? Yes, it can explain why they have such a difference in functioning—why they don’t feel so smart when they do certain things and why other things are a cake-walk. Will this gap in and of itself get them services or qualified for anything? Nope.

For school services, there must be that gap in functioning on school-related things: reading (basic reading and reading comp), math (calc and applied problems), written language, oral language, listening comprehension.

Using the PIQ or VIQ instead of the full scale when there is a >15 point spread is, in my opinion, important. Using the full scale penalizes the person for their own inabilities and isn’t reflective of their true abilities. (Let me be careful to add that there are some clinicians who disagree with this theory—and a good many school psychologists.)

There are many people who do not believe in gifted LD. None of them, I might add, are gifted adults with LD. I know many such folks and they are genius-functioning on some things and then just wow ‘ya with something they can’t do. Messes up their self-image and career. Most work at jobs well below their potential. Marriages struggle. It does affect their lives.

The WISC/WAIS doesn’t tell it all either.

I’ve been spending time lately with alot of parents of kids at my son’s (regular) school who happen to have a variety of learning and sensory issues And the subject keeps coming up that many of us 30-40 year old adults have uneven skills or issues that have caused us to make certain life choices. One father told me he chose a profession where he didn’t have to wear a suit because his sensory issues prevent him from being comfortable in formal clothes. Of course when we were kids we didn’t know we had IQ gaps, or SID or ADD. The only adults ( and granted this is a group of high functioning educated people) with identified problems were the one’s that couldn’t read well as children - and they all refer to themselves as dyslexic.

We just used to think that some folks aren’t good at math. Well, that’s true; however, there may be a brain processing reason for it. In today’s more high-tech world, it is good to know who may need more help in order to keep moving along the instructional sequence. Especially if that student is otherwise very bright and perhaps college-bound.

It was a simpler world then…yet, I like knowing more. The information is power concept.

I missed one of the block design problems because of an angulation, but I did not run out of time. I’m not sure there was a time limit. I did not run out of time on any of the sections. However, the psych said that, I didn’t get any bonus points for speed. In fact, the reason I scored lower was not that I didn’t do well on the performace tasks, I just did them slowly. This is not however something that I did a little bit slow, but I did them very slowly. Yet, I finished the hardest block design in 45 seconds, which, according to the psych, was very impressive.

Sometimes, I wonder if this isn’t something caused by a head injury. I fell out of a two story window when I was around 1 year old.

Also, it is interesting that you would bring up being a trial lawyer. I recently changed my major to Political Science, and I am considering Law School.

I suspected processing speed. Did they give you any other tests? The WAIS isn’t the best of measures without a motor component. Symbol Search has less motor than coding. Did you have that subtest?

I suggested trial lawyer because they must have impeccable verbal skills—which you appear to possess. Get through the math/science and you’re home free!

Thanks for sharing part of you with us. I wish you good luck in figuring out how to best follow your personal legend.

Susan Long